Talk:Hata clan

No references have been provided on this dubious information regarding descent from "the Lost Tribes of Israel". In fact it says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofun_era#Kofun_society, that the Hata clan were descended from Qin Shi Huang with references to its claim. --Darthanakin 10:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you miss my citation of Ikuro Teshima? It's right above the unreferenced tag. Teshima is by no means a reliable source, but I think this is sufficiently inferred in the "Shinshukyo and Common Origin Theory" section. I explained that "most serious scholars have not jumped to the conclusion..." and intentionally phrased it to indicate that these are all "claims" of individual writers. Certainly not a theory entertained by the mainstream of scholarship, I still think it's important to mention that some new religions and other strange philosophies are based around this sort of thing. It's like including conspiracy theories in an article on JFK's assassination - it doesn't have to be true or widely accepted to be interesting and important in its own way. LordAmeth 19:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry mate, didn't notice that. But still right at the beginning of the article, it seems to suggest that this Lost Tribes of Israel theory is prevalent without giving sources, especially this

While some claim that the Hata were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel, others believe the tribe was more likely from the steppes of Turkestan, traveling to Japan not along the Silk Road, but as slave labor for the construction of the Great Wall of China. Both groups agree on Semitic origins of the Hata, theorizing that they brought Ancient Hebrew culture to Japan at a very early time in its cultural development.

I find this highly ironic, given that Qin Shi Huang was the guy that had the wall built.--Darthanakin 16:02, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes yes, a very good point. Strange that references to Qin Shi Huang isn't even mentioned in the article; a major oversight on my part. Please do feel free to rephrase this as necessary; I shall leave myself a note to come back to this to add in information from other sources. LordAmeth 17:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Jewish connections

As explained above, this is a minority opinion, and more than likely a myth. It is, however, not any pseudo-cultic thing I am trying to put forth, nor any sort of propaganda. It is an interesting and important aspect of the theories and ideas that surround this clan. If you read the section on Shinshukyo, you will see that there are very real groups that put forward this theory. Though they may be cults, and they may be completely incorrect about the Hata's origins, that does not make the information any less valid as historical, sociological information about the beliefs of certain New Religion groups. LordAmeth 15:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply

Firstly the use of the term 'tribe' is non standard. Conventionally, population groups of this type are refered to as 'clans', eg. Nakatomi clan, Yamato clan etc. This usage is doubly problematic in that it reinforces the eronious opinion that this group are one and the same as one of the lost tribes of hebraic mythology. This usage might be passable if it were suggested which of the biblical tribes the Hata are to be identified with.

After presenting this fringe opinion, the artical then procedes as though it were established and accepted fact. The suggestion then, that the Hebrew-Hata built the Great Wall of China as slave labourers belongs to the same genre of Jewish nationalist pseudo-history as the idea that the Pyramids of Giza were built using enslaved Hebrews.

The comment that the Hebrew-Hata acted as financial advisers to the imperial court asks for the readers complicity in the stereotyping of hebraic (or in this case alleged hebraic) peoples as insinuating themselves into political power by controling finances. This is gravely cretinous. If you will not allow for the editing of this point then I will flag the entire article, though I am loath to do it as I am a fierce opponent of the use of the charge of anti-Semitism as a tool in policing debate.

Discussion of Kagome and the Star of David looks like an attempt to present this as evidence that the Hata were hebraic in origin. This is far, far too weak to let go even were citation provided.

As you admit, this (Hata=Hebrew) idea is a minority opinion. Given that, it is more appropriate to secondary entries or sub-articles rather than in the primary encyclopaedic entry (you'll notice I didn't remove it from elsewhere in the article).