Talk:Jane Hamsher

Comments section

I have placed a request for comment so that other editors may weigh in on whether the section belongs. I have reverted it because it takes a point of view about the FDL comments section vis-a-vis comments sections at other blogs, but cites no outside sources for its assertions. I don't find it remarkable or encyclopedic that a blog moderates comments, and assertions about the rightness or wrongness need to be cited to a reliable source, such as one of the newspaper profiles about Hamsher. --Dhartung | Talk 01:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Copied from dialog at Dhartung's Talk page

Dhartung,

Your removal of the recently contributed text titled "Firedoglake Comments Section" under the entry on Jane Hamsher is out of line. Your comments justifying that reversal violate all three of Wikipedia's content-governing policies [No Original Research, Neutral Point-of-View, Verifiable]. These policies are 'non-negotiable' and your violation of them as an editor is a serious offense to contributors at Wikipedia. While I commend the accuracy of your comments on the previous submission regarding Original Research, you have no right to suddenly switch arguments to suit your opinion that the corrected post is unworthy of a sectional entry in Wikipedia.

Your comments accompanying the deletion were: Dhartung (Talk | contribs) (rv: seriously, 90% of blogs moderate comments, so what? this reads like an axe-grind)

"Seriously, 90% of blogs moderate comments" Where do you get your facts? Is this your opinion or do you have a reference? Your reversal on this comment alone is a violation of the 'No original Research' and 'Non-verifiable' Policies. In addition your opinion is directly contradicted by Wikipedia itself...

Check out the Blogs entry on Wikipedia. It clearly states that comments are used in blogs and that they "are a way to provide discussion on blog entries. Readers can leave a comment on a post, which can correct errors or contain their opinion on the post or the post's subject." Where does it state that blog readers can 'attempt' to leave a comment but that 90% of blogs moderate them?

Further, follow the link to another entry on Wikipedia entitled Feedback comment system. This entry states that Feedback comment systems "are usually placed on blogs". It also states that "Collecting comments from visitors is very important, especially if your website is for commercial purposes. It can help you understand what your visitors are looking for and what your visitors do not want." If a commercial site implies it has a commonly accepted 'Feedback comment system', but does not, then that is an interesting piece of factual information about the site. It could be that it uses the system to create fictional dialogs, market a story, or any number of purposes. The post you deleted does not accuse this site of any of these things. It simply states that the site does not allow comments under the generally accepted definition of a "Feedback comment system" that is used on many "Blogs". It is up to the reader to draw any conclusions or conduct further research, and it does not by inference imply any particular scenario.

"so what?" Do I really need to address the inappropriateness of your comment in regards to an entry in a FREAKIN Encyclopedia??? It is especially troubling to hear this point of view emanating from an Editor of encyclopedia that is an online collaborative effort. Besides the fact that you justify your cavalier 'so what' attitude with only NON-Verified speculation, the larger point is that you seem to have some attachment to this particular page. Which brings me to my final point

"this reads like an axe-grind" How so Dhartung? You seem to be trying to read between the lines here. The entry contains no Point-of-View, it is completely neutral. It is fact based and would be relevant to someone looking for more information on the Firedoglake blog, especially someone having trouble submitting comments. In the future it can be easily abridged with the addition of a documented policy on commenting by the site. Do your frequent additions and contributions to this page cloud your judgment? Based on your complete deletion of the text (with no effort to edit), your varying and contradictory arguments to suppress the contributed content, and your substitution of speculation for fact, I believe it might be you who has the axe to grind. I suggest you re-read the Wikipedia policy defining a Neutral Point-of-View. It applies to deletions and edits as well as contributions. You should know better.

I will resubmit as is. (oops, looks like someone else already has) I am open to your improvements as long as the facts remain articulated, and the content remains in keeping with Wikipedia's three fundamental policies - Original Research, Neutral Point-of-View, Verifiable.

