Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carlsen versus Nepomniachtchi, World Chess Championship 2021, Game 6

Carlsen versus Nepomniachtchi, World Chess Championship 2021, Game 6

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It is unusual for articles to be created for individual chess games. This is reserved for the most famous games such as the Game of the Century and the Evergreen Game. There is no evidence yet that this game is independently notable. The content should be merged into World Chess Championship 2021. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 22:38, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merge as nominator. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 22:38, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as creator. I've already stated on the article's talk page and will repeat it here that this is the longest chess game in a World Chess Championship ever and the first decisive classical game in more than five years, which is the longest winless period in the history of FIDE World Chess Championships. After all classical games in the previous World Chess Championship match were drawn, FIDE increased the number of games from 12 to 14 and changed the time control for this match in order to prevent similar outcome. The fact that we don't have more articles on chess games shouldn't be an argument not to write such articles in the same why we do for matches/games in other sports.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 23:01, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep this is already being discussed as one of the greatest chess games less than a few hours after it ended, along with the historical significance of the game I think this means it can have its own article. Hochithecreator (talk) 23:05, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Who is saying that? Adpete (talk) 23:33, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per nom. Simply being the longest doesn't confer notability for a standalone article and nothing beyond that is shown in the article. Brandmeister^talk 23:15, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral. Merge. Searching for this game has very minimal news coverage. Most of it recent. COULD become notable later, but we’ll see. Jobie James (talk) 23:18, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and merge It is FAR too early to tell how this game will be regarded in future years. In any case, all the article is at the moment is the description of the match situation (which is already in the main article, or should be) plus the unannotated moves of the game. So it would sit perfectly in the main article at the moment. A better approach would be to leave it in the main article, and create a separate article if and when it gets too big for the main article. Adpete (talk) 23:39, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect or merge I redirected this page back to the WCC 2021 page, but was reverted. I was then considering nominating this for deletion, but wanted to wait a week or two. This game may be "notable" for the longest chess game in a World Chess Championship, but any content can be merged into its parent match page World Chess Championship 2021. "First decisive chess game in 5 years" is not significant and is a quirk because of the way chess is being played nowadays. I don't believe this game is being discussed as an all time great game. Natg 19 (talk) 23:46, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I’ve expanded the article with a prose summary about the game.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 00:09, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merge based on WP:RECENT and WP:CRYSTAL. We can determine later if this is notable enough for its own page. For now this should be merged. AlexKitfox (talk) 00:24, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, the longest game in the history of the World Chess Championship and the game that ended the longest ever streak of 19 draws in consecutive World Chess Championship seems notable enough to me to have its own article. I haven't checked English sources but there certainly is good coverage of the match on non-chess specific German sources like Sueddeutsche Zeitung and Kicker. I believe it meets WP:GNG through Significant coverage. Calistemon (talk) 00:41, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't doubt that there are sources, as the World Chess Championship 2021 match is being covered by a wide variety of media outlets. However, I don't believe that those 2 "historical" facts are enough for this game to have its own article Natg 19 (talk) 01:22, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Calistemon. Thanoscar21_{talk, contribs} 00:50, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have no desire to obliterate User:Kiril Simeonovski's excellent content, I just don't think this game needs a separate article. It would not be inappropriate to expand the coverage of this game within the World Chess Championship 2021 article, as it is obviously signficant in the context of the match. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 02:09, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Calistemon. -- Ace*YYC 02:53, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Calistemon. 9ninety (talk)

