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Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Desysop Policy (2021)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Amory (talk | contribs) at 21:58, 20 February 2021 (→‎Support: Good). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/2019 community sentiment on binding desysop procedure (WP:DESYSOP2019) closed with a consensus for a different desysop procedure to the current process that requires the referral to the Arbitration Committee. That discussion did not result in action because no one proposal had the necessary support to achieve community consensus. The close also highlighted concerns that the community had including:

  • The ArbCom process is unnecessarily difficult
  • Administrators who make unpopular calls could face harassment
  • The processes on other projects might not work on the English Wikipedia
  • The community needs a way to address problematic conduct

As a follow-up to that RfC, I am proposing the following be added to the Wikipedia:Administrators policy:

Any user who has is extended confirmed and has made at least 25 edits in the last 6 months may file a request for desysop under the following conditions:

  1. The request must link to at least one thread at a community forum such as AN or ANI that closed within the last 6 months where the closing statement indicates that there was consensus that the administrator behaved inappropriately
  2. The request will then be open for endorsements. If 10 extended confirmed users meeting the filing requirements above, including at least three current administrators, endorse the request within 48 hours, the request will be reviewed by a bureaucrat, and if it meets the requirements certified as being an active request for desysop. If the required endorsements do not occur within 48 hours, the request will be archived as unsuccesful.
  3. Once certified, the administrator being discussed must transclude the request for desysop at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship within 14 days or resign as an administrator. If neither occurs within 14 days of certification, a bureaucrat will transclude the discussion.

When opened, the editor initiating should place notices at WP:AN and WP:BN and WT:RFA. Once a request has been transcluded, it should be added to WP:CENT and notices placed again on WP:AN, WP:BN. The request will remain open for comments for 7 days after transclusion.

If there is a consensus with a minimum support threshold of 60% supporting removal, a bureaucrat will close the request for desysop as successful remove +sysop. Users commenting must meet the requirements for filing a desysop request to support or oppose, but may make general comments if they do not qualify.

TonyBallioni (talk) 20:43, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  1. Support I've traditionally opposed these on the grounds that the current process isn't broken, but I think since the last discussion on this a lot has changed on the project and creating a framework for community initiated desyop that takes into accounts the needs and conditions of the English Wikipedia, while being fair to all involved has likely come about. The framework above aims to provide the community with a way to initiate a desysop process without going through the up to 2 months long process of an ArbCom case, while also providing protections against frivolous filings. The activity requirement for voters is a way to deal with socking, as since EC has been around for a while now, a ton of socks have it.
    I also took into account the traditional benefit of an ArbCom case giving individual under scrutiny time to present their response, by allowing them to choose when to transclude. I think this is fair when dealing with real life circumstances. The 60% threshold goes based on en.wiki's standard practice of requiring consensus to sanction someone, and consensus not being a pure majority. It also is a doable number and not unreachable.
    I don't think this is a perfect proposal, but I do think it is a good first step for a framework that will provide both people who believe an admin has behaved inappropriately clearer guidelines on how to proceed without the need to worry about an ArbCom case, and also provide the administrator under scrutiny fairness to prevent railroading. I also agree with the comment of Sdkb below that this will likely be refined over time, and is a starting place. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:43, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support This sounds like it is well thought out, and has sufficient safeguards to avoid frivolous or retaliatory requests becoming active. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:50, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support I think the endorsements requirement is particularly useful in preventing "grudge" filings. Schazjmd (talk) 20:57, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support I'm not really a fan of requiring three administrators to initiate a desysop, which I would think would go against WP:TROPHY (that is, giving administrators an elevated status in the community). However, I can certainly see why Tony felt it necessary to include that as a requirement, which I imagine would help avoid frivolous desysop requests. With that said, I still consider this to be a net positive, rather than the patchwork of voluntary recall processes that we have that admins may or may not choose to stick to. OhKayeSierra (talk) 21:27, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support, with the caveat that it will likely need tweaking in the future. We currently have no good way to remove admins who got grandfathered in and really shouldn't be admins. This may not be perfect, but it's something, and it can be refined over time as we come to understand how easy or difficult the thresholds are. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:41, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support - I think the community should have a process for removing admins without the bureaucracy and closed-door nature of ArbCom, a process designed for conflict resolution more than figuring out if an admin has retained the community's trust. This proposal has adequate safeguards against frivolous nominations and a relatively high bar to removing the admin bit, which should make the process viable in cases where an admin clearly needs to be removed but allow admins subject to small-scale disputes to be retained. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 21:46, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  7. More strict than my own procedures, so I'm in favor. Seems smooth and strong enough to allow a lot of buy-in while limiting misuse/abuse and most common pitfalls. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 21:58, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Comments

