Talk:Kim Dotcom/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Kim Dotcom. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

infamous hacker

How do you get an infamous hacker, when you personally never hacked anything? --195.14.198.75 07:26, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

"biased links"

No comments of links in text, please. Either the links are in the article or not. --195.14.198.75 07:26, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

sorry. it's just that somebody deleted the links, I put them back in and thought since the other guy must have reasons to remove them, I put kind of a "warning sign" on them. (clem 08:16, 22 May 2005 (UTC))

TheRegister has a "bad mouth", but it is one of the most reliable sources on the topic. But one article is enough. --195.14.198.75 09:33, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

"just for fun"

Who said "just for fun"? Nobody? Why are there citation marks? --195.14.198.75 07:26, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

interesting sources

Kim Schmitz is deleting facts

User:69.57.152.12 aka Kim Schmitz has deleted some facts several times. --195.14.254.210 12:46, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Does Trendax use AI at all?

Does Trendax use artificial intelligence? Does Trenday even exist? The website has not been updated for two years, and back then Kimble himself said, Trendax would not work.

Read the disclaimer on the site:

Important Notice:

The automated trading system of Trendax Limited is not available to retail clients.

Fund products are not currently available, and will not be marketed until such time that appropriate licenses are obtained.

Our offer to invest in Trendax Limited is not available to investors in Hong Kong.

Thank you for visiting our website.

What does this mean? Have a look at this thread - trendax.com could have been made up the same way. The web designers put some shiny buzzwords on the screen - and that's all. There is no operating business, only a website. --145.254.137.107 19:58, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Schmitz declares "Wikipedia War"

http://board.ultimaterally.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1467

That was all they got? Pretty lame... --81.173.131.108 11:00, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Kims future

I beliefe that the Trendax project and all other ideas he had where not finished or even realized at all because of a lack of knowledge and professionalism. He has an idea, just starts without thinking too much and afterwards he gets caught by the reality. This may also happen to the Ultimate Rally. He started with a great idea, but underestimates the effort, the experience and the structure that is needed in order to successfully realize such a project.

I am not sure whether he is a good team player. If he is one, he would need somebody who's doing all the project management for him. He's quite good in marketing and has enough courage to start with innovative ideas.

In Germany he did a lot of gratuitous bullshit, like annoucing his suicide or failing with the help for "Let's buy it". That's why many Germans don't like him. On the international stage he's still unknown and has the possibility to create a positive image. If he succeeds with his Ulitmate Rally he could make it. If he fails again, he'll be probably out forever, I guess.

my thoughts

this guy is clearly a pussy, and i don't use the word lightly. why is his face featured in such an un-wikipedia-like way? on one hand it offends me as a poorly presented article, on the other hand, the haphazard, lackadaisical layout strikes me as appropriate for such a bum-of-the-internet. let him continue to flaunt his misguided excesses; his fat ass is a pristine example of money failing to buy everything. everyone reading this article should doubt everything that gurgles forth from his mouth, and rest assured that some doofus selling his own name as a hardly proven investment interest is about as productive as my nocturnal genital rubbings. 69.232.212.173 12:21, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, it looks like that he's out. :-)

NPOV and history

There seem to be a lot of views on this guy. I heard about him for the first time today. Anyway, try to keep your NPOV and skip the derogatory wordings, i.e. "unethical" and "obese". In addition, the article is not in order and does not tell the whole story. Where did he get his money from in the first place? What was the exact hacking activity. What money is he living off now? --86.128.223.127 00:17, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

There are many rumors about his sources of money. Only Kim Schmitz himself could clarify this points - but I probably would not believe a word of it. --81.173.164.95 06:50, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Ultimate Rally "sold"

A message from Kim Schmitz regarding the Ultimate Rally

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=64807&page=3&highlight=kimble

The shareholders of UR have decided to sell the UR business to a US based events company. Its their goal to take our business plan and make it happen in 2007. I am departing the street racing scene for personal reasons.