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.121.17 (talk • contribs)

I am confident that I have removed the section per Wikipedia policy. I have argued that the content is a) unencyclopedic (not notable), b) unverifiable (no citations to third parties), and solely constitutes your personal observations. If they were neutral and to the point, they could stay. I do not believe the section is neutral. --Dhartung | Talk 03:41, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

We could moosh two sentences and take out the line:

Regular 'front page' posts at Firedoglake are often in convergence with the Progressive and Libertarian blogging establishment (see blogroles at Atrios, Wolcott, Billmon and other commonly accepted Libertarian or Progressive blogs).

So it reads as follows:

The comments section at Firedoglake implies that comments are accepted from the internet community at large. There is a comment submission form attached to all 'front page' posts. However, there is no documented or published policy that explains the criteria for acceptable comments at the site and no registration process for creating accounts capable of submitting comments. (see Firedoglake) Comments submitted with a valid e-mail address do not register in the comments section so there is no way to verify the authenticity of comments or commenters on Firedoglake. (Select the Firedoglake comments link on any homepage post and enter your comment with a valid e-mail address). Jane Hamsher has not publicly addressed the fact that the comments section at Firedoglake is censored and edited.

That should help cut to the chase and make the entry 'too the point'. I really don't know how to address your assertion that it is not neutral. Exactly what point of view is the section advocating? It does not say this is wrong or right, it has proper tone, its fact based, its a major feaure of the site whether it is spam protection, censorship, a bug, or marketing ploy, and is relevant information to a user of the site of any political persuasion. Go to the site...its completely verifiable.

I don't want to get into this much more with you but you really haven't argued much of anything...just stated your beliefs and opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.121.179 (talk • contribs)

Look, it's the responsibility of the person adding information to have a solid justification. That said, I'm fair, so:

• The political commentary just seems unnotable. A progressive/liberal website has progressive/liberal comments. Um, OK.
• The mere fact of having a comments section merits little more than an acknowledgement, as a small number of prominent blogs do not have them.
• That there is no published policy is also fairly normal for blogs, which are mostly run pretty much ad-hoc. If they have a policy that is unusual, that might be notable.
• Registration information not being displayed is slightly unusual, but is it notable?
• Finally, your concern that Hamsher has not "addressed" what you then call censorship seems suspect, as if you're ticked off about a deleted comment (whether or not you are).

In my view most of the above are simply the result of using WordPress vs. more robust community software such as Scoop or phpBB.

The reason that not every verifiable fact is worth including is that Wikipedia should only be about facts that are notable. If someone else writes about something, that at least shows that it's been noted. Otherwise we would have everybody and his little brother doing ginormous write-ups of their little brother's best friend's website. Look at our articles on Atrios and even DailyKos and you won't see much about posting policies. I think it's far more interesting and notable that Hamsher has opened up front page posting pretty broadly.

Ultimately, Wikipedia is just not a "guide" to using another website.

As I said, I'm fair, so here's my take on the topic, folded into a higher paragraph:

... as a result of the blog. FDL is now published using WordPress and allows limited commenting capabilities without the features found on more robust community sites such as Daily Kos. Volunteer moderators or an automatic spam filter may block comments. Almost all threads run to hundreds of comments.

This describes the community for the general reader without giving the comments undue weight as part of the topic.--Dhartung | Talk 08:04, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

RfC response

The section in question does take on the tone of POV OR. If the material cited a source for its criticism it would be acceptable. As things are, I doubt this rises to the level of encyclopedic material. I agree it would be appropriate to delete the section. Durova 15:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Response

Dhartung, For the most part I agree with what you just said and would agree with your suggested changes. Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts. The topic of comments is covered in other entries on Wikipedia describing blogs (so it is notable to others), however it is condensed to a sentence or two. A published policy or faqs is quite common on blogs that have risen to the level of a firedoglake. I think you would agree that most blogs do not deserve mention in Wikipedia and one's that do, have reached a threshold where unique details of their sites are notable.

