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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ImTheIP (talk | contribs) at 10:09, 29 January 2021 (→RfC result). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Claim regarding the expulsion of Germans in the lede

This seems contentious and disputed (according to some sources the partitioning of India was the biggest act of ethnic cleansing). At any rate such a contentious claim does not belong in the lede. FOARP (talk) 10:28, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A very noteworthy claim may, and should, be in the lead, if it is sourced and phrased properly (e.g. "it has been claimed that...").
Having said that, I agree that in this case it may be better to have this in some section of the article proper, but it should definitely not have been removed altogether. Debresser (talk) 22:52, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK, moving to the section on Germany with the suggested edit. BTW WP:BRD is a completely legitimate way of proceeding with edits. FOARP (talk) 07:48, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Making reasonable edits is a much better way of proceeding with edits. Debresser (talk) 17:08, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Section on Native Americans?

I think the US's ethnic cleansing of Native Americans should be described on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:500:4100:2FC0:C8BE:47DE:F6C6:C678 (talk) 04:25, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If such a thing took place and you can provide reliable sources for it, using the term "ethnic cleansing", then please feel free to add such a section. Debresser (talk) 21:52, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Instances

There is already a List of ethnic cleansing campaigns. Does that information need to be repeated in this article? I propose that the section be scrapped or significantly shortened. One or two paragraphs should suffice. "Examples of infamous ethnic cleansing campaigns during the 20th century include the 1914-1923 Armenian genocide, the expulsion of Greeks from Anatolia, the Holocaust, the expulsion of German-speakers from Eastern Europe in 1944–1949, the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948, ..." ImTheIP (talk) 11:20, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the list in this article is a POV fork, and will remain as such unless the complete list were to be copied in to this article. As the previous list was deliberately removed from this articles because it was poorly researched (with poor sources) and is a magnet for OR -- Such and such appears to be ethnic cleansing I will add it to the list. Some biased blog site says such and such was ethnic cleansing so it must be in the list. Hence is is very large (this articles including the current short list is 60k), the list article is about 130k. I would go back to the original wording that was in this article after the list was moved out:
In many cases where accusations of ethnic cleansings have circulated, partisans have fiercely disputed such an interpretation and the details of the event. This often leads to the promotion of vastly different versions of the event in question. See the article "List of ethnic cleansings" for a list of events which have been described as ethnic cleansing by academic or legal experts.
-- PBS (talk) 13:49, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Russia: Northern Asia, Caucasus, Arctic, Russia Far East, Central Asia,...

I think Russia ethnic cleansing of non-slavic people should be analyzed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.125.161.230 (talk) 13:39, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Recent bold edits

I changed

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic and systemic forced removal of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.[1][page needed] The forces which may be applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), ethnic dilution, intimidation, as well as genocide and genocidal rape.

to:

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal or extermination of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups by a more powerful ethnic group, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. The forces which may be applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), ethnic dilution, violence or intimidation aimed at coercing the victim group to leave, as well as mass murder. Although it is not a separate crime under international criminal law, ethnic cleansing constitutes crimes against humanity and potentially war crimes or genocide.[2][3]

Debresser keeps reverting this edit. But the issue is that "genocide" is not a method or means of ethnic cleansing, it is a legal category (that includes other methods besides physically killing most or all members of the group as a means of removal). The new version therefore clearly distinguishes between actions and the legal categories that are applied to them in prosecutions before international courts.

Unlike the previous version, the content in the new version is verifiable to reliable sources. (Citing a book without a page number or chapter is not verifiable).