I am looking back at a 10 year 200mph history and I don't regret a thing. Driving from Munich to Monaco in 4:45 or from Munich to Hamburg in 3:55 are just some of my records which will probably stand forever. Not to mention the 3000 miles of Gumball which I finished fastest twice. I am 32 years old now and after 1 million adrenaline kicks its time to move to bigger things.

Keep an eye out on this website for the new UR in 2007. It should be good. Its likely that this forum is closing soon. It was fun around here and I made a lot of new friends. All the best to all of you.

Kimble, Quake 2 and Barrysworld

Is it worth mentioning that Kimble was quite well known for cheating and disruptive behaviour (camping in almost impossible to reach sections on maps with no time limit) in the UK Quake 2 gaming scene (possibly elsewhere)?

Additionally when I was an admin on the Barrysworld servers and banned him for this behaviour he mounted a semi-successful DDoS attack on the then website www.barrysworld.com, which lasted for about 3 days.

He also set up a moderately successful Quake 2 league called "Liga" (originally at www.liga.net, now appears to be a Russian site). The notable aspect of this is that he once lost a game of Quake 2 against a then-famous player "Immortal", and subsequently accused him of cheating and kicked him and his supporters out of the league. (brief archived paragraph from PlanetQuake (see bottom of page))

Wasn't sure if this information was worth including in the article or not? --Durzel 11:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

only person to have convicted insider trading in Germany

I've just removed the following sentence, as there've been dozens - if not even hundreds - of convictions for insider trading in Germany:
" To date, he remains the only person to ever have been convicted for insider trading in Germany."
For verification see these two cases I found on the quick:
http://www.faz.net/s/RubF3F7C1F630AE4F8D8326AC2A80BDBBDE/Doc~E0C2897FCCC2440D287D68C4FF54934CE~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html
http://www.manager-magazin.de/geld/artikel/0,2828,211598,00.html
--Cvdr 11:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Article Update

The changes that have been incorporated into this entry are done in order to provide a balanced, accurate and current/updated record of Kim.

It is a warts and all overview of his life to date in a format which is easy to read and follow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tturner2009 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Update

This entry does not eliminate any of the colourful facts or criminal background as this pertain to Kim's past.

Please read carefully and you will see this is correct. If not, please let me know.

As a friend of Kim, the purpose of my new entry is to correct misinformation and correct facts.

Haha, I felt slightly amused at the claim that you actually have friends, Kim! ;-) -- 62.245.157.194 (talk) 12:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Tturner2009 —Preceding undated comment was added on 09:58, 25 February 2009 (UTC).

But it is still a WP:POV version of his past. E.g. this is a no-go: "Unfortunately, adverse media attention regarding his past activities meant it was impossible to raise funds to float the company, but Schmitz has since bounced back and is currently active in several Internet businesses while also researching fresh business opportunities." --78.34.4.52 (talk) 16:09, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I would like all editors to kindly read my more balanced, more informative and above all more accurate entry as it pertains to Kim Schmitz. It contains all the facts of the original entry. Therefore anyone who wishes to make changes to the facts needs to clearly explain why? We are not debating writing style. On the facts, I am happy to engage in discussion, to mitigate any concerns Wikipedia editors/visitors may have. Tturner2009 (talk) 06:37, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

"fresh business opportunities" is not a fact. All statements from Kim Schmitz are no facts. You can use thema as long there is a citeable source. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 17:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

A more balanced version

In the last day there was an edit war about the current and a allegedly more balanced version of the article. As you can see on the top of this discussion page the quality of this article is considered to be relatively low, the article could definitely use a new writeup.

But unfortunately the new version is neither more balanced nor better in any way. E.g. let's compare the first paragraph:

Kim Schmitz aka Kimble (born January 21 1974 in Kiel) is a German self-proclaimed hacker and businessman who has generated much publicity and has been convicted of computer fraud, insider trading and embezzlement.

This version is not very nice. E.g. the part about the self-proclaimed hacker - what does this exactly mean? It has definitely a negative connotation.

