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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MaxSem (talk | contribs) at 09:21, 23 August 2022 (k). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

National Republican Army (Russia)

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National Republican Army (Russia) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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This article is for an organization that is currently only alleged to actually exist. The only sources listed are a Guardian article reporting a statement by the Russian opposition politician Ilya Ponomarev, which explicitly states that "The Guardian has not verified the authenticity of Ponomarev’s claims", and a manifesto posted on Twitter which has been copy-pasted here in its entirety.

I think this is a case of too soon. If the existence of this organization can be independently verified by other sources, then the article has a reason to stay up. But as of yet, this is just an article based on an unsubstantiated claim of an organization that may or may not even exist. Grnrchst (talk) 09:01, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this article deserves deletion. Sure, there are not much information about the organisation, but that's only because this organization surfaced just few hours ago. It is verified by many independent sources. They also sent out this manifesto through their official Telegram chatroom called Rospartisan. They are legit, they are true. Don't delete this page! We will update it as soon as more fact-checked information surfaces. 2A01:C846:D81:FE00:D581:C34D:D22C:9E12 (talk) 09:21, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If their existence has indeed been "verified by many independent sources", then it should be no problem for you or others to add those sources to the article. An "official Telegram chatroom" is not sufficient evidence, at best it's a primary source but it's definitely not reliable. Grnrchst (talk) 09:37, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Grnrchst I see your point and your probably right it´s too soon, but are there not plenty of articles about alleged organisations, Beings, and so on... Mr.Lovecraft (talk) 10:16, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That other stuff exists is not a sufficient reason to keep an article. Grnrchst (talk) 10:26, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ilya Ponomarev currently appears to be the only source of their existence as telegram channel Rospartizan supposedly belongs to him. 185.252.109.200 (talk) 14:21, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. No hurry to take it down and no reason. Wait and see who edits it. 38.70.156.135 (talk) 21:50, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
KEEP - Now that the page is created, I think we should wait. The things are evolving so quickly, and new information becomes available everyday. We should wait for a certain period of time, before deleting it. As people are more likely to add the information onto existing page, than create a new one. Wiki6995 (talk) 03:44, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
KEEP - I have been a user of Wikipedia for many years and I really can't believe that Wikipedia is censoring by denial when Russians themselves think they can be arrested for any reason by their Government. They clearly exist, they have published a manifesto and taken responsibility for a terrorist act. One can hardly expect such an organisation to do more than they have considering the Government of biggest country in the world is after them. The manifesto is on YouTube, the terrorism is all over the world's media. Wikipedia can certainly put a caution comment at the top but to delete is censorship of the worst kind. If you do this you might as well delete my account because it will be the last time I trust or use Wikipedia. Davidpalmer24 (talk) 18:13, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't censorship, it's a question of notability and verifiability. Grnrchst (talk) 18:58, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is a bombing in Moscow notable, or verifiable? Veskers (talk) 21:56, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please keep it. We can't really expect them to publish membership lists and even the knowledge that they are new is helpful when looking up who they are. 2003:DC:B720:543:4ECC:6AFF:FE93:1F63 (talk) 10:54, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete iffy sources and could even be a hoax at this point. Oaktree b (talk) 11:30, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you think it could be a hoax? Super Ψ Dro 11:54, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The lack of sources and the fact the Guardian didn't verify the fact. Oaktree b (talk) 15:13, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The lack of sources is probably a consequence of current censorship in Russia. Many western media outlets left Russia near the start of the war, or were limited in how they can operate in Russia (what they can say, or their personnel in Russia would be arrested). They're probably forced to wait until Russian sources like RT cover whatever the official line is.