You might say it is implicit, but the the words "or resign as an admin" need to be in point 3. ϢereSpielChequers 20:59, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I meant to add that myself. Added. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:01, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why does the admin being discussed need to transclude the request for desysop? That should be the 'crat imho. GiantSnowman 21:06, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • That was added to give people the flexibility as to when they want to present their case if they are contesting the desysop. I'm sure they could as a crat to do it for them and no one would mind. The goal is not to force them into a discussion when they don't have time to respond because of real world commitments. I'm open to tweaks in the language around that, but it seemed to be the easiest way to address that criticism that has been raised previously during desysop reform proposals. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:10, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why 60%? Why not 50%? Why not 75%? Why not WP:NOTAVOTE. GiantSnowman 21:06, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • RFA has numeric thresholds, as do other projects, and this seems to be the norm for these type of discussions. Our process typically requires consensus to sanction, not consensus to keep the status quo. 60% to me appears as a number that is in line with this concept, but is also not impossible to reach, which 75% arguably would be in most cases. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:10, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm undecided on the general proposal, but two technical questions:
    1. What forum should the request-for-desysop be filed at?
    2. Why 48 hours? That seems like it could be awkward over weekends and holidays - it seems like the critical mass of people needs to be assembled before filing the paperwork, which may or may not be the intention.
    power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:14, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Re: 1, the way I picture it would be something along the lines of Wikipedia:Requests for desysop/Example. This would be linked to at BN, AN, and WT:RFA (just like this RfC). It'd contain the complaint and an endorsement section, and a section for a response.
    Re: 2, it seemed like a reasonable amount of time to allow for endorsements without being something that hangs around forever. I'd be open to something like 72 hours so it would always have a weekday, and actually debated that. I ended up with 48 because I thought that if a frivolous request is filed, you don't really need it there for 3 days. If a serious request is filed where the community agrees, you should be able to get 10 comments supporting it within 48 hours (see: most ANI or ARC threads.) There's also nothing preventing it being re-filed if someone misses the cutoff and would have endorsed to get it to 10. That being said, I'm very open to that number being adjusted. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:19, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • OhKayeSierra, I'll address your point here since I assume others might have it. Currently, it requires endorsement from 6-8 admins/functionaries (i.e. arbs) to initiate a desysop request. What I was concerned about specifically dealt with issues arising from nationalists disputes. I can think of some admins where you could probably find 10 editors on the other side of an ethnic dispute to endorse a request, but you couldn't find a single admin who would.
    I agree it isn't perfect, but so long as we continue to have stuff like India-Pakistan, the Arab-Israeli conflict, Armenia-Azerbaijan this is going to be an issue. The other option to combat that would be to up the endorsement requirements from 10, but that might be too big of a burden to lift. This felt like the easiest compromise on the point. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:33, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two questions about the endorsement stage: (1) Where will it be appropriate to link the desysop request during this stage? (We want to strike a balance between allowing canvassing and having it be totally hidden.) (2) What should people who oppose the dedysop be expected to do during this stage? Just sit it out since it's only for gathering affirmative endorsements, or comment their opposition, which seems like it would make the stage just a slightly less well-advertised version of the actual RfC? Also, if the goal is to allow the respondent to choose the timing of the RfC, comments after an endorsement has succeeded but before the RfC begins should be disallowed. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:48, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • The proposal states AN, BN, and WT:RFA during the endorsement phase. My thoughts would be there, and if there's an active ANI or the like, I also think it would be reasonable to link to as a part of that thread. The standard canvassing rules would apply, in my view.
      On 2, I think having a comments section is reasonable underneath the endorsements so that people can discuss. I also agree once certified there shouldn't be comments until transclusion. Basically we'd need to create a template along the lines of the RfA or AE templates, but these are details in implementation that can be worked out once we get a policy. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:54, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have, in the past, strongly argued for a community-based desysop process, and have written such a proposal myself, and have been a "hawk" when it comes to removing problematic admins. However, I cannot support this proposal in its current form. One single thread in which it is concluded that an admin made one mistake is simply too low of a threshold. There are very few things an admin can do that are so bad that they should have admin tools yanked over a single instance, and in those rare cases, arbcom is actually equipped to act considerably faster than this process. In short, I feel that, as currently structured, this is still too open to gaming and use for harassment. Frivolous requests may not go forward, but after enough of them people will start to argue "there's been five request to desysop, the must be doing something wrong" and we'll lose good admins. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:58, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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