Kim Schmitz aka Kimble (born January 21 1974 in Kiel) is best known as Germany's first high-profile hacker, although he has long since ceased hacking and become a successful entrepreneur.

This version sounds more balanced, but it is really not. The self-proclaimed was replaced with high-profile, which has a positive connotation - but not any more information than the first version. This version eliminated the version that Kim Schmitz was actually sentenced several times for serious crimes, which is one of few facts about Kim Schmitz that is without any doubt.

The other changes fall in the same category. This is not an improvement at all, it is a version is nicer to Kim Schmitz.

If you want to improve the article, you need first to get some credible sources and then add the facts to the article. If Kim Schmitz Schmitz "admits" anything is the least relevant fact of all - but you can't use it, if you have not an citeable source. A anonymous Wikipedia user with two accounts is no citeable source. If you just want to change the point of view taken in the article - please don't waste your and our time. To create fake accounts is no way to convince the Wikipedia community.--78.34.4.52 (talk) 15:19, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

You are obviously one of the few people from Germany that still hates Kim Schmitz. You're the type that will always continue to put Kim in a bad light. Where are all your sources that defend the old, oudated, and most importantly hateful version? The new version still clearly states that Kim has been concivted ("However, his hacking career came to an end in 1994, when he spent two months in prison before being released pending trial for computer fraud and subsequently convicted four years later."), and it does not leave out any of the old facts. The new version actually adds a lot of new info about Kim (for example about his current life, how he looks at his past etc). That IS called balance, balance that you may question due to the lack of sources, but then where are all the sources of the previous hateful version? Stop the negative focus, it's really not justified. And no, I am not Kim, and no I do not operate multiple accounts. (Alexanderamsterdam (talk) 16:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)).

The sources for the current versions are under references. As I said, your POV is not relevant, facts are. And what you put in the article are no facts, just opionions and rumors. As I already stated, this version is not perfect, but it surely does not qualify as hatefull.

The first paragraph has to summarize the most important facts. The conviction is without any doubt important and without any doubt a fact. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 16:45, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Let's say it plain and simple. If you just deleted self-proclaimed - I never would have had a problem. But you put high prophile in and the allegedly success of Kim Schmitz today. That's the very definition of WP:POV. As long as you insist on put this POV in and revert without any change, other users will revert it back. If you really want to improve the article I would suggest to discuss your changes first and accept contribution of other users. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 22:07, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

As an administrator who has dealt with biographies of living individuals before, I've cleaned the article and removed potentially defamatory information that was unsourced. I've left the subsection "Early Career" unsourced with the hope that someone can find citations; it contains no defamatory or potentially defamatory material. In addition, I've restored two subheadings, albeit with some snipping, from this version that were sourced with reliable citations. It is important to note that if content is introduced on a living individual (or any individual) that can be negatively looked upon, it is all but required to provide a reliable source. If not, it stands to be removed immediately without question or delay.

That said, the article shouldn't be all rosy and patronizing. The version that some had restored to contained zero citations. Remember that edit warring is never conductive and can lead to a full-protection on a BLP. seicer | talk | contribs 00:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This is a more radical approach than I had in mind. Thx for intervening. Now we need some people who help to rebuild the part about his lifestyle and the story of data protect. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 01:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

can we use this source?

Many details about the early career of Kim Schmitz can be found in an court document that had been spread in the internet. For example here here. Can we use any of this?

--78.34.4.52 (talk) 07:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

new edit war

After reading through your comments above, you have objected on the high profile and self-proclaimed hacker terms. is there any other material which you do not agree with? We can work together to make this article more accurate and I am willing to co-operate so we can agree to a final version. Lets talk on the talk page first before changing this. thanks.Tturner2009 (talk) 00:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I have problems with nearly everything you added. I can give some examples:

The hacking community was also infuriated by his habit of making the latest hacking developments public, with his publication of technical details on phone phreaking earning him top spots on the “Most Hated Person” charts in the Worldcharts diskmag for several years.

