Talk:Black Is King

Production company

Hi Jedi94! Thought it would be best to start a discussion here. Parkwood Entertainment has been named as the production company in the film's credits and in all of these sources: 1234567. I hope that we can follow this majority. Bgkc4444 (talk) 14:01, 5 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

No one's denying that Parkwood Entertainment is one of the film's production companies, but we also have sources from reliable, reputable trade publications within the film/entertainment industry, including The Hollywood Reporter and Variety, and here again, that also explicitly report Walt Disney Pictures as a production company with Parkwood. The studio's logo is also included at the beginning of the film's opening credits. ~ Jedi94 (Want to tell me something?) 19:06, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jedi94: We should follow the majority of sources, and the majority of sources state that Parkwood Entertainment is the sole production company. Furthermore, the Variety article just copied what was on this Wikipedia article before, which is why Beyoncé is credited as "music by" and "producer", which she is not, and as the sole writer, director and cast member. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

You are forming your own conclusion with your unsupported claim about Variety "copying" Wikipedia. We have seperate reliable secondary sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy that report two production companies. According to Wikipedia's guidelines, when we have sources with contradicting information on a subject and none of them can be demonstrated unreliable, then the article should include both pieces of sourced content to maintain a neutral point-of-view for the reader. We do not choose which one of them is true. ~ Jedi94 (Want to tell me something?) 03:36, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jedi94: My claim is not unsupported. The writer copied from this Wikipedia article, including the mistakes for every category, as you can see here. According to the conflicting sources guidelines, "If the issue is a simple matter of fact (e.g., a birth date) but cannot be resolved, this can be reported by presenting the apparently most plausible choice in the text while adding a footnote with the alternatives." As the majority of sources (and all bar one accurate source) indicate Parkwood Entertainment as the sole production company, it is the most plausible choice, and therefore we should present that in the text. Thank you. Bgkc4444 (talk) 14:59, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

Where does it exactly show that they copied it? How did you determine that Walt Disney Pictures being an additional production company is an implausible choice? Not only is it supported by the 3 provided sources, the film also opens with the company's production logo and was produced for and released on Disney+, so it is certainly within the realm of plausibility if we go down that avenue of logic. ~ Jedi94 (Want to tell me something?) 05:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@TropicAces: @Greg Dahlen: @Alecsdaniel: @Hummerrocket: @NinjaRobotPirate: Pinging other editors that have been active on this article or worked on similar conflicts, so that this discussion doesn't stagnate as just a back-and-forth with no consensus. ~ Jedi94 (Want to tell me something?) 06:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The information that Variety used was wrong. Every single category (directed by, produced by, etc.) they got wrong. This shows that they didn't base that material on an official source or statement, and the history of this article shows that the false information presented was also present in this article.

I never said Disney being a production company for this film was an implausible choice, because The Hollywood Reporter source is a reliable source. But it certainly is the least plausible choice because every other reliable source says that Parkwood Entertainment were the sole production company. It doesn't matter whether it's in the "realm of plausibility" or not because the Wikipedia guidelines that you sent me clearly state that the least plausible choice should not be included in the text, and your edit is the least plausible choice.

Yes, it was released on Disney+, but that means Disney has the distribution rights, not that it is the production company. That is why the beginning of the film states: "Disney+ presents a Parkwood film". Anyways, we are looking at reliable third-party sources, which almost all say that Parkwood is the sole production company. Bgkc4444 (talk) 08:19, 12 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

About the reviews

@Bgkc4444 and Alecsdaniel: I was evaluating whether this article needs semi-protection (I decided it doesn’t) and I noticed the beginnings of an edit war between the two of you about reviews. Please come here to the talk page to discuss your differences, and maybe reach agreement or some kind of compromise. Do not WP:Edit war. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:48, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm glad you brought this into the discussion. As mentioned, the paragraph starts by saying that the work was reviewed positively, but that there were some questions about how does it actually help the Black community of Africa. The answer that "she doesn't have to actually do that, she's not a politician" is a bit strange, but it is still a valid question asked in those articles. With an approval rate of 98% on Rotten Tomatoes, naturally the reader will want to know if there was any criticism, but that section only focuses on the praise the work received, which doesn't make it neutral. Alecsdaniel (talk) 09:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

@MelanieN: Thank you for this!

