Talk:Fourth wall

I was wondering, couldn't the elistment posters with uncle sam saying "I want you" be considered to be breaking the 4th wall, because he is adressing the audience. I think it is, but would like some oppinions.--KinKornKarn 06:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No. There is no narrative, no character, no set. It's just a static image, which never sets up a fourth wall in the first place. There are tens of thousands of images where the subject is staring directly out of the picture (just visit a portrait gallery and see!) but the concept of the fourth wall does not apply here. Coyote-37 09:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh alright, I was simply wondering because he seems to be adressing the audience, but since it is a static image it doesn't apply. --KinKornKarn 15:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

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Um, don't you guys think Droopy the Dog breaks the fourth wall in almost every single episode of the cartoons he appears in? He usually says something along the lines of "Hello, all you happy people. You know what? I'm the hero." to the audience. Don't you think this should be mentioned in the article? 202.51.187.25 10:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Almost every cartoon character from that era does the same thing. It's not unusual. Only a very few explanitory examples are needed here. Read the comments below and see List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall for a bit of background to this discussion. Thanks thoughCoyote-37 14:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

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Erm, under Literature, there is the following: The Illuminatus trilogy ends with FUCKUP determining that the events are all part of a book.

Fairly sure this is vandalism, though I can't find the original version. Flatluigi

There really is a, well, character called FUCKUP in The Illuminatus! Trilogy. I wikified the entry to make this clearer. -- Tobias Bergemann 13:31, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

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Isn't the "fourth wall" originally a theatrical term? I always presumed that the "wall" in question is the invisible plane that exists at the front of the stage, which the viewer is looking through. The fact that it can be extended to literature and film and other arts doesn't necessarily exclude this, of course. soulpatch

Yeah, I think you're right. I'll add your sentence right now. Brecht called it alienation. But it's too useful not to apply it outside the stage. Ortolan88

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Ooh, I love Duck Amuck. And Daffy in general.  :-) -- Zoe

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The Bob and George comic is famous because of the fourth wall brakeing,go read it someday.--68.53.21.41

I did go and read a bit of it. An elaborate in-joke on first impression. Why not write an article about it for Wikipedia, explaining the fourth wall stuff and anything else good about it and then link to that? Just a link to a web page is kind of disappointing. Ortolan88

Good idea!! But it may take awile.--68.53.21.41

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Woody Allen breaks the fourth wall a number of times in one of his early films with his wife... anybody remember which? --DennisDaniels 04:00, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Annie Hall is the one that springs to mind. --Paul A 08:18, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Another example (which really messes with the whole concept) is Last Action Hero starring Arnold Schwarzenegger.

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Doesn't The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy "break the fourth wall" by referring to itself many times? -- Paddu 20:07, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The novel doesn't refer to itself, it refers to the guide book that it is about. So it's not really breaking the wall. The Singing Badger 14:01, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Are there many such examples of "NOT breaking the fourth wall" though looking confusingly similar? If such a thing is common, I think we should mention in the article an example of "NOT breaking the fourth wall". -- Paddu 17:17, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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Did Sledge Hammer! do it? lysdexia 20:36, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not exactly, though one episode did feature a preliminary voice-over to retcon the fact that basically everyone had been killed by a nuclear explosion in the previous season. This was patently silly, but arguably not part of the show as such. Of course Sledge was a parody, so police show stereotypes would be more-or-less mentioned explicitly, but I don't think it ever got so bad as to acknowledge the fact that the show was just a show. That's just based on memory, though. Maybe some "Hammerites" (I coined the term, but I wouldn't be surprised if it already exists) can sift through their tape collections. :-) JRM 16:54, 2004 Nov 6 (UTC)

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correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Breakfast Of Champions break the fourth wall a lot?--Eel 00:56, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

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I was planning on adding a link to The Complete Works of William Shakespeare (Abridged), but I agree that there are too many examples already. This is such a good example of breaking the fourth wall that I think it should be added, but the article in general probably needs to be trimmed down first. Cswrye 06:23, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Enough with monologues

Over half these examples refer to monologues or narration. Those are only a minor break of the fourth wall, and they are not worth as much mention as they receive on this page.

