Talk:Syrian Kurdistan/Archive 5

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Removal of CIA quote

User Applodian removed a CIA quote here: [1] claiming "95% of it was already mentioned in one way or another in the article anyway"

But that's not true at all. Kurds had equal rights, received fair treatment, kurds not wanting to integrate, Beirut and Damascus becoming centers of "Kurdish nationalist propaganda", "immigrant" kurds provided most leaders for the kurds, "non-native immigrant Kurds" "retained their traditional hatred of alien domination", kurds wanting the "creation" of a "kurdistan" including parts of Syria. All of this is nowhere to be found in the article and by removing this documented CIA quote this valuable historical information is completely absent from the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:51, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

All what was not mentioned by the quote can be added to the text without the quote. In addition, some of the information is not very important here, as the "equal rights" you mentioned are about the situation under the French Mandate. The CIA document is from 1946. A lot has changed in the last 70+(!) years. Also, the importance of immigrants for the development of Syrian Kurdistan is already mentioned several times, such as here: "and refugees arriving from Turkish and Iraqi Kurdistan helped foster Kurdish political consciousness, engendering a "pan-Kurdism" that complemented pre-existing Kurdish identities". Applodion (talk) 11:19, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

I also thought the quote was misplaced and gave it an elevated prominence in the article. Per MOS:QOUTE, we are encouraged to write in our own words.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:21, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

In addition to the above, the CIA is not a reliable source. Levivich ^harass/_hound 15:40, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Historical impossibility

These sentences that are currently in the article say:

• "During the 1920s, use of the Latin alphabet to write the Kurdish languages was introduced by Celadet Bedir Khan and his brother Kamuran Alî Bedirxan and became widespread in Syrian Kurdistan, as it did in Turkish Kurdistan."

• "By the 1960s, after the eventual settlement of the borders of the successor states after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, Kurdistan was frequently divided into four regions corresponding to the Kurdish-majority areas of four adjacent modern states: Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Syria."

So these two sentences are implying that during the Ottoman empire there was a "Kurdistan" inside Syria. But if we take a look at this[2] CIA source from 1946 at page 12 it says: "these Kurds have tended to regard the creation of an independent "Kurdistan" as their only salvation. The area to be included in such a state is variously defined. In all cases, however it included portions of Turkey, Iraq and Iran, as well as Syria, and the supposition is made that a unified Kurdish movement for independence must exist in all four countries."

So if kurds in 1946 wanted the "creation" of a "Kurdistan" in Syria, then a "Syrian Kurdistan" couldn't have possibly existed prior to that date, during the 1920s or Ottoman Empire. These claims are therefor a historical impossibility. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:17, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, there has never existed an independent country (politically recognized) called Kurdistan, a cultural, historical Kurdistan (academically recognized), a country where Kurds live, has existed also during the Ottoman Empire, and this span also over parts of present-day Syria.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 13:23, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

The source I linked to above confirms that as of 1946 no "Kurdistan" existed in Syria. Do you have a RS that confirms the opposite? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:27, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

How is this 1946 CIA report an WP:RS? Levivich ^harass/_hound 16:13, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

It was a secret report written and distributed by the CIA concerning a situation in Syria. The report was for the US president and other high ranking US officials. Its information is reliable.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:52, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

You think it's an WP:RS because it's a secret internal US government report? What is this, Alice in Wonderland? Levivich ^harass/_hound 17:43, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I've reluctantly p-blocked SD for disruptive editing. —valereee (talk) 18:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Disputed content requires recent scholarship for source

I've added a restriction to the GS banner; any disputed content must be sourced to recent scholarship. —valereee (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

valereee hate to be that guy, but you technically also need to add it into Template:Editnotices/Page/Syrian Kurdistan as well (done in the same way as the talk notice using |restriction1=) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 03:18, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

@ProcrastinatingReader never with me worry about being that guy. Let me see if I can figure that out lol... —valereee (talk) 03:23, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay, check my work. Also tell me what I should have been aware of to know I needed to do that? —valereee (talk) 03:25, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Er...that wasn't a demand, I meant it as a request for help, and please add "please and thank you" to the rendering. :) —valereee (talk) 03:29, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Yeah that works. GN mentioned it at WT:GS. It's not properly documented on the WP:GS/SCW page, though it is on other sanction pages (eg WP:GS/COVID19), likely because the GS subpages are an inconsistent mess, but I think it stems from Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Page_restrictions: "Enforcing administrators must add an editnotice to restricted pages and should add a notice to the talk page of restricted pages." imo when in doubt with GS, ignore every GS page and follow WP:AC/DS. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 03:33, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