That is truely an amazing version of the story. If you read these discmags the title "most hated person" came from rumors that Kim Schmitz had denunciated many members of the BBS scene. Since this version is not citeable neither should be in the article.

Unfortunately, adverse media attention regarding his past activities meant it was impossible to raise funds to float the company, but Schmitz has since bounced back and is currently active in several Internet businesses while also researching fresh business opportunities.

Can you name several Internet businesses and give a proper source?

His legal team maintained that this was not insider trading as the information did not come from anybody else and Schmitz had created the business opportunity himself. “I think the outcome would be different in a court of law today as the Internet bubble had just burst at the time, everyone had lost a lot of money and there was so much media attention that I became the scapegoat,” Schmitz maintained.--78.34.4.52 (talk) 09:10, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Where does this statement come from? Why is that relevant?

Schmitz later conceded he had been young, stupid, naïve and aggressive. “I had no idea about the legal implications of my actions,” he acknowledged. “I hope my mistakes can therefore serve as an example for young entrepreneurs. They should remember one golden rule be careful and always think twice about what you are doing.”

This is a sentence for an autobiography, not an Wikipedia article.

Schmitz, who has also long been a fan of Formula I and organised several big parties for the races in Monaco, now plans to develop a racetrack and is currently scouting potential sites around the world.

Future plans without any details have nothing to do with Wikipedia. He can announce this on his own home page. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 02:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

If you are interested in being constructive you can help to rebuild this article according to Wikipedia guidelines. You want to read Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons and Wikipedia:No_original_research. This means: you cannot use anything that Kim Schmitz told you, you have to rely on documented facts. And nearly nothing you added to the article qualifies as facts. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 09:10, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Reverting your inadequate version is of ridiculous. "References" have actually to reflect the facts you add to the article - not to list arbitrarily some articles you might like. For example: neither of your sources says anything about Schmitz's marriage or his new plans. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 02:27, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Please do not give your judgement. Those references will be from the Media sources. I am not sure why you would want only negative insertions here. Wikipedia rules are being followed as well. And everything in the revised article is reality and based on facts. Tturner2009 (talk) 05:16, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

As you can see, I have absolutely no objections against positive facts at all - in fact I have deleted negative facts and added positive ones. How many times will you edit before you read the guidelines? None of your changes is verifiable, neutral or at least formal correct. Play by the rules or don't play at all.

You asked for specific points, I gave you some of them. Still - you insist on ignoring them. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 08:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

specific complaints?

Since User:Tturner2009 unfortunately seems to ignore every discussion that points out the fundamental flaws of his revised version - we can change the question:

What are the specific complaints about this version, which is Wikipedia:Verifiability well sourced and certainly much less biased than the previous version. Let's hear your points and we can work out a solution which is more acceptable for all. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 12:12, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I understand the page is locked due to excessive edits. I would like to work with all of the parties and come up with a better version with references and facts which is also acceptable to all. What is the next step, we can do this offline or online.--11:26, 20 March 2009 (UTC)Tturner2009 (talk)

It's simple as that. Answer the following questions: why exactly do you think the current version unacceptable for you? Do you understand why your "revised version" is a violation of several fundamental Wikipedia guidelines? Do you understand why you can't revert it again? --78.34.4.52 (talk) 12:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The current version is not well organised while I have put everything in a better organised manner where we can build up the references and facts. I have said earlier as well that if this article is there, we can improve it, but you have removed it several times and no chance to add references or facts as you are removing it quickly. I have also said that all wikipedia policies are followed in the revised version, which you have seen. Please tell me which specific part is violation of wiki policies. Leaving all that behind, lets proceed and talk on how to colloborate to a better version. I am trying to contribute here same as you are doing.--Tturner2009 (talk) 08:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Just saying your version followed Wikipedia guidelines does not make it true. Look at the version history: for every fact I added, I gave a credible source. You on the contrary added dozens of facts and opinions without any verifiable source - and after an edit war you added some sources, that did not reflect any of the claims you added.