In addition, the use of the word "systemic" in the previous version is incorrectly used, see [1] (t · c) buidhe 04:01, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Rubenstein, James M. (2008). The Cultural Landscape: An Introduction to Human Geography. Pearson. ISBN 9780131346819.
  2. ^ Jones, Adam (2012). "'Ethnic cleansing' and genocide". Crimes Against Humanity: A Beginner's Guide. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-78074-146-8.
  3. ^ "Ethnic cleansing". www.un.org. United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect. Retrieved 20 December 2020.
First of all, please review WP:BRD. If you make a bold edit which is reverted, that is a sure sign that there is no consensus for your change, meaning that it is your responsibility to establish consensus for it. Edit warring is not the same thing.
Your edit also removed a "Citation needed" tag without any explanation.
I don't agree with your statement that the fact that a page number is lacking means that a statement is not verifiable. Compare for example WP:SOURCEACCESS. By the way, your proposed edit refers to a chapter in a book. Also not ideal.
I think that systemic is fine in this sentence.
Likewise I disagree with your statement that genocide is not a method or means of ethnic cleansing. "Genocide" is something that has al legal definition and legal repercussions, like many words, which does not mean it stopped being a word in common English.
Likewise I oppose your removal of "genocidal rape".
I have no problem with the new sentence starting "Although", which I actually considered leaving in place when I reverted. Debresser (talk) 01:33, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
BRD does not mean that any editor gets a veto over a content change.
I have no objection to leaving cn tag in place.
If there's no page number, how do I find the information in the book? Reading it all is impractical.
The "genocide" as a means is not backed up at all with any reliable source. Compare the UN website, which you removed without any explanation:[2]

The Commission of Experts also stated that the coercive practices used to remove the civilian population can include: murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, severe physical injury to civilians, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of property, robbery of personal property, attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem, among others.

Whereas genocide is a criminal classification:

The Commission of Experts added that these practices can “… constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.”

What source for genocidal rape? And per the above quoted source, it is not necessary for rape to be genocidal to be a form of ethnic cleansing. (t · c) buidhe 10:35, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't understand why you argue against the obvious.
See for example this article which says: "To qualify as genocide, the actions must be done with intent to eliminate an entire group of people. Without provable intent, a group or individual can still be guilty of “crimes against humanity” or “ethnic cleansing” but not genocide." From this it is clear that the same actions that are "only" ethnic cleansing when done without intent, constitute genocide when done with intent. Meaning that when done with intent, genocide is a means of ethnic cleansing. In any case, you focus on the legal difference, which is completely out of place when not in an international court of law. The word "genocide" carries more than only its legal definition. It actually existed long before that legal definition was made up. Use a dictionary, not a legal textbook, next time you come to edit Wikiepdai, please. Debresser (talk) 20:14, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
PBS is not a great source for highly technical and contested legal questions such as this one. Their statement is incorrect or at best misleading; no one can be guilty of "ethnic cleansing" as it is not a crime.
Compare the entry "'Ethnic cleansing' versus genocide" in Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies (2010):

Explaining the relationship between ethnic cleansing and genocide has caused controversy. Ethnic cleansing shares with genocide the goal of achieving purity but the two can differ in their ultimate aims: ethnic cleansing seeks the forced removal of an undesired group or groups where genocide pursues the group’s ‘destruction’. Ethnic cleansing and genocide therefore fall along a spectrum of violence against groups with genocide lying on the far end of the spectrum.

According to this entry, there are some events which were both ethnic cleansing and genocide, such as the Armenian genocide. (t · c) buidhe 20:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is basically same issue that has arisen on other articles. Buidhe insists on their own interpretation of “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” and other editors disagree.
In this particular instance Buidhe fails to provide a link to the source, which, unfortunately, is also they commonly fail to do (and it’s time wasting and exhausting to get them to provide just a link to a source). Here is the source [3]
The part of quotation that was omitted above is as follows:
”The two are distinct where ethnic cleansing does not lead to destruction of groups, but extreme cases of ethnic cleansing overlap with genocide when the means employed to carry out ethnic cleansing lead to genocide”.
And
”The overlap between genocide and ethnic cleansing is greatest when genocide is conceived of as Raphael Lemkin originally described the term”
Volunteer Marek 22:19, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously, I can't quote an entire chapter, that would violate copyright rules, not to mention waste time. I don't see how these quotes undermine my argument at all. For instance, where does it say that genocide is a method of ethnic cleansing, as Debresser has been insisting without a source? (t · c) buidhe 23:05, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is a matter of common sense. I mean, how is mass killing people of a certain ethnicity not ethnic cleansing? According to the legal definition you like so much, as explained in the source I provided and other sources that discuss the UN definition, genocide is ethnic cleansing per definition. Ergo, genocide is a way to do ethnic cleansing, QED. In addition, I think that the source I provided says this clearly enough. Debresser (talk) 21:36, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Lieberman (previously cited source) says that some genocides (notably the Holocaust) were not ethnic cleansing, since the goal was not removal of Jews from a certain area, but total elimination wherever they happened to be. Since it's peer reviewed, it takes precedence over your claim that "genocide is ethnic cleansing per definition" (although I'm not sure how you conclude that from the source you cited) and OR conclusion that genocide is a means of ethnic cleansing. (t · c) buidhe 21:50, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That is a very arguable argument, and more of a technicality than an issue. And not really relevant in either case, because I never claimed that all genocides are a mens of ethnic cleansing, only that genocide can be a means of ethnic cleansing. Although II find it hard to think of an example when it isn't (being that I disagree with Lieberman's hair-cleaving). Debresser (talk) 22:45, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RfC