In general, there are way too many examples on the page.

I agree: 2 or 3 well-chosen examples would be more illustrative. In any case, aren't many of these meta-references rather than strictly "breaking the fourth wall"? RMoloney 00:57, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Somebody should clean this page up.

Into The Woods

Shouldn't somebody add how the narrator is eaten by the gaint in "Into the Woods".

Other significant breaks

How about Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five in which the author himself is a minor character, and Vonnegut specifically notes that that character is the author, or Steve Gerber's Issue of Man Thing in which he is a character.

Major page cleanup and suggested policies

Okay, I decided to be bold and clean up this article. There were far too many examples on this page, and many of them were not even examples of breaking the fourth wall. Some of them even said that they were not real examples of breaking the fourth wall, which makes me wonder why they were added in the first place. Keep in mind that breaking the fourth wall is not necessarily the same as breaking character, meta-reference, metafiction, or self-reference. Be sure that an example doesn't fall into one of the above categories before adding it.

I removed most of the examples and fixed some of the formatting on others. You may think that I hacked too much, but keep in mind that the page was already double the suggested size of a Wikipedia article. If you don't like what I did, I would recommend re-adding the examples that you like instead of reverting. This is not a listing page, so it's not necessary to try to list every single instance of breaking the fourth wall. Only include an example if you think it will help in understanding what the fourth wall is. Here are some suggested policies I have on whether or not to include an example.

1. Make sure that it is not a meta-reference. Most of the examples on the list were actually meta-references, which do not always invovle breaking the fourth wall. Just because a book or movie makes a reference to the fact that it is book or movie does not mean that it is breaking the fourth wall. The best examples are those in which the audience is addressed directly.
2. Only include an example if it is significant. Virtually every TV show has broken the fourth wall at some point or another (especially during Christmas episodes when the characters wish the audience a happy holidays), but that doesn't mean that it belongs on the list. Likewise, a single off-hand comment does not warrant placement on the list. Only include it if breaking the fourth wall is something that is done consistently (such as Malcolm in the Middle), is a significant part of the media (such as Ferris Bueller's Day Off), or is a well-known example (such as Peter Pan).
3. There are some things that, while technically being a breach of the fourth wall, probably are too common to belong on the list. An good example in interactive media is tutorials. Characters may break the fourth wall to explain how to play the game, but this is necessary and ordinary, and it's not a direct part of the story itself. Commercials (and references to commercials) fall into this category as well.
4. Monologues and narration may break the fourth wall, but I would be reluctant to include them on this list. Usually, I only think of something as breaking the fourth wall if it is done by characters in the story within the context of the story, not if it is done as an addendum.

Of course, I'm not a rule-maker, so there's nothing stopping anyone from adding examples anyway. However, I would recommend thinking twice before adding another example. There are already plenty on this article, and we don't want it to get too big again. --Cswrye 20:55, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Good work Chad - I was itching to do what you did but didn't have the cojones to be bold enough. RMoloney 23:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good job, RMoloney, for the additional purges! Maybe we'll finally get this article to a reasonable size, although it seems that people keep adding back the examples we take out. --Cswrye 14:38, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Heartily agree with the comments above, this page is already spiraling out of control again. I think that Chad's rules above make perfect sense- everyone think twice before adding more unnecessary examples of your pet favourite show/movie! I'm going to take an axe to the fat on this page when I get the chance, unless someone wants to jump in ahead of me. . . Coyote-37 15:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Clarissa Explains It All vs. Doug

"On the early 1990s Nickelodeon show Clarissa Explains It All, the fourth wall was broken very frequently, with the main character Clarissa frequently speaking to the audience in segments about her current situation in the plot."