Take it one by one. Just write an sentence you want to add and give us a source. If everybody agrees - we can put this sentence - and this sentence alone - to the current version of the article. Or you could take one sentence of this current version and point out what could be improved. If anyone agrees, we can put the improved sentence in the article. --80.187.100.228 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:33, 21 March 2009 (UTC).

I have gone through the both versions and in my opinion both need improvement. the current version which is listed right now also written in batches and no consistency. The reader gets hardly any information about the person.On the other side, tturner version had provided more sequenced writing but lacked the references or sources. I think both parties should come to a conclusion.

But as suggested by 80.187.100.228 to do changes one by one, I don't think that is fair to anyone and specially to wikipedia community who wants to contribute here.--58.181.164.130 (talk) 00:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course you can improve the whole article at once. Unfortunately User:Tturner2009 has made it impossible to edit the article itself for now - but if you have any suggestions you can put them down on the talk page. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 12:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Taking note of the recent editors' comments, I have edited and uploaded a new version of this article with a focus on verifiable facts, 3rd party sources, objective language and a more balanced tone. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.--Tturner2009 (talk) 02:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted your edit.

You have deleted sourced content without an explanation/justification. Examples:
- The fact that the 1998 probationary sentence was also for handling of stolen goods
- The mention of MegaUpload, MegaRotic and MegaVideo
- The mention of YIHAT
You have faked references. Examples:
- For the statement "Schmitz subsequently announced his intention to invest EUR50million in the company, creating the biggest single-day price rise for a share in the history of the German stock market" you cited this article, but no information whatsoever about the effect on the German stock market can be found there. (It also has to be said that the information in that article seems mostly to be based on Kimble's own account, the lack of fact-checking is evident in examples such as the use of "freaking" for "phreaking".)
- For the statement that his 1998 sentence was for hacking into a large number of X25-connected corporate and government computer systems and for abusing international telephone service you cited this article, but that information can't be found there.

These are only a few examples which I found after skimming your version briefly. But I think they already suffice to demonstrate why you should better restrict yourself to incremental edits (as it has already been suggested to you by other users), instead of deleting other users' work entirely in favor of your version.

Also, please do not upload copyright violation to Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commmons.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 03:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, I responded to each in turn.

- Please let me check the reference to 'stolen goods' as I believe there may be a more appropriate English term when translating the German from the Manager Magazin article.
- However, the mention of MegaUpload, MegaRotic and MegaVideo published by Focus Magazine on 15th November 2007 (http://www.focus.de/digital/internet/kim-kimble-schmitz_aid_137699.html) is based on unsubstantiated rumours and states "Bisher ist unklar, wer die Besitzer und Betreiber dieses Megaimperiums sind," which approximately translates as "So far it is unclear who the owners and operators of this mega-empire are." Consequently, I would request that this reference is deleted, in accordance with the Wikipedia rule about the verifiability of material in biographies of living persons.
- There is no problem to add back in the reference to 'YIHAT'.
- A better explanation of the Letsbuyit.com acquisition is provided in the Guardian newspaper http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2001/jan/26/internetnews.business2, which talks about a share price increase for Letsbuyit.com of "220% to 77 cents as a record 87m shares changed hands" and I suggest replacing the Sunday Telegraph article with this reference.
- In the following text, I added a note of explantion for the reader: "In March 1998, Schmitz was sentenced to two years on probation for computer fraud and data falsification for hacking into a large number of X25-connected corporate and government computer systems and for abusing international telephone services.[7]" When considering your comment, I believe that the following shorter version is a better, more accurate alternative: "In March 1998, Schmitz was sentenced to two years on probation for computer fraud and data falsification.[7]"
- Taking into account the recent editorial comment, I will commit to proposing changes on a point by point basis in future.
- Please clarify your exact concern about possible copyright infringement. Scanned copies of several articles have been uploaded because the original link to publication websites is nolonger active. If this is the cause of your concern, we can contact those publications to ask for permission to scan and upload the articles or ask them to reactivate the relevant web links.