@ProcrastinatingReader, so that's "the page's edit notice" that GN mentioned? God I hate how stupid I'm clearly admitting to being, but how do I even know whether a page has an edit notice, and absent someone helpfully being that guy <g> where do I find it? —valereee (talk) 03:56, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Yeah. If the page doesn't have one, you can create one. If you go to Syrian Kurdistan, click "Edit source" in the top right you'll see a small blue link called "Page notice". Clicking it takes you to the editnotice page. If you click "Edit source" on a page that doesn't have one, for example Syrian Army, you'll still see "Page notice" but it'll be a redlink. Clicking it will take you to the page to create it using the editnotice template ({{Gs/editnotice}}). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 04:02, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

@ProcrastinatingReader always something new to discover here lol... —valereee (talk) 13:15, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Could you unblock Supreme Deliciousness now? Shadow4dark (talk) 03:36, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I'd quite like to do that; let's give it a bit to see what the reaction to this is. —valereee (talk) 04:01, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I'd prefer an explanation for the move attempt to Kurdish occupied regions of Syria from Syrian Kurdistan during the Siege of Kobane by ISIL (and Turkey). Then SD would have to accept that Turkish and Assad POV are not academic scholarship (not worth to discuss) and also commit not to remove academic scholarship (without foregoing discussion) like they did before the GOLDLOCK was instated.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:38, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

—valereee, I guess you haven't seen my reply. So there is now an ANI thread on if you are even allowed to impose such a restriction. Could you also unblock GPinkerton who actually brought in most sources of academic scholarship into the article and is the leading editor of the article? Or could you give at least an explanation for to only allow the ones who have opposed academic scholarship as Kurdish POV, but exclude the one who brought them in?Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:07, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle, GPinkerton isn't blocked, they have a topic ban. That topic ban wasn't placed by me, and I couldn't remove it without at minimum discussing first with the admin who placed it, and even then there might have to be a discussion, as the topic ban was placed via a discussion among multiple admins. A removal of the topic ban probably requires an appeal at AN, and frankly I'd recommend a good few months of trouble-free editing in other places. FTR, always feel free to ping me when you are looking for me to comment! I never mind being pinged. —valereee (talk) 17:23, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

History

Currently, the "History" section spends six paragraphs on pre-modern-Syria, and one paragraph on post-modern-Syria. This is disproportionate. In the "Background" section of Michael Gunter's 2014 book Out of Nowhere, page 7, this is how he introduces the topic of Syrian Kurdistan (I added wikilinks for anyone who is not familiar with the terms):

Although Syria is an ancient land, the modern state only dates from the French mandate established in 1920. The earlier concept of Greater Syria (Bilad al-Sham) had been a much larger one that also included today's Lebanon, Jordan and what was then known as Palestine, which is today's Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Indeed some Arab nationalists would even include modern Iraq so that Greater Syria would denote the united Fertile Crescent. Thus, this study of the Kurds in Syria largely begins with the French mandate as any earlier mention of Syria could easily be misleading. In addition, since there were no separate states of Turkey, Iraq and Syria until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after the First World War, the Kurds of those future states simply lived in the Ottoman Empire. The concept of the Kurds in Syria could not be meaningful until the French mandate was created and even later, after failed Kurdish uprisings during the 1920s in Turkey forced many Kurds to leave that country for Syria.

Among pan-Kurdish nationalists, Syrian Kurdistan is often referred to as Western Kurdistan or Rojava (the direction of the setting sun). Since this region contains the country's most fertile areas and is also home to most of its oil reserves, the Kurdish-populated areas of Syria are a prize well worth struggling over.

During the past century it might be said that the Kurds in Syria have suffered a form of sequential triple colonialism: first, the Ottoman Empire until 1918; then the French until 1946; and subsequently the Arabs once Syria gained its independence. Furthermore, after it came to power in 1963, the now moribund Baathist party proved even more hostile toward the Kurds...