Which version should be used as the first paragraph of this article; Version A, Version B, or something else? (t · c) buidhe 01:29, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Versions

Version A:

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic and systemic forced removal of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.[1][page needed] The forces which may be applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), ethnic dilution, intimidation, as well as genocide and genocidal rape.

References

  1. ^ Rubenstein, James M. (2008). The Cultural Landscape: An Introduction to Human Geography. Pearson. ISBN 9780131346819.

Version B:

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal or extermination of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal (deportation, population transfer), it also includes indirect methods aimed at coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, torture, arbitrary detention, threats, and property destruction.[1][2][3] Ethnic cleansing is part of a continuum of violence whose most extreme form is genocide, where the perpetrator's goal is the destruction of the targeted group.[4] Although the term ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law, it constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention.[1][5][6]

References

  1. ^ a b "Ethnic cleansing". www.un.org. United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect. Retrieved 20 December 2020.
  2. ^ Walling, Carrie Booth (2000). "The history and politics of ethnic cleansing". The International Journal of Human Rights. 4 (3–4): 47–66. doi:10.1080/13642980008406892. Most frequently, however, the aim of ethnic cleansing is to expel the despised ethnic group through either indirect coercion or direct force, and to ensure that return is impossible. Terror is the fundamental method used to achieve this end.
    Methods of indirect coercion can include: introducing repressive laws and discriminatory measures designed to make minority life difficult; the deliberate failure to prevent mob violence against ethnic minorities; using surrogates to inflict violence; the destruction of the physical infrastructure upon which minority life depends; the imprisonment of male members of the ethnic group; threats to rape female members, and threats to kill. If ineffective, these indirect methods are often escalated to coerced emigration, where the removal of the ethnic group from the territory is pressured by physical force. This typically includes physical harassment and the expropriation of property. Deportation is an escalated form of direct coercion in that the forcible removal of 'undesirables' from the state's territory is organised, directed and carried out by state agents. The most serious of the direct methods, excluding genocide, is murderous cleansing, which entails the brutal and often public murder of some few in order to compel flight of the remaining group members.13 Unlike during genocide, when murder is intended to be total and an end in itself, murderous cleansing is used as a tool towards the larger aim of expelling survivors from the territory. The process can be made complete by revoking the citizenship of those who emigrate or flee.
  3. ^ Schabas, William A. (2003). "'Ethnic Cleansing' and Genocide: Similarities and Distinctions". European Yearbook of Minority Issues Online. 3 (1): 109–128. doi:10.1163/221161104X00075. The Commission considered techniques of ethnic cleansing to include murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, sexual assault, confinement of civilian populations in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian populations, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, and wanton destruction of property.
  4. ^ Ethnic cleansing versus genocide:
    • Lieberman, Benjamin (2010). "'Ethnic cleansing' versus genocide?". In Bloxham, Donald; Moses, A. Dirk (eds.). The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-923211-6. Explaining the relationship between ethnic cleansing and genocide has caused controversy. Ethnic cleansing shares with genocide the goal of achieving purity but the two can differ in their ultimate aims: ethnic cleansing seeks the forced removal of an undesired group or groups where genocide pursues the group's 'destruction'. Ethnic cleansing and genocide therefore fall along a spectrum of violence against groups with genocide lying on the far end of the spectrum.