To me, those segments looked more like the "Dear Journal" segments from Doug, another Nick show, than an actual fourth wall breach. If we include Clarissa, we have to include Doug. --Damian Yerrick 01:39, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with either show, and I based my deletions just on the information that was given. Remember that this page is not an exhaustive list of every breach of the fourth wall that's ever happened, so we don't have to include anything. If you think that Doug is a good example, go ahead and re-add it. Don't add it just because it's similar to Clarissa, because if we try to list every incident that the fourth wall was broken, we'll end up in the same situation that we were in before. --Cswrye 05:06, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

I didn't want to include Doug at all. I was arguing the contrapositive: if Doug doesn't qualify then neither does Clarissa. I made the comment because I see directly addressing the audience in the limited manner seen in Clarissa (almost always from the same room, almost always alone) really isn't much different from directly addressing a camcorder containing a tape labeled "Journal". On this view, I'd argue for more deletions. --Damian Yerrick 04:11, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood. I agree that there are still too many examples. I wouldn't be opposed to anyone deleting a few more if they didn't think that they belonged. I've made enough deletions that I probably won't take out any more unless the page gets out of hand again. --Cswrye 07:04, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

Clarissa Explains It All did break the fourth wall, but it did so so freiquently that one might argue that her monologue was more akin to her speaking to herself than to the viewing audience. Still, I'd say it did breakl the fourth wall.

Doug definitely did not break the fourth wall. There was no pretense that he was acknowledging the audience. He was writing to himself. The fourth wall was still present.

Allixpeeke 23:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Cleaning up video games examples

Just deleted the second Metal Gear reference, to in game tutorials. Video game 4th wall violations are fairly tenuous I feel, because the audience (the player) is NEVER passive. If you like, all games break the fourth wall. Some examples are still valid- the first Metal Gear example on this page is a true example of a 4th wall violation, as it makes you think outside the games parameters and into the real world. I cleaned up the in game character getting impatient section as well, removing examples, such as Res Evil & Earthworm Jim, where the avatar simply acts impatient, but doesn't break the 4th wall. The difference is that in Sonic, Sonic stares directly at the player, whereas Jill Valentine or Earthworm Jim do not (though Earthworm Jim's WERE hilarious) Coyote-37 1 July 2005 14:23 (UTC)

Don't want to add more examples but. . .

Also, two key examples that aren't up here spring to mind, but I won't add unless others agree. The She-Hulk comics were renowned for constantly breaking the 4th wall, as She-Hulk would heckle the artist to come up with something more exciting and the like. It was a key feature in the characters popularity, as it made the comic stand out from the others. Also, the moment at the end of Goodfellas when Ray Liotta addresses the audience comes as a shock as it is unprecedented in the film to that point. That one scene has certainly gained a lot of critical attention, so I'm not sure if it might be worth adding to the already crowded films section? Coyote-37 1 July 2005 14:29 (UTC)

How about putting them in, but taking out (at least) two you feel aren't as worthy? RMoloney 16:23, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Nice job on the latest edit RMoloney. I've decided against the Goodfellas reference, the last thing this page needs is more examples. I'm going to trim this even further if I find the time. Hopefully anyone adding to this page will read the discussion first!Coyote-37 10:05, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

First attempt by a newbie to add information

Not sure if this would fit, but in the Burns and Allen sitcom of.. oh about the '50s, Gracie would sometimes start plotting to surprise or fool George. If he thought there was some skullduggery afoot, he would go upstairs to his den, turn on the T.V., and tune into the Burns and Allan show, so he could see what was going on. Bunthorne 22:49, July 21, 2005

See the previous section. The number of examples are actively being reduced. If you add one, you'll have to delete two others. Examples from Moonlighting where they actually go 'through' the fourth wall and the cameras and crew are seen have been deleted multiple times. I don't think they'll bother to leave an example where the television show is merely on the television. Val42 05:10, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Breaking the fourth wall definition is to specific.