Like I said, I am ok with your folding this into the preceding paragraph:

... as a result of the blog. FDL is now published using WordPress and allows limited commenting capabilities without the features found on more robust community sites such as Daily Kos. Volunteer moderators or an automatic spam filter may block comments. Almost all threads run to hundreds of comments.

Durova, I think any possible tone issues are corrected via Dhartung's suggestion. It is similar to other Wikipedia entries on blogs once condensed.

I have read the section on what Wikipedia is/is not. For the record, 'Notable' is a terrible term to use in editing an encyclopedia, especially this one, and I see it is not official policy. It's use as a guideline is in dispute. Think about it. It provides tremendous leeway to editors to justify their opinions on content and is very open to abuse. Encyclopedia's are 'notable' for their depth, their topic, their format. By its very nature, an encyclopedia is a collection of content that is not notable to most people, hence their need. Suggesting content submitted to a worldwide collaborative encyclodia is not notable, goes against the very concept. Any of the points made by Dhartung\Durova could have been better articulated by leaving out the term 'notable', 'unencyclopedic', 'level of encyclopedic', etc. and instead focusing on a more detailed arguement in support of official wikipedia policy. I appreciate your collaboration. This is just a request to avoid the term in the future. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.174.121.179 (talk • contribs) .

This is rather odd: why do you critizize the use of "notable" when I have not used that word? In my opinion, this section is deletable as OR unless a reliable source can be found to verify its claims. I have made no comment about the general encyclopedic value of the article as a whole. Durova 00:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Anon, thanks for being agreeable. You will find that "notable" and "encyclopedic" are used frequently on Wikipedia despite being tricky to define. You will also find extensive guidelines attempting to create working definitions that editors can use. There is broad agreement that the project needs some sort of scope to keep it from being just a webhost for random opinion, and these are terms that are in line with most participants' vision of the project content as being both serious and important. How the determination is made is either by policy, by guideline, or by editorial consensus, in descending order of priority. Obviously there is always judgement involved but usually things can be resolved using these broad metrics. Thanks for your interest in Wikipedia, and I hope you stick around and register. --Dhartung | Talk 09:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Dhartung.

-Anon  :)

FDL and photoshop incident

That section about the photoshop incident is way overblown and looks like more axe-grinding to me. I suggest shortening it considerably or removing it. 67.117.130.181 13:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. --Dhartung | Talk 06:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Dead link and POV problems

First things first: This link doesn't go anywhere: [1]

I have removed the link and added a {{fact}} flag.

And the article seems very POV to me, especially the lawsuits described in the film career section -- none of the links provided mention Hamsher, so it's impossible to deduce that she was linked to the lawsuits except for working on the films in questions. Links which are provided in a biography, especially about legal claims, should at least go to something which name the person involved, in my opinion. I would like to see these removed, or replaced with better citations.

Additionally, this link: [2] is a copy of an LA Times article on Don Murphy's web site, not a valid source for wikipedia. Original sources need to be checked and verified. Plus, the source does not say what the article claims it does. What's more, the linked copy does not say what this article claims it says.

Furthermore, the reference [3] does contain the phrase "colorful expressions of opinion" as claimed in the article, but does not say they are merely such; instead, the full quote is "colorful expressions of opinion are thoroughly disclosed with no fact of any significance falsely stated." The premature truncation of this quote introduces further POV problems into the entry.

In short, this is an entry with serious POV issues related to Hamsher's film career. --Kynn 06:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• While I can agree with the dead link issue (have a mackeral) I must dispute your POV issue completely. Go back several months and you will see the debate that was held. The fact is the woman gets involved in a lot of lawsuits. The fact also is that it is not for us to decide why, simply as a cyclopedia to state the facts. An LA Times article is a VERY good source for this place. Indeed the best source. Who cares whose site they are on. Would you rather host it yourself? Therefore, the article is very valid and has been up here now in this form for some time and is not for you to question. Thanks for playing though. Spawnopedia 07:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

