Talk:Russian Orthodox Army

RNU connections

Since we have sources speaking both for and against this, article needs to reflect this until the historians reached some kind of consensus on the topic. BP OMowe (talk) 18:01, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

There's no contradiction. I have the book in front of me. The relevant page (p. 207) reads (note: RNE or "Russkoe natsional’noe edinstvo" = RNU):

"The most famous of them, Pavel Gubarev, a prominent spokesman with multiple titles (leader of the Donbas militia, governor of the Donetsk People’s Republic, its foreign affairs minister, and the founder of the Novorossiya party), claimed to lead the RNE section in Donetsk. He thanked the movement for providing him with military training in the early 2000s, and videos from the RNE congress confirm his attendance.79 However, there is no reliable information about when the RNE affiliates in Ukraine were created.80 An RNE office is said to have opened at the central administration of Donetsk in the early months of the insurrection. Dmitrii Boitsov, leader of the so-called Orthodox Donbas organization, is rumored to have taken orders from Barkashov. 81 Mikhail Verin, commander of the “Russian Orthodox Army,” also is suspected of being close to Barkashov, but these links are mentioned by unreliable Ukrainian sources, and the movement’s Facebook page displays no particular link to the RNE.82 The fact that Barkashov did celebrate the insurgents’ actions on his Facebook page does not mean that they took orders from him." - Laruelle, M. (2019). Russian Nationalism: Imaginaries, Doctrines, and Political Battlefields. United Kingdom: Routledge.

EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 19:53, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Russian Orthodox Army and Orthodox Donbas are two separate, but closely related, groups

This seemed to have even confused at least one editor on RU Wikipedia who's written Дмитрий Бойцов (Dmitrii Boitsov) as leader of the Russian Orthodox Army (Русская православная армия) instead of Orthodox Donbas (православный донбасс). The latter org was never as prolific as the former, but there are recorded conversations (May 2014) between Boitsov and Barkashov, and they share essentially the same ideological background, however I'd have to dig deep into RU web to find out if Orthodox Donbas still even exists. While I'm at it, I'm also going to try and find more recent references to the Russian Orthodox Army, and especially where the 4,000 figure comes from and what exactly was its relationship with Strelkov. EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 20:13, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

From http://www.eoi.at/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Ukraine-gon_eng_web.pdf:

"Number of personnel: unknown (according to Russian journalists, approximately 4,000; according to witnesses, up to 500)"

"The Russian Orthodox Army was created in May 2014 on the basis of the Shchyt"

"In September 2014, the Russian Orthodox Army changed its format and joined the new Oplot Fifth Separate Infantry Brigade."

I updated the article to reflect this. 106.215.40.96 (talk) 17:09, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

That's more like it! I can't "thank" you for an edit until you've registered. Why don't you sign up and join us? - EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 17:21, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Some basic sources to get us started (I'm out of time for now)

Matveeva, A. (2017). Through Times of Trouble: Conflict in Southeastern Ukraine Explained from Within. United States: Lexington Books.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/10/ex-russian-separatists-on-whether-another-ukraine-war-is-possible

https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/paramilitary-forces-ukraine-matches-powder-keg

https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/battle-debaltseve-hybrid-army-classic-battle-encirclement

Shore, M. (2018). The Ukrainian Night: An Intimate History of Revolution. United Kingdom: Yale University Press. (p. 234)

Kaarina Aitamurto, Sanna Turoma, Slobodanka Vladiv-Glover. Religion, Expression, and Patriotism in Russia. (2019). Germany: Columbia University Press. (p. 42)

Kuzio, T. (2015). Ukraine: Democratization, Corruption, and the New Russian Imperialism. United States: ABC-CLIO. (p. 110)

- EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 17:38, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

They don't offer anything that hasn't been already covered on this article.

And don't make edits like you did here because the source does not say that these groups are "related volunteer groups" but as one of the "many groups of nationalist volunteers active in the Donbas". We don't need information about them just to distract from this Russian Orthodox Army that has no connection with them. 106.215.40.96 (talk) 17:51, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Wow, you're a quick reader!

Shall I quote more from the source you seem keen to denounce, shall I? To support my case that it is of scholarly worth?

green text "The Ukrainian state is decried as an artificial construct sponsored by the Bolsheviks to weaken Russia. Many of the insurgent groups are rooted in the same ideological brand. One of them, the “Russian Orthodox Army,” stresses its religious identity. Its fighters added an Orthodox cross to the Novorossiya flag and present themselves as “crusaders” and “soldiers of Christ” (voiny khristovye). Their website justifies violence, stating, “Orthodoxy is the religion of the strong.” On one of the official sites of the Donetsk Republic, ikorpus.ru, an anonymous text declares, “Above all, we are fighting for Christ, transmitted to us by our parents and ancestors.” (p.201-2)

green text Even if their ideological background is only vaguely formalized, the massive presence of Cossack troops in eastern Ukraine favors the revival of this “white” reading of Novorossiya... (p. 203)

green text The RNE is a unique case of a defunct nationalist organization whose name became such a brand that it can be instantly reactivated, based only on its faded glory. The movement’s website, soratnik.com, dormant since 2006, was relaunched with the crisis in Ukraine. Many central figures in Donetsk have referred, directly or indirectly, to the RNE. The most famous of them, Pavel Gubarev, a prominent spokesman with multiple titles (leader of the Donbas militia, governor of the Donetsk People’s Republic, its foreign affairs minister, and the founder of the Novorossiya party), claimed to lead the RNE section in Donetsk. He thanked the movement for providing him with military training in the early 2000s, and videos from the RNE congress confirm his attendance... (p. 206-7)

green text Novorossiya was a unique theater for Russian nationalism... Anti-Semitism is one common thread, as Jews can be concurrently denounced as oligarchs and capitalist bankers, as enemies of Christianity and of Russia, and as polluting the White Aryan race... In fact, the second and third ideological themes behind Novorossiya exhibit anti-liberalism but a pro-European posture: through Christian connections for the former, and through the White Power slogan for the latter, they have developed deep interactions with some of their Western European counterparts.

green text These three motives also overlap in some of their networks. Dugin is a producer of both the first and the third interpretations, faithful to his dual Eurasianist and neo-fascist stance. Some youth groups, such as the Russian Imperial Legion, play on both the Black Hundreds and neo-Nazi imagery. Last but not least, the third motif is the most paradoxical, as it reveals an open fracture within the neo-Nazi groups between pro-Ukrainians – still a minority – and pro-Russians. (p. 208-9)

EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 18:28, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

N.B. Pavel Gubarev, alleged founder of the ROA (and the New Russia Party) was both an openly declared adherent (claimed to be a member in fact) of the neo-Nazi RNE. His political party is/was not explicitly neo-Nazi, but Duginist neo-fascist. EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 18:32, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Except for the first paragraph, the rest of the whole text is about RNE, not ROA. Two different groups. 106.215.40.96 (talk) 18:34, 9 April 2022 (UTC)