Breaking the fourth wall doesnt exclusively refer to acknowledging that it is a production of some sort (whether video game, movie, comic etc) but it is more about taking a piece of art and allowing the audience to experience it in an extra dimentional way (ie a fourth dimentional way). Simply addressing the audience like a Monologue ARE examples of breaking the fourth wall but very minor ones, additionally films like Last Action Hero and games like Viewtiful Joe where the character begin knowing they are in a film or game (respectively) are only barely breaking the Fourth Wall because the entire premise of the film/game is about them being inside a film or a game, fourth wall breaking is unexpected and by definition interupts the regular consumption of the art.

The way it is defined at the moment it doesnt allow for the (IMO) more clever examples such as Memento where the structure of the film (ie played backwards) causes the audience to experience anterograde amnesia like the protagonist has and the 1885 play The Mikado where in Act II the song As some day it may happen is sung by the character Ko-Ko about all the problems he has with society but is re written for each performance satirising current events (when I last saw it they poked fun at the Australian Prime minister and mobile phone users etc). They both arent actively addressing the medium but are certainly breaking the fourth wall allowing the audience to experience the art at a higher level. - UnlimitedAccess 19:39, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to vote for the literal definition as given. I've a few reasons. Firstly, and most importantly, a quick flick through google confirms that this is the way the term is generally understood. Secondly, I don't think the Memento example could be considered any kind of fourth wall break. The structure of the film is what you are referring to here, and is controlled by the director. The director/author is always understood to be telling a story with the audience in mind, and is allowed to manipulate the telling of that story anyway he/she wants. It is the characters of that story who are classically meant to be oblivious to the audience.

Finally, you haven't given a concrete alternative definition, and I seriously doubt that one could be crafted. Allowing one to experience it at a higher level is such a loose concept that it could conceivably be applied to any work of art - off the top of my head, Seinfeld's use of running jokes allows some of its audience to experience it at a higher level, Ian McEwan's Atonement, by describing the same event from the points of view of several characters, allows us to appreciate the character relationships at a higher level. It is the nature of art to find new and unexpected ways of expressing its meaning; surely we can't classify all such innovations as fourth wall breaks? RMoloney 21:01, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I will settle for the definition at [1] which indeed does exclusively use the term when reffering to an aside (despite not taking into considerations interactive media etc). - UnlimitedAccess 21:57, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Some notes on the latest (August 05) edit

I've just gone through the whole page and made some pretty drastic changes. I wanted to remove some of the less worthwhile examples, but also to add some content, so it was more than a brief definition and a list of examples of breaking the fourth wall (which is not what this page is about). I feel I should explain myself though;

• Removed early examples (Shakespere and Greek plays) as they pre-date term itself and so do not really count. Remember plays did not often have what we would recognise as sets- so did not have a first, second or third wall either!
• I removed lots of perfectly good examples, as the list doesn't have to be exhaustive. I also tried to make each section roughly the same size, for consistency. I think it reads better this way.
• British English spelling. I know this is an issue for lots of people- but I really don't mind about it, honest! It happened by accident as I ran the whole text through a spell check and have my settings as Brit-English. I'm not pushing an agenda, and won't be offended if it changes back!
• List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall Just a thought. . .Coyote-37 15:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I think such a list is a good idea. WP editors are completists by nature, and your attempts at maintaining a limited number of examples are doomed unless there's an alternate place for everybody's favorite fourth wall breakage. Wasted Time R 15:35, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

You're right, and the comments on your user page put what you say in perspective- I suspect you've had more experience of this than me! My current tactic with this page is to remove overtly bad examples but otherwise let the list grow at it's own rate. When it get's truely huge I'll move it here Coyote-37 10:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Cutting this page in half- opinions please!