Gunter then discusses the Kurdish roots in Syria starting with Krak des Chevaliers (Castle of the Kurds) in the Alawite mountains, and the separate and distinct Kurdish areas in Syria: Afrin, Kobani and Jazira (p. 8), before continuing with the history starting with WWI and forward (p. 9 and on).

The current History section has too much pre-20th-century, and too little 20th-century history, for a topic (Syrian Kurdistan) that is a 20th century concept (because modern Syria is a 20th-century concept, not because Kurdistan is a 20th-century concept, as Gunter explains). I plan to revise the history section to re-balance it, by cutting down on the pre-1918 stuff and expanding the post-1918 stuff. I wanted to share this to explain the reasoning for forthcoming edits. Reverts welcome as always. Levivich ^harass/_hound 21:54, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Levivich: Your removal of French population numbers, immigration from Turkey and Algun information is unjustified and not accepted. It actually contradicts what you say above about importance of focusing on historical background from the 20th century. Why are ethnographic maps and population censuses unneeded in an area to which Kurds lay national claims while numbers (from the 20th century) show otherwise? If you are not using French mandate numbers, then which numbers should we use and believe? French scholarship from the 1950's is very relevant and necessary to this article as this is when Kurdish nationalistic claims started to appear in Syria. Your approach of 2020 snapshot is missing the context and evolution of things, which is misleading (with all due respect), to say the least. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 02:34, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Because they were not sourced to modern scholarship. It's not a 2020 snapshot, it's using modern scholarship. To the extent we include historical figures, they need to be sourced to modern scholarship not historical scholarship. Levivich ^harass/_hound 02:49, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Levivich, according to the newly implanted rule, modern scholarship are only required "For any disputed content", is there a dispute about the french population numbers? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:00, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

The fact that an editor disputes something makes it disputed content. —valereee (talk) 17:28, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

You will not find copies of original research and census data published earlier in modern scholarship because that's called PLAGIARISM. You might find very brief mentions with no details, such as this Most Syrian Kurds are originally Turkish Kurds who have crossed the border during different events in the 20th century. The details provided in earlier scholarship (such as the quotes from French authors) about mandate-era ethno-social changes happening in Jazira are all important for a claimed cultural/national territory by a specific group of people. Also, you removed the French mandate numbers from Algun's work (2011) under a different pretext. The census numbers you removed show ethnic composition of different parts of Jazira and population evolution with time. There is no justification to removing these numbers, unless one wants to hide the history of the area. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:06, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

The 2008 edition (p. 475) says The majority of the Kurds in Syria are originally Turkish Kurds, who left Turkey in the 1920s in order to escape the harsh repression of the Kurds in that country. These Kurds were later joined in Syria by a new large group that drifted out of Turkey throughout the interwar period during which the Turkish campaign to assimilate its Kurdish population was at its highest. This demonstrates the importance of citing recent scholarship, as historiography changes; even this source changed slightly over a three-year period, no doubt in response to feedback from the 2005 edition.

The population table I removed here covers 1929-1954, placing WP:UNDUE focus on the post-war period while excluding the 1920s, and it's sourced to the 1956 survey. Similarly, this content I removed cited to a 1953 survey highlights certain post-war years, which is UNDUE. None of it provides the context that modern scholarship provides. (Note that both the source I quoted above, and the 2008 version of the source you quoted, focus on Turkish Kurd migration specifically in the 1920s.)

The whole History section, and really the whole article, is the sum of years of POV battles. It's really noticeable in the way that it talks about certain minor things in great detail, while barely mentioning other major events. Another tell-tale sign is that the article is based almost entirely on dozens of sources, each of which is only cited once. This is a give-away that editors are including sources to make certain points. What everyone should be doing instead is summarizing the best sources available; that means the article will cite multiple sources multiple times, as those are the sources that are summarized.

Anyway, the reason for the removal of those population figures was because they were sourced to 75-year-old surveys. Levivich ^harass/_hound 04:26, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, if you feel that a certain area/event is not covered enough, all you have to do is expand it, not remove other info to make everything look balanced. The French articles do talk about multiple aspects, not just immigration, and were providing great context. The evolution of the population is also important to show how this area developed, and how it was affected by events in neighboring Turkey, and how it started to thrive under French mandate. At the end of the day, it's the history section and relevant info might only come from older sources. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:50, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

References