I don't think it is a hoax unless the original video of Dugin himself is fake, but that doesn't seem to be the case as of 08/22/2022 since western media outlets are covering the story (BBC, The Daily Beast, CNN, etc). Veskers (talk) 22:02, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Give it a few days. I don't believe this topic will be notable but there's many important Western newspapers already writing articles on this organization. Most sources are less than 24 hours long. It would be too soon and perhaps a mistake if this article was quickly deleted. White-blue-white flag was nominated for deletion very quickly and the result was to merge, but as the discussion developed, so many new sources appeared that the topic now had sufficient coverage and was kept. Super Ψ Dro 11:54, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, too soon. WikiHannibal (talk) 12:11, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Super Dromaeosaurus, at least for time being, until events in near future prove or disprove the group's notability. —Sundostund (talk) 12:20, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep' 143.178.169.125 (talk) 12:25, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Everything is based on Ponomaryov's claims. Until there is independent confirmation of this group's existence, it should be regarded as fictional and it does not meet notability guidelines. Mellk (talk) 12:28, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The manifesto was posted to Twitter by someone other than Ponomaryov. But even if it was it doesn't matter because so many reliable source consider his claims notable enough for publication. -- GreenC 14:14, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, a random Twitter account, forget about WP:V. Mellk (talk) 14:30, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I get that people are excited about a potential resistance group of some sort, but the reporting is sensationalist and we know nothing about this "group" apart from some claims by one person, which could be some SBU hoax or whatever, who knows. Just because various news sources have mentioned it does not mean it automatically qualifies to have its own article, this is not what it says in notability guidelines. Mellk (talk) 14:34, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Mentioned in many press articles, simply search for it on Google. Those sources can be integrated into the article gradually. -- Rauisuchian (talk) 12:35, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep because alleged things can be notable. Notability is determined by sources, not truth. -- GreenC 14:14, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed. Decolonizetheinternet (talk) 14:25, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Are there enough reliable sources to determine notability though? Currently it doesn't seem like there are, as all information of this organisation comes from one person. To contrast, the FSB has claimed the attack was carried out by a Ukrainian named Natalia Vovk, but there isn't an article for this alleged person. It doesn't seem like this alleged group has any notability of its own, outside of the assassination of Darya Dugina, so I don't understand why there needs to be a separate article right now. Grnrchst (talk) 14:45, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there any reliable source coverage about this Natalia Vovk person? Regards SoWhy 15:05, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Like the alleged NRA, a number of publications have reported on it,[1][2][3] and like the alleged NRA, there is only one source responsible for this information. Given this, I don't think either are currently notable enough to warrant their own articles. The article about Dugina covers this information well enough for now. Grnrchst (talk) 15:13, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The article is poignant and should not be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.205.4.176 (talk) 09:04, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. While it is possible it turns out its size and importance are being misrepresented by Ilya Ponomarev, that much of the claimed actions are not theirs, or even that the organization isn't real, the fact of the matter is that this is being reported on everywhere. It is only likely to gain notability and worldwide coverage (even if it ends up being fake). What matters most is if the topic is notable enough to be present on Wikipedia, and I would say this easily covers notability guidelines/standards. Also, to all editors citing "too soon", I would like to point out that isn't a part of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. It is an essay on notability by editors. That doesn't make it irrelevant or unimportant, but it is not a valid reason for removal, especially as Wikipedia articles on current events and news have become more and more common. -- SharkyIzrod (talk) 14:21, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Aside from the issue of "too soon", is this subject currently notable enough to warrant its own article? Given that all reports about it stem from a single source (Ponomarev), I don't see why this currently necessitates an article separate from the one discussing the death of Darya Dugina (which itself includes other claims, from different sources, about the attacker[s]) or the one about Ilya Ponomarev itself.
    Both of these articles are much longer and have clearer notability. Nothing that's currently said in this article couldn't be easily incorporated into them. Of course its notability may change in the future, but Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Grnrchst (talk) 14:57, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I created a draft for the subject Draft:National Republican Army (Russia). It was clear there was not enough for an article with the limited amount of reporting. This should be put into draft space until there is more reliable information. Thriley (talk) 14:37, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree with draftifying as an alternative to deletion. Grnrchst (talk) 14:58, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait. There is so little known about the group as of now, it might be a front or it might be the start of a serious terrorist organisation. They certainly pass notability guidelines at the very least. 78.152.254.96 (talk) 14:38, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or merge with Killing of Darya Dugina. There is clearly no independent notability now. Wikisaurus (talk) 15:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree with merging as an alternative to deletion. Grnrchst (talk) 15:13, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I think this should have stayed as a draft awaiting more sources/developments, while being mentioned explicitly on Darya Dugina's and Ilya Ponomarev's articles. Actually there's a good bit with sources at the end of Ponomarev's article pointing out the claims can't be verified. Narananas (talk) 15:12, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Whether and how it exists in reality may be debatable, but in any case it already exists as a term. Newspapers all over the world are writing about it and people are looking for information about it on Wikipedia. We cannot stick our heads in the sand. --Kychot (talk) 15:49, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The term existed for a long time to refer to the pro-Nazi Italian army National Republican Army. Mellk (talk) 16:11, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Agreed. JOSDC (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This is a case of WP:TOOSOON which I mentioned on the talk page of the article. This orgnization was only known to have "existed" yesterday, we know almost nothing about it, by Wiki standards this is nothing more than a rumor. Fijipedia (talk) 16:06, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    We know who their leader is, their manifesto and of a bombing they committed in Moscow which killed a woman that has/is making international headlines. Wikipedia articles have been made over less significent events and organizations. It's breaking news, yes, but are you proposing Wikipedia have a certain minimum time limit, before articles can be made? There's no rule about making a Wikipedia article on something which happens today, or "yesterday". Veskers (talk) 22:05, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, Wikipedia is not a newspaper. — SummerKrut 16:23, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep A deletion of this page in this moment is not very thoughtful. We should be able to keep this until more info unfolds. Then rewrite the page or incorporate it with the article about the war (i.e. special military operations).