This page is just horrible again, filled with stream of conciousness examples of obscure fourth wall violations. Wikipedians just hate to leave something out- but this page is poorer because of it. So I'm going to move the list in it's entirety to List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall in a week or so, unless users here object. Please do give your opinions here. Thanks everybody Coyote-37 09:55, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Might not be a bad idea. Though the "Fourth wall" would then most likely end up as a stub, unless some examples were kept for ilustration. Meanwhile, I'm seeing what I can do to clean the article as it is up a bit, maybe fusing some shows where the fourh-wall-breaking is similar into common bullets, to hopefully keep the article tighter..Zeppocity 10:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I've gone from mildly supporting this to fully so, especially taking in consideration the need people display in bulleting each one, disregarding instances where grouping them would at least give the examples given some consistency (see a recent edit on Tv and etc.). So I'm all up for keeping this in purely general terms ("instances include yadayada where yada yada (in series such as X and Y")), and breaking off the gradually growing actual list of instances of fourth-wall breaking into an article of its own. In a bit of a rush now; if I need to do it myself, I'll do so. Please, editors, some thoughts on the matter before it's actually done (or, potentially, scrapped). Cheers, Zeppocity 15:08, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

A grumpy aside- has anyone else noticed that people on this page use the word 'famous' to mean 'the one I've heard of'? Coyote-37 09:11, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The list is gone

After a week or so of no objections, I have moved the list to it's own page. Speak now if you object (or just revert, of course!), but I don't really see why there should be a list of fourth wall violations on this page at all- it's not what the page is about. Coyote-37 15:39, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Great job! You had the courage to do something that should have been done a long time ago. --Cswrye 00:35, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Water on Camera Lens

Is it a form of breaking the fourth wall when water gets on the camera lens, as happens in some action scenes? --129.44.179.249 10:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I guess, in a way, it is because it breaks the illusion of the action. But since it is a technical limitation rather than deliberate, I wouldn't consider that a breaking of the fourth wall. Val42 16:00, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it might be a fairly viable form of breaking the fourth wall, because even CG effects sometimes cause this, which is obviously intentional. However, it's not really a way of telling the audience "This isn't real", so perhaps not. -Caligari_87

You could then argue that anything that "gives away" that it's a movie could constitute breaking the fourth wall... such as the sun refracting in the lens, forming those little polygon-shaped thingies... or when someone is in foreground and someone in background, and the camera is refocused from one to the other. But in the normal usage of the term, breaking the fourth wall primarily refers to the actors acknowledging the existence of the audience. Wahkeenah 19:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Building the fourth wall

As sort of a counterpoint, I made up the "building a fourth wall" segment, because I think that's a valid idea as well, and I couldn't really find anything like it. -Caligari_87

Okay, it seems that this segment has been removed, citing "original research". I didn't know that this qualified as such, I was just trying to make an example. What do you think? I'm fine with the decision, I just want an opinion. Caligari 87 20:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

in reality shows

I was one Encyclopedia Dramatica recently and in their artilce for the Fourth Wall it said that in reality shows the term is used for interaction between cast and crew. Now we all know ED is a fake encyclopedia but that seems to make alot of sense. Should it be added? Johhny-turbo 19:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• It is arguably a corollary to the primary concept of breaking the fourth wall as "acknowledging the existence of the audience". It is pretty much the same thing, because it is the players admitting that they are in a play, not "real life". However, in a "reality show", that doesn't really apply, because it's not a scripted play, it's more like a documentary. Documentaries are not a "false reality" like plays are (hopefully not, anyway) and it's perfectly acceptable for the subjects to acknowledge the existence of the camera, crew and unseen audience. Wahkeenah 19:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Removal of 'multiple fourth walls' section

The "Breaking multiple fourth walls" section?? Why was it gone and why were people adding excessive amounts of examples before it was gone? --Nerd42 19:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Nerd42, I've moved your comment to clarify the discussion, I hope you don't mind. I realise I was being somewhat harsh in my edits, so I've tried to add content and clarify why this section should be removed, rather than simply revert blindly. A story that refers to the fourth wall, but doesn't break it (like the Truman Show) is more properly referred to as a metafiction, for which we already have a page, so there's no need to discuss it at length on this page. Please read through that page and if you still think we need to deal with it on fourth wall, come back and discuss it on the talk page.