Merge. If this becomes the only decisive game of the match or there is otherwise sustained interest in the game over time a stand-alone article could be desirable, but for now nothing that can be said here can't be said in the article for the match. It is true that this is the longest World Chess Championship game, but the previous longest game (World Chess Championship 1978 game 5) did not generate enough interest in virtue of its length to warrant a stand-alone article either. Plainsoup (talk) 04:55, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Calistemon. The analysis in this article should be kept, and it is too long to merge into the World Chess Championship 2021 article. The record for longest world championship game gives this game sufficient notability, especially considering that the previous recordholder was not particularly interesting (Karpov and Korchnoi played a dead drawn position for many moves without offering a draw). Davey2116 (talk) 07:20, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 07:45, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I still don't think this deserves an article - how can WP editors possibly improve on the excellent commentary on the web by super-GMs like Anish Giri - but it's pretty obvious by now that this is a WP:SNOWBALL keep. Adpete (talk) 07:59, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- How is this a SNOW keep when the tally at the time of your post was 7 in favor of keeping, 7 in favor of merging? Mlb96 (talk) 08:14, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Ha ha fair point. I just figure that if enough people care enough to want it, let them have it. Adpete (talk) 11:51, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge Too early to say it's historically significant on the level of the other games with articles. That bar is so high that even Steinitz vs. von Bardeleben 1895 doesn't have its own article. Double sharp (talk) 08:07, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- And, thinking of notable WCC games, neither does the Pearl of Zandvoort (Euwe-Alekhine 1935, game 26). Or more recently, Karpov-Kasparov 1985 game 16 or Anand-Carlsen 2013 game 9. Double sharp (talk) 13:23, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I agree in general that WP:GNG is too weak a hurdle for an individual game since WP:NOTNEWS applies unless a game gets wide and lasting attention beyond the news. However, setting a new record for the longest World Championship game ever makes the game considerably more notable than most others and justifies an individual article. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:30, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to World Chess Championship 2021. The reception can be merged, the play turn by turn trivia is fit for chess fan wiki, not Wikipedia. I don't see this passes WP:GNG for stand-alone article. Sorry, chess-fans. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:04, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment To those referring to WP:GNG, please note that it's only a guideline, not a rule, which means that we should look at additional criteria such as article's quality. As for its importance and impact, the game has already been described as 'epic'.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:38, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- As was 2018 Game 6 https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/nov/16/world-chess-championship-game-6-carlsen-caruana Adpete (talk) 11:51, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - That game was also great but it didn't break any chess record and the stereotype that "classical chess is dead". This game is important because its decisive result ends a five-year period of 19 consecutive drawn games spanning three different championships, and it comes after the format of the World Chess Championship was changed and a new time control was introduced. That's a very big deal.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:10, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep — Not only was this the longest game in a World Chess Championship — a record which was broken after 43 years, it was also the longest win — a win that came after nearly five years and 19 straight draws. In addition to Calistemon's sources, I found — The Guardian, The Washington Times, ABC (newspaper), and News.com.au — neither of which are chess-centric. The case for meeting GNG is somewhat weak (not too weak though) because of NOTNEWS, and we don't know how historically significant this would be considered later on. But the fact that it broke those notable records, in addition to the press coverage it has received, should be enough to establish notability. The point that Wikipedia does not usually have articles dedicated to individual chess games should not be used as a precedent in deciding whether or not it is appropriate to write them. — The Most Comfortable Chair 10:57, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- most of those sites are covering most games of the match anyway: Washington Times, The Guardian, ABC Newspaper. Not news.com.au, admittedly. But news coverage of a game does not make it WP-article-worthy. Adpete (talk) 11:51, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why I mentioned that the argument is somewhat weak. It is primarily the record in context of what chess has now become (in terms of accuracy as well as popularity) that it becomes notable. Note how sources that I cited discuss the record. It was not just an average 60-move win, and that is reflected in the sources. Quite heavily so in chess-centric media actually (more so than it would be if it was just another World Championship win). All things considered, I do find the topic to be notable enough to have a stand-alone article, but I do see why others may not see it that way, and they have good points too. — The Most Comfortable Chair 12:15, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it can boil down to how notable you consider this record to be. You would generally expect a chess game to end sooner rather than later after the 40th move and it is incredibly rare to see games that go over the 100 move mark in World Championships. Not only did this go above and beyond the time you would expect a championship game to last (136 moves over 7 hours and 45 minutes), it broke a 43-year old record and brought an end to a 5-year streak of draws across 3 championship matches. In my understanding, that is notable enough considering how crucial just your average World Championship wins are. — The Most Comfortable Chair 12:28, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Kiril Simeonovski's argument. A lack of articles on past notable chess games should not set a precedent for a lack of articles on current and future notable chess games. It is the longest (and arguably most complex/highest level) game in World Championship history, which in itself merits an article. A lack of news coverage by non-chess sites within a day of the game's finish is not a strong argument to merge the game; chess games gain notability through the publication of literature analyzing them, not because a mainstream site decided to make a short, one paragraph article on them. If in the future there is a complete lack of overall coverage on the game (and it seems it has just blended into the rest of the games of this year's Championship), then it would merit merging, but as of right now, there seems to be enough distinction between it and the other games that would warrant it its own article. Haydenaa (talk) 15:20, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]