    Question the page, ask for better references, but ask for deletion - that is nothing but stupidity. Red squared! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.52.6 (talk) 16:42, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is a developing event/organisation. It should be available for verifiably sourced updates as they come to light. It should however also be closely monitored so that it doesn't become a sparring ground for vandalism. At the very least, placing it in a Draft holding pattern might be warranted. MelioraCogito (talk) 17:59, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I agree with the arguments of limited evidence, but that is exactly what we should be educating people about. The references discussing it are solid; it is being discussed by reliable sources. Wikipedia is here to inform. People are googling this and Wikipedia needs to inform them this is mostly the claim of a single source but it is being taken seriously by reliable sources. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 18:13, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the skepticism of the claims of the NRA's very existence is entirely warranted, and I feel amenable to draftifying the article if necessray. However, I would write as someone who's put time into the Ilya Ponomarev page, that it seems readily apparent that he and the media outlets he created are willing to propagandize for the group which in some ways makes it real. It is also notable that Ilya Ponomarev, a dissident parliamentarian, has embraced not only the rhetoric of the (R)NRA, but is broadcasting what amount to instructions on propaganda of the deed. I don't think he'd do that unless he's basically given the group his blessing –which is enough of a force in itself to keep the page. Evackost (talk) 18:37, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for bringing your knowledge about Ponomarev to the table. I'm still unconvinced that Ponomarev's connection itself warrants a separate article, but I appreciate you adding this perspective. Grnrchst (talk) 18:48, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This page documents an important area of the Russian Invasion of Ukraine. It should be improved, made more neutral, and made more reliable with more references, but it shouldnot be deleted. --HarmfulHurdle91 (talk) 18:44, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait More and more sources are writing about this organization and can determine its notability. If this is deleted, merge it into Darya Dugina &/or the draft article. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 18:48, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is a serious allegation legitimized by the fact that Ilya Ponomarev is a venerable dissident respected by Western intelligence. LordParsifal (talk) 18:49, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Wikipedia is not a hearsay tabloid. 172.58.203.194 (talk) 19:31, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (with warnings)
    The scant information will serve as call for more information/verification. Besides; Wikipedia dedicates a page to the Loch Ness Monster - a page that contains the following statement "Evidence of its existence is anecdotal, with a number of disputed photographs and sonar readings."
    The National Republican Army 'is a thing' as the kids say! 2A00:23C8:AD80:2201:58:2270:D28B:9D57 (talk) 20:07, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (with warnings) The article makes clear that it is an alleged organisation; it is useful to know that it is connected with Ilya Ponomarev, and I wouldn't have known this but for Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Bavington (talk • contribs) 21:23, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
KEEP - Even if this organization does not exist, it's still notable. The "Ghost of Kyiv" also has a Wikipedia page, and he's fictional. SuperSardus (talk) 23:24, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - A bombing in Moscow is a major event, especially during wartime. A woman lost her life. I think it is disrespectful to the person who lost her life to deny an article documenting the organization which planned/executed it. Vladimir Putin himself is talking about this bombing, why can Wikipedia users not read about what happened and who committed it?
I don't see any compelling arguments for the article to be removed. More sources would be nice, but for obviously such a new organization is going to have limited information available. Person some material from Ilya Ponomarev's page should be added to the article, since he seems to be the group's leader currently. Veskers (talk) 22:12, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - This organisation claimed responsibility for at least one act of terrorism/aggression, which makes it relevant to the conflict. Currently a weak keep, give it another week and see what happens. ArticCynda (talk) 22:31, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Obviously very important to have some content on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.72.9.161 (talk) 01:15, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to Darya Dugina#Killing (or any article that may arise out of that section) as it doesn't seem the group, if it even exists, has any notability outside of the assassination. I know WP:BLP1E doesn't apply to organizations, but the general principle I think makes sense in this case. ansh.666 01:41, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The story is still developing and more evidence could surface of this being a real organization. Even if it turns out to be fake, I believe it is still notable enough to show the organization as a made-up entity, as someone else said, the Ghost of Kyiv was a fictitious entity but still has its own article.Glakes (talk) 03:33, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • draftify or delete I'm seeing numerous keep responses here that are all hypothetical: it may be important, but then again, it may be all bullshit. We do way too much news-reporting-editing anyway, but as there is no deadline, this is a clear case where we can wait to publish an article until we can be sure that its subject can be substantiated. Keep it as a draft if you want, but if we can give it some time to develop and see if it does amount to something, it can spend that time in draft space or somewhere else outside the articles proper. Mangoe (talk) 03:52, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Alleged entities have articles, so why not?RKT7789 (talk) 04:01, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The main argument for "delete" seems to be that this organization might not exist, at least not as an authentically Russian organization. Even if it exists only in Ukrainian propaganda, it is still notable and we can still have an article about it. Compromat2 (talk) 06:13, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Keep (with warnings), Wait or Redirect all seem like reasonable choices. If this gets deleted & then afterwards the group turns out to be fully legit, it means more work to put the page back and essentially is a capitulation to those who don't like this page's existence because it reveals an inconvenient truth. JoeWiki1969 (talk) 07:24, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep 16 refs at present and plenty of fictional organisations have wiki articles. Tiny Particle (talk) 08:44, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, depending on how the situation develops I don't mind it being merged into the article on Dugina's assassination, but deleting makes no sense, as particular pieces of information in this article are worthy of inclusion. Max Semenik (talk) 09:21, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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