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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Panama1958 (talk | contribs) at 08:45, 7 December 2021 (→‎Not Celts: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"were"

The article speaks about the Celtic Britons in the past tense as if they don't exist anymore. They do; the Welsh and the Bretons. There is direct, uncontroversial, unbroken continuity between this people and the Welsh-speaking Welsh people of today. Claíomh Solais (talk) 21:28, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence? The Banner talk 21:47, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The Britons were the inhabitants of Britain prior to the Saxon age. It's not a very satisfying term because it implies a cohesion that certainly didn't exist, but it is what it is... a convenient label. The relationship between the Britons and the Welsh is dealt with in some detail in the article. We don't call Welsh people Britons because although they are descended from Britons and still live in Britain, they are distinct from other descendants of Britons who live in Britain.
I live in the Welsh-speaking part of Wales, where the traffic signs appear in Welsh before they appear in English. The idea that the Welsh-Speaking Welsh are a pristine ethnic group that have unbroken continuity from the people who lived here in the iron age is laughable. They are a modern, ethnically diverse people who often just happen to be educated in the Welsh medium by virtue of their primary school catchment area. Many of them have no familial links whatsoever to Wales. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 07:18, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously there has been some post-Roman infiltration of outside groups, particularly the Normans in the South of Wales, but to the same extent that the Native Americans are descended from pre-Columbian people, the native Welsh people are a continuation of the Celtic Britons, including critically, the language. The culture of the Mabinogion and Y Gododdin which directly connects the pre-Saxon Britons to the Welsh is considered the cultural patrimony of the Welsh nation to the extent that it isn't in regards to the English or later tourists like the Normans for example. There are also old Welsh prophesies such as the Mab Darogan, which dream of the restoration of Celtic hegemony in Britain. Claíomh Solais (talk) 12:13, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But that is not evidence. The Banner talk 12:44, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The bottom line is that sources don't support the notion that the Welsh "are" the ancient Britons. They are descended from the ancient Britons, as are other groups. The Native American example is not fitting in that there is not and never was a single "Native American" identity. It's more along the lines of the Aztec. This was a particular culture that existed in the 14th-16th centuries; today there are many millions of people descended from the Aztec, but sources do not claim modern Mexicans "are" Aztecs.--Cúchullain t/c 13:32, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that comparison is that the modern Mexicans have, to a large extent, abandoned their native culture and language for an artificial, externally imposed Spanish derived overlay. Other examples counter that, the Maya peoples still exist for example. A significant element of the Welsh people, especially in the north and west, are by objective definition Celtic Britons (language, culture, ancestry, identity), never stopped being Celtic Britons and remain un-Anglicised. So if these people exist today, which they do, how can we speak of Celtic Britons in the past tense? 20% of the inhabitants of Wales today are native speakers. Claíomh Solais (talk) 21:57, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
However compelling you may think your argument is, you cannot ignore two important facts:
Not entirely accurate, the Welsh are still called Britons (Breatnaigh) in the Irish language. BananaBork (talk) 08:02, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Right. Peoples who have maintained a Maya identity are still called Maya. Millions of other people descended from the Maya who have not maintained a Maya identity are not called Maya. The Welsh consider themselves descendants of the Britons but, by and large, do not call themselves "Britons" in either Welsh or English. The distinction is more or less intellectual, but there's also the matter that they are only one of the existing groups descended from the Britons, which were separated from one another for centuries and diverged considerably.--Cúchullain t/c 14:12, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
They're the ancestors of the modern native British, including in England. We all acknowledge that. To say that they're "the Welsh and the Bretons" is a rather odd comment to have been made in 2017. 2007, maybe, but we've stopped buying into the Victorian-era wipe-out myth by now, surely!203.220.104.10 (talk) 01:35, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Evidence? The Banner talk 08:11, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This article refers to how people in Britain are very similar genetically. https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31905764Halbared (talk) 22:49, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not relevant. The Banner talk 11:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Can you expand please, how is it not relevant? The article is about how there is little genetic difference in the people of Britain, which is what the previous editor was referring to.Halbared (talk) 11:18, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Please read the original article (better: the abstract). It says something different than this popular-scientific article. The Banner talk 15:38, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This Is Not True

"The indigenous Britons of Roman Britain were genetically closely related to the earlier Iron Age female Briton, and displayed close genetic links to modern Celts of the British Isles, particularly Welsh people, suggesting genetic continuity between Iron Age Britain and Roman Britain, and partial genetic continuity between Roman Britain and modern Britain.[38][37] On the other hand, they were genetically substantially different from the examined Anglo-Saxon individual and modern English populations of the area, suggesting that the Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain left a profound genetic impact."

Modern Welsh people have substantial levels of I (close to 15%) as well as E1b (5%). Modern Welsh people are around 75% R1b, however not all R1b is Celtic, and that is especially so the case for people in the British Isles. While it IS lower than it is in England and Lowland Scotland, R1b-U106 (which again was brought by Germanic settlers to the British Isles) is a fairly significant percentage of the R1b in the modern Welsh population, again this has simply been absent from the Celtic Britons. What you CAN say is that the modern Welsh population retains SLIGHTLY more genetic inheritance from Celtic Britons than do people in England and Lowland Scotland, but it is slight, we're talking about a difference of maybe 20-30% at the absolute maximum. Here's some sources:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1287948/ https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2003/capelli-CB-03.pdf https://www.familytreedna.com/public/BritishIsles/ https://www.familytreedna.com/public/walesdna/

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.79.26 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Carr went became East Anglia?

" Caer Went had officially disappeared by 575 AD becoming the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of East Anglia". I think this is a mistake... Should it be a different kingdom? It is nearer to Wales than East Anglia MCG 06:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I did my research. It's a different Carr went. 

MCG 06:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Not Celts

Current thinking says that the Britons were not Celts that migrated from Europe. This article needs a complete rewrite in that light. Panama1958 (talk) 08:45, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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