P.S. I liked the Dilbert trivia, and I thought it added something, although it did seem to be tempting editors who misunderstood the point, to list other irrelevant comic strip examples. Is that why it was removed? Coyote-37 10:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

There's also a list called the List of fiction that builds the fourth wall which lists The Truman Show. Personally, I wouldn't object to a section between Breaking the fourth wall and See also entitled "Reinforcing the fourth wall." This new section could ever-so-briefly explain metafiction and refer the reader to the metafiction for a more-in-depth explanation. But, I don't think we need a large section in this article dedicated to this.

Allixpeeke 22:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Meta-reference

Should this perhaps be merged into meta-reference? Are the two close enough?

I don't mind them being separate. A meta-reference is the breaking of the fourth wall, while this article explains what this so-called "fourth wall" is.

Allixpeeke 22:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

final fantasy?

is it just me or is it weird (arbitrary) to have the final fantasy reference be the first thing in the article? Dummies102 23:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's weird and off putting. wasserperson 00:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Deadpool

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadpool

Popeye "How Green is my Spinach"

This must be a very unique example of a reverse 4th wall break being part of the narrative. Bluto, having destroyed the world's spinach crop, is overpowering Popeye in a grocery store. A panicky announcer ask if anyone has a can of spinach in the house. A very worried boy in the audience remembers he does have a can and throws it up into the cartoon and Popeye catches it and eats it and promply thrashes Bluto.

Is that not just a Deus ex machina, or maybe both? Colossus 86 12:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

A strange fourth wall

Just as a suggestion, and Im really not sure HOW you would describe this, but has anyone else have any thoughts about this: http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=2077 Its interesting to say the least

He breaks the fourth wall in the first scene. The reason the other guy, and most, would not get it is because they're unfamiliar with what breaking the fourth wall means, and would not realize that the fourth wall had been broken from the very beginning, when the main character introduces his own comic strip.

Allixpeeke 22:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I wasnt referencing the obvious, just the litteral adherance to breaking a wall, yet directing it at the viewers from a point of view that we would understand

Video Game Image?

Is the image really neccessary? Is the image really appropriate for this article? JWGreen 05:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Do I detect a hint of video game phobia? The image gets the point of breaking the fourth wall across pretty clearly. Questioning it simply because it's from a video game is ridiculous. 65.95.162.22 11:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

1. Sure, objecting to a video game image out of pure bias is, well, ridiculous.

2. On the other hand, dismissing JWGreen just like that is a little ludicrous

3. The image doesn't get the point across. The image is a trivial, genre-appropriate example of direct address.

4. The article is a fairly tight, clear piece on a highbrow aspect of theater/lit theory. This particular video game image clashes

with that.wasserperson 06:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

He's Right I Suggest either removing it or some more appropriate Picture. Nathen

I inserted a Liberty Meadows comic strip that also literally breaks the fourth wall. It's not high-brow, but it might be hard to get a high-brow image since breaking the fourth wall is typically used for comedic purposes. At least it has a bit more pizzaz than the video game screenshot - and humor doesn't hurt either. BayBoy 03:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Comand and conquer

Are they breaking the fourth wall. Jamhaw 21:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)jamhaw

Canon puncturing

I created the original canon puncturing article, and I'm familiar with the community that first invented and proliferated the term. It is not used correctly here; I unfortunately was busy getting married at around the time the article on canon puncturing was apparently merged into this one.

Canon puncturing is not when a character identifies his context as fictional. Canon puncturing is when one character tells another, ”Yes, you're fictional, but I'm real. I know you're fictional because I saw you in this TV show or read about you in this book, but I know that I exist.”

Is there any way to appeal a merger decision? Kimpire 11:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

{{contradict}}

The intro paragraph says that the origin of the term is unknown, but then the very first section is called Origin and meaning. Anthony Rupert 06:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)