    • Martin, Terry (1998). "The Origins of Soviet Ethnic Cleansing". The Journal of Modern History. 70 (4): 813–861. doi:10.1086/235168. ISSN 0022-2801. When murder itself becomes the primary goal, it is typically called genocide... Ethnic cleansing is probably best understood as occupying the central part of a continuum between genocide on one end and nonviolent pressured ethnic emigration on the other end. Given this continuum, there will always be ambiguity as to when ethnic cleansing shades into genocide
    • Schabas, William A. (2003). "'Ethnic Cleansing' and Genocide: Similarities and Distinctions". European Yearbook of Minority Issues Online. 3 (1): 109–128. doi:10.1163/221161104X00075. The crime of genocide is aimed at the intentional destruction of an ethnic group. 'Ethnic cleansing' would seem to be targeted at something different, the expulsion of a group with a view to encouraging or at least tolerating its survival elsewhere. Yet ethnic cleansing may well have the effect of rendering the continued existence of a group impossible, thereby effecting its destruction. In other words, forcible deportation may achieve the same result as extermination camps.
    • Walling, Carrie Booth (2000). "The history and politics of ethnic cleansing". The International Journal of Human Rights. 4 (3–4): 47–66. doi:10.1080/13642980008406892. These methods are a part of a wider continuum ranging from genocide at one extreme to emigration under pressure at the other... It is important - politically and legally - to distinguish between genocide and ethnic cleansing. The goal of the former is extermination: the complete annihilation of an ethnic, national or racial group. It contains both a physical element (acts such as murder) and a mental element (those acts are undertaken to destroy, in whole or in part, the said group). Ethnic cleansing involves population expulsions, sometimes accompanied by murder, but its aim is consolidation of power over territory, not the destruction of a complete people.
    • Naimark, Norman M. (2002). Fires of Hatred. Harvard University Press. pp. 2–5. ISBN 978-0-674-00994-3. A new term was needed because ethnic cleansing and genocide two different activities, and the differences between them are important. As in the case of determining first-degree murder, intentionality is a critical distinction. Genocide is the intentional killing off of part or all of an ethnic, religious, or national group; the murder of a people or peoples (in German, Völkermord) is the objective. The intention of ethnic cleansing is to remove a people and often all traces of them from a concrete territory. The goal, in other words, is to get rid of the "alien" nationality, ethnic, or religious group and to seize control of the territory it had formerly inhabited. At one extreme of its spectrum, ethnic cleansing is closer to forced deportation or what has been called "population transfer"; the idea is to get people to move, and the means are meant to be legal and semi-legal. At the other extreme, however, ethnic cleansing and genocide are distinguishable only by the ultimate intent. Here, both literally and figuratively, ethnic cleansing bleeds into genocide, as mass murder is committed in order to rid the land of a people.
    • Hayden, Robert M. (1996). "Schindler's Fate: Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, and Population Transfers". Slavic Review. 55 (4): 727–748. doi:10.2307/2501233. ISSN 0037-6779. Hitler wanted the Jews utterly exterminated, not simply driven from particular places. Ethnic cleansing, on the other hand, involves removals rather than extermination and is not exceptional but rather common in particular circumstances.
  5. ^ Jones, Adam (2012). "'Ethnic cleansing' and genocide". Crimes Against Humanity: A Beginner's Guide. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-78074-146-8.
  6. ^ Schabas, William A. (2003). "'Ethnic Cleansing' and Genocide: Similarities and Distinctions". European Yearbook of Minority Issues Online. 3 (1): 109–128. doi:10.1163/221161104X00075. 'Ethnic cleansing' is probably better described as a popular or journalistic expression, with no recognized legal meaning in a technical sense... 'ethnic cleansing' is equivalent to deportation,' a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions as well as a crime against humanity, and therefore a crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal.