...you're kidding here, right? Let's look at what all you've said. ...the woman gets involved in a lot of lawsuits... Is she notable for her lawsuits? Is this encyclopedic? In any case, most of the articles linked to for the lawsuits do not mention her. ...Who cares whose site they are on... It definitely does matter whose site it is on. A copy of an article on someone else's site is not a valid source for wikipedia. ...is not for you to question... You're totally wrong there. This is wikipedia. Saying "you can't question this" is not appropriate. Everything can be questioned. --Kynn 15:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

if everything can be questioned then Wikipedia has no value. Are you therefore slamming the site? This can lead to banning.Spawnopedia 17:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Cleaning up the article

Despite being told that I can't question this article, I made some changes, and I'm going to explain them here.

• Removal of born Jane Elizabeth Murphy -- I haven't seen a citation for this yet.
• General cleanup of the film career section.
• Removal of by coincidence Hamsher's real last name is Murphy; Hamsher is her mother's maiden name as this is unsourced.
• Removal of The book was later dismissed in the L.A. Times by Stone and those that worked on the film as "inaccurate" and "a cartoon". -- the cited LA Times story [4] is not at a valid location for citing and 'dismissed' is not a fair characterization of the quoted article. (Read it, it's a positive review of the book.)
• Removal of In addition, her book led to Tarantino attacking Murphy in a restaurant in broad daylight because of things she said about him in it. -- the cited story [5] does not imply that Hamsher was involved in this, and it is not listed in [[Don Murphy|Murphy]'s entry nor in Tarantino's. Inclusion here, in the page of someone who was not in the fight, does not seem reasonable here.
  • • I have added an additional footnote that clearly confirms this point. Please do not make changes again. Either use the Sandbox or an Etch A Sketch instead. Spawnopedia 17:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Rewording of The attorney who filed the fraud case, Thomas Ferlauto, later sued Hamsher over her descriptions of him in the book, such as a "whore's son" and "a K-Mart Johnnie Cochran". -- the inclusion of language found to be non-libelous and non-defamatory doesn't add anything to the story, other than attempting to take the language out of context. Note that the decision itself [6] states The statements complained of may not be ripped out of context or, as Ferlauto seeks to do, defined from language in a review on the book's jacket asserting the "horrifically honest" nature of the book.
  • • The sentence AS WRITTEN is 100% accurate- Ferlauto sued because she called him those names. rewriting the sentence so it pleases you is considered vandalism. Please stop. Spawnopedia 17:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
• Removal of An appellate court in Los Angeles eventually found that the language was not defamatory, but merely "colorful expressions of opinion". -- in fact, the appellate court simply upheld the original court's finding.

• • • The quote is taken FROM the appelate court decision. It is not up to Wikians to re-interpret court decisions. Spawnopedia 17:22, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Removal of 'The family of a woman murdered by a pair of spree killers also sued Oliver Stone and others associated with the film, claiming it inspired the murders. -- Jane Hamsher was not named in this lawsuit [7] so there is no reason for its inclusion in this article.
• Removed A shower scene in Apt Pupil was the source of litigation over the use of underaged male actors. -- only one of the three lawsuits [8] [9] [10] filed in this case actually named Hamsher; the others did not. The cases were dismissed for lack of evidence [11]

Based on the comments from Spawnopedia, "The fact is the woman gets involved in a lot of lawsuits. The fact also is that it is not for us to decide why, simply as a cyclopedia to state the facts," I believe that the intent of the items I've removed above is to push the defamatory POV that Hamsher is involved in a lot of lawsuits. However, the number is not particularly excessive, and in fact, several of the citations listed above are lawsuits or incidents that Hamsher herself was not directly involved in, such as the "spree killer" situation. --Kynn 16:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks so much for your feedback. The FACT that somebody os litigious is not defamatory. It is a fact, like the sky is blue. Your other citations are of course incorrect. The purpose of the talk page is to discuss changes not to give you carte blanche to rewrite an article about your friend. Do not revert without consensus. Spawnopedia 17:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)