@Alecsdaniel: I have a few points here:

1. As there is a discussion started here, you should not be continuously forcing your edits onto the page.
2. You should be attributing these statements to the people who wrote them.
3. You want to ask "how does it actually help the Black community of Africa", but there is no evidence that this is an aim of the film, and in fact those involved in the film have stated that the message of the film is for the African diaspora, and not for Africans on the continent.
4. If you want to represent certain writers' views, you need to represent the views present in the source with due weight, meaning that you cannot take one negative sentence (out of context and that is rebutted in the same source, see point 5) from an overwhelmingly positive review and add it to the article giving greater emphasis on the very minor negative point.
5. You are misrepresenting the authors' views. In the first source, Young rebutts the point you added, saying that there are "limits of a production like this" and that "Beyoncé takes great pains to associate Blackness not just with literal kings and queens, but also with community, consciousness and greatness" (which Beyonce has said is the aim of the film and not literal regality). In the second source, the point you added was said by a Twitter "user who goes by Radiocranberry" and "college student Grace Bassey", whereas the authors of the article disagree and say "Actually, we don't mind the animal prints so much. As a Kenyan professor living in the U.S. and a Nigerian doctor living in Nigeria, we believe that ultimately Black Is King is a timely celebration of Blackness. Considering the current global push of the Black Lives Matter movement and the increased international advocacy against racism, the time has come for a film like this." In the third source, the author immediately says after writing what you added "But Beyoncé is a singer, songwriter, producer, director, and dancer, not a historian or politician, so it’s hard to say that Black Is King oversteps any boundaries in its simple mission to elevate Black beauty and foster Black unity." You called this "a bit strange", but that's the answer your source gives, not me.

There's nothing wrong with adding negative points, but please make sure they are represented fairly and they follow the Wikipedia guidelines. Thank you! Bgkc4444 (talk) 12:17, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

• 1. I revered the edit before I saw this conversation, so, it is ironic of you doing the same thing;
• 2. Not a reason to remove the reviews, you can complete their names if you wish to;
• 3. Beyonce herself called it a "love letter to Africa" and her mother "the beauty of Africans before colonialism", which, sounds like it pretty much includes actual Africans;
• 4. The paragraph we were talking about literally started by stating that the reviews were positive as well, but that certain questions were asked;
• 5. You can't say I am misrepresenting anything, since I just quoted them. Opinions on Twitter are valid if they are used in an article from a respected source (in this case, the NPR), as they represent the voice of the public, I didn't link to one tweet and called it a source. You are free to add an explanation and more context if you feel like it.

You are one of the main editors of this article and you are showing a clear bias, often fans of singers like Beyonce and Lady Gaga take control of an article and remove anything that could have a remotely negative tone. Even films like Citizen Kane with 100% approval on RT have mixed/negative reviews presented in the article and your decision to completely focus on the positive aspects of all reviews fails NPOV. Alecsdaniel (talk) 06:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

On the third point, according to the people who worked on the film as well as critics, the film is for the African diaspora to connect to their motherland.

On the fourth point, yes, but as I said you need to give due weight to the critics' opinion. If a critic gives a fully positive review, which includes a negative sentence that they themselves refute, you can't say that they're all positive reviews by-the-by and then spend a paragraph stretching out the negative points.

On the fifth, of course you are misrepresenting their views. You cannot take a sentence out of context and say that this is their negative opinion when they clearly refute the negative point that they bring.

You also cannot say that a critic believes a certain negative point said by a random Twitter user because they brought it in a review to say that it's wrong.

I'm not sure why you're making personal attacks on me because I would certainly not put you in a box as a "Madonna fan" to try delegitimise your points. As I have said, there is nothing wrong with adding negative reviews. Just follow the guidelines. Bgkc4444 (talk) 08:31, 12 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444