Version C (=version A + last sentence of version C):

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic and systemic forced removal of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.[1][page needed] The forces which may be applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), ethnic dilution, intimidation, as well as genocide and genocidal rape. Although the term ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law, it constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention.[2][3][4]

References

  1. ^ Rubenstein, James M. (2008). The Cultural Landscape: An Introduction to Human Geography. Pearson. ISBN 9780131346819.
  2. ^ "Ethnic cleansing". www.un.org. United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect. Retrieved 20 December 2020.
  3. ^ Jones, Adam (2012). "'Ethnic cleansing' and genocide". Crimes Against Humanity: A Beginner's Guide. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-78074-146-8.
  4. ^ Schabas, William A. (2003). "'Ethnic Cleansing' and Genocide: Similarities and Distinctions". European Yearbook of Minority Issues Online. 3 (1): 109–128. doi:10.1163/221161104X00075. 'Ethnic cleansing' is probably better described as a popular or journalistic expression, with no recognized legal meaning in a technical sense... 'ethnic cleansing' is equivalent to deportation,' a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions as well as a crime against humanity, and therefore a crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal.

Survey

  • Version B.
  • Version B.
    • This is if I had to choose between just those two, as I don't have an 'other' to offer.
    • Version A starts off a little clunky ("systematic and systemic"), and is lacking in support.
    • Version B could use some minor c/e, and should include all the links that Version A contains.
    • Version B is more comprehensive a better supported. (just my 0.02¢) - wolf 07:30, 24 December 2020 (UTC) changed to[reply]
  • Version C best of the 3 choices (it wasn't available when I posted my previous !vote). - wolf 03:05, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Version A: I don't agree with "Ethnic cleansing is part of a continuum ... genocide." It has a lot of references but some of them doesn't support the claim. E.g "Hitler wanted the Jews utterly exterminated, ... Ethnic cleansing, on the other hand ..." or "It is important - politically and legally - to distinguish between genocide and ethnic cleansing. " They both imply that ethnic cleansing and genocide are orthogonal. It also seem to me that the sources for the continuum claim are argumentative in nature: "Here's why I think ethnic cleansing is a form of genocide ..." I'll change my vote if that sentence is scrubbed/fixed. ImTheIP (talk) 15:51, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    ImTheIP, Thanks for your comment. It's true that different sources present this distinction differently. Another phrasing would be,
    "Ethnic cleansing is distinguished from genocide, where the perpetrator's goal is the destruction of the targeted group." However, that makes them sound mutually exclusive, which is not supported by most sources. (Eg the Armenian genocide is widely described as both ethnic cleansing and genocide.)
    Three of the sources as quoted above acknowledge overlap between ethnic cleansing and genocide. Of the other two,
    • Hayden is explicitly arguing against those who use the word genocide expansively, arguing that the entire ethnic cleansing in Bosnia was a genocide. But maybe this isn't the right source to cite — he is apparently an anthropologist, and this paper predates the later court rulings on Srebrenica genocide.
    • Walling also states, "Although the removal of populations by states, government elites and rival ethnic groups can be traced to antiquity, distinctive differences exist between contemporary ethnic cleansing and its early antecedents - forced population transfer and removal. These methods are a part of a wider continuum ranging from genocide at one extreme to emigration under pressure at the other. (p. 49)" Perhaps that quote should be used instead. (t · c) buidhe 17:07, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion ethnic cleansing and genocide are not on a continuum - ethnic cleansing is not "little genocide" and genocide is not "big ethnic cleansing." There is an overlap to be sure, but not everyone agrees on what the overlap is ("An instance of genocide would be the Holocaust... ethnic cleansing, while it also involves the intention to exterminate a population, it is more limited to forced deportation or population transfer"[4] "Though others view ethnic cleansing as similar to genocide, in Schabas' opinion, ethnic cleansing and genocide are entirely distinct concepts."[5]). I think your version is better but I don't comparing ethnic cleansing to genocide works. ImTheIP (talk) 07:00, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group..." Does it means that polyethnic Soviet Union under Stalin committed no ethnic cleansing?--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:32, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Paul Siebert, I removed this claim from Version B; it is not included in most definitions as far as I can tell. (t · c) buidhe 18:42, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Version C The original Rfc was misleading in that it gave the false impression that the last sentence of version B could not be added to version A, or that its addition was contested. As I have stated above, that is not the case, and I support its addition to the present version. So regarding the first part of the section, I propose to stick with the consensus version (A, with the additional sentence = C). My arguments are: genocide and genocidal rape are means of ethnic cleansing, and the article should say so. The word' systemic" is fine in this sentence. The sentence in version B about a continuum is not needed, and only pushes the nominators point of view, which is overly focused on a legal definition of the word "genocide" that was adopted recently by the UN, and disregards the normal, dictionary definition of the word. I prefer "Genocidal rape" to "rape", . Debresser (talk) 19:31, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    My version is based on the account of the distinction given in the majority of reliable, scholarly sources. Whereas Debresser has not cited even one source stating explicitly that genocide is a means of ethnic cleansing. (And not all of these scholars, eg Norman Naimark, use the UN definition either). (t · c) buidhe 19:35, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is the source I mentioned above,[6] which can be added, if needed, although I think common sense clearly dictates that genocide is a means of ethnic cleansing. Debresser (talk) 19:38, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify, this source does not explicitly support Debresser's contention that genocide is a means of ethnic cleansing. (see discussion above) (t · c) buidhe 20:01, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Version C. The notion that there is this continuum is particular to just one source afaict and even then I'm not convinced it conveys the source correctly given the context. This may be mentioned in text and attributed but it shouldn't be part of the very first sentence in the lede. Like Debresser I think "systemic" is fine. Volunteer Marek 20:56, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, it is supported by at least four sources using synonymous words, "spectrum" (Naimark, Lieberman), "continuum" (Martin, Walling). (t · c) buidhe 21:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And still it seems out of place. Because, as I said, don't go al legal on us, talk plain English to us, please. Debresser (talk) 02:12, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Debresser: I appreciate the changes you've made with this new version c, but I have to ask; having "systematic and systemic" like that in the opening sentence... are you set on it? Would you consider any change at all to break that up somehow? (Even keeping both words and just spreading them out a little.) As is it just seems kinda clunky. - wolf 01:48, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Absolutely open for improvement. I don't see why we had to start an Rfc with fixed sections, instead of working out all the issues separately. I think that treating each issue separately makes more sense than combining them in one package. I am open to removing "systemic"; even though I think it is correct, it is definitely not necessary. I am open to replacing "genocidal rape" by just "rape". I could even live with the "continuum sentence", even though I really don't think we should have it. And I agreed beforehand without problem to the last sentence. But all of these things together, sorry, then I'd prefer the previous version. As I said, it would have been better to work out issues separately, rather then trying to force-feed us a version with all the problems together. Debresser (talk) 02:10, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the reply and your willingness to reach a compromise. Cheers - wolf 03:05, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Version B
    • Unlike other versions, it is fully supported by reliable sources, verified and it does indeed seem to reflect scholarship, not editor's personal views. It does not include any personal view on the editor's part which may be inferred in the other versions. Davide King (talk) 07:08, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The phrase “by a more powerful ethnic group” should probably be edited or removed, as it is not defining. For example, ethnic cleansing was conducted many times by the Soviet Union’s ideological régime, which did not represent an ethnic group in theory nor in any objective analysis. —Michael Z. 14:22, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Hm, the more I think about it. . . . Accusing an ethnic group, i.e., not just specific individuals, of guilt for a crime, is not acceptable. I presume this is just the result of careless language, but it’s exactly like statements that have historically been used to create division, demonize innocent people, and sometimes to justify ethnic cleansing. —Michael Z. 16:29, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Although you are taking the argument to an extreme. Debresser (talk) 17:02, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Version C, "extermination" in B is covered just as well in C which is anyway more succinct and better phrased than B.Selfstudier (talk) 11:51, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Version B. The fact that ethnic cleansing includes indirect methods and exists as a spectrum (which appear to be the main points of dispute) is well-cited and central to understanding the topic. Furthermore, the aspects of the topic covered by those sentences have significant coverage in the body and should therefore be in the lead. --Aquillion (talk) 14:58, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • None It's a euphemism for genocide, it should be redirected to genocide per these reliable sources [7] [8] the second source being very a high quality one in my estimations " 'Ethnic cleansing' bleaches the atrocities of genocide, leading to inaction in preventing current and future genocides." Spudlace (talk) 21:02, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Version C preferred, or Version A if that is off the table. Version B is too unwieldy for a lead paragraph. That is not to say that the text doesn't belong in other parts of the article, but we do not need a more or less exhaustive list of examples of ethnic cleansing branching off into another list of examples of prevention of return mashed into one sentence. The bit about a continuum (or spectrum, in some sources) is also an interesting addition, but it likewise doesn't belong in the lead. This merits some discussion in its own article section below the lead. AlexEng(TALK) 01:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    AlexEng, Actually, I did a search for the definition of ethnic cleansing and as you can see from the quoted sources, most of them actually do define it as (part of) a continuum. If the proposed paragraph is too long, the issue of criminal categorization could be moved to a separate paragraph in the lead, but I do think that the continuum is emphasized in most definitions and a necessary part of understanding the concept. (t · c) buidhe 01:45, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Even if I accept that (which seems fair), I still can't agree with Version B because of the other issue I described above. Honestly, this is a prickly enough subject that it would have made more sense to more narrowly pose the RfC to a single sentence at a time. As it stands, though, I agree with the more easily graspable language in Version C with the caveat that it could stand to be improved with additional language about the continuum you've presented. AlexEng(TALK) 01:52, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    AlexEng, The problem is that Version C also presents a list of methods of ethnic cleansing "The forces which may be applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), ethnic dilution, intimidation, as well as genocide and genocidal rape." The last two items however, are not supported by reliable sources, and "ethnic dilution" is a technical term that most readers are unlikely to understand. I can see that the list in version B may be too long, but it could be trimmed. (t · c) buidhe 01:59, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RfC result

@Buidhe: How do you figure that your version (B) won? The votes were 1, 6, and 5 for A, B, and C respectively, so, seemingly, the matter is wholly undecided. ImTheIP (talk) 02:35, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ImTheIP, I thought the first step was to remove content that was unsourced and/or factually incorrect, such as the previous content stating that "genocide and genocidal rape" are methods of ethnic cleansing. What changes would you suggest? (t · c) buidhe 03:03, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is no box around the RfC so has it concluded? If not, I believe you should wait. Since opinions were evenly split between A+C and B, it seems fair to try and find a compromise between those versions. ImTheIP (talk) 03:31, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's accurate, RfC's automatically conclude after 30 days. (t · c) buidhe 03:34, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This diff is an attempt at a compromise. Which I think is reasonable since opinions were almost evenly split:

Sentence 1

  • B: Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal or extermination of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.
  • C: Ethnic cleansing is the systematic and systemic forced removal of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.
  • Picked: B

Sentence 2

  • B: Along with direct removal (deportation, population transfer), it also includes indirect methods aimed at coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, torture, arbitrary detention, threats, and property destruction.
  • C: The forces which may be applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), ethnic dilution, intimidation, as well as genocide and genocidal rape.
  • Picked: Along with direct removal (deportation, population transfer), it also includes indirect methods aimed at coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction. One of the objections to version B was that it was too long, so removing some "examples" seem reasonable.

Sentence 3

  • B: Ethnic cleansing is part of a continuum of violence whose most extreme form is genocide, where the perpetrator's goal is the destruction of the targeted group.
  • Struck: Not present in A or C.

Sentence 4

  • B: Although the term ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law, it constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention.
  • C: Although the term ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law, it constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention.
  • Picked: B (they are the same)

ImTheIP (talk) 10:09, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with "systemic"

Systemic means "property of a system".[9] It makes no sense to call something systemic without specifying what system it is a property of. (t · c) buidhe 01:47, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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