To follow up our discussion, would you kindly respond to each of the above points. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tturner2009 (talk • contribs) 10:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Tturner 2009 on this: The rumors about Megavideo don't necessarily belong in an Wikipedia article.

But in all other regards I have to agree with HaeB: Tturner has misrepresented the contents of the sources. It's difficult to assume good faith if someone does that so vigorously.

Please remain a structure that enables an constructive discussion - e.g. begin a new section on a talk page for discussion of improvements. And please give reasons why a specific change would be an improvement to the current version of the article. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 06:12, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

discussion improvements

At the recommendation of --78.34.4.52 (talk), I have opened this page to discuss changes in a open-handed way with a view to improving the current Wikipedia profile for Kim Schmitz.

My main goal in offering recent amendments was to improve the current version by telling a clearer, chronological story and to remove any unproven points. I also wanted to add further English newspaper references, as this article is featured in the English version of Wikipedia.

With a view to taking these ideas further, I will propose changes separately for each section of the content.

Existing Paragraph

Kim Schmitz aka Kimble (born January 21 1974 in Kiel) is best known as a German computer hacker and business man, who had generated much publicity and was convicted of computer fraud, insider trading and embezzlement.

Proposed Paragraph

Kim Schmitz aka Kimble (born January 21 1974 in Kiel) is a German computer hacker and business man, who has generated much publicity through his hacking activities, extravagant lifestyle and involvement in various businesses. Schmitz is a controversial figure in his homeland, where he has been convicted of computer fraud, insider trading and embezzlement. In each case he received a non-custodial, probationary sentence and a fine.

Explanation

I understand that the first paragraph of a Wikipedia profile is intended as a summary, so I have proposed adding additional information to complete the picture of Kim Schmitz life to date. Additional information is shown in quotation marks as follows:

Point 1 - Added the phrase "through his hacking activities extravagent lifestyle and involvement in various business ventures" to explain how Schmitz generated publicity.

Point 2 - Added the sentence "In each case he received a non-custodial, probationary sentence and fine." to clarify the nature of each sentence.--Tturner2009 (talk) 07:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for putting your suggestion here first (at last).

I have no severe objections to this suggestion, but I would drop the last sentence, because it's wrong or at least misleading. The probationary sentences were not non-custodial. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 08:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Early Career

Thanks for your swift response. I agree with your comments. Please find below recommendations for the next section.

Existing Paragraph

In the late 90s Schmitz gained publicity through his several high profile break-in claims.^[1]. He was part of the German BBS scene and had his own BBS called "House of Coolness".

In 1998 Schmitz was sentenced to a probationary sentence of two years for computer fraud and handling with stolen goods^[2]. According to a report by News & Record he had traded with stolen calling card numbers he bought from hackers in the United States^[3].

Proposed Paragraph

Paragraph 1 - New introduction to Schmitz' career adding extra information

In his early teens, Schmitz moved from playing computer games to cracking them and selling copies to his classmates.[1] He started sourcing new computer games in the United States and used blue-box phreaking to gain unauthorized access to international PBX systems resulting in unlimited free phone access.[2]

Paragraph 2 - Builds on existing paragraph 1 with additional details

A school drop out at 17, Schmitz started computer hacking[1] and became part of the German Bulletin Board System (BBS) scene with his own House of Coolness BBS[citation needed] that targeted organizations like public utility companies and banks. His out-spoken and flamboyant style attracted a hostile response[1] from the German hacking community and earned him top spot as "Most Hated Person" in the Worldcharts diskmag for several years[citation needed]. In the late 90's, Schmitz also gained notoriety for claims that he hacked into the computer systems of organizations like NASA, Citibank and the Pentagon.[3]

Paragraph 3 - shortened version of existing Lifestyle section, paragraph 2

A number of publicity stunts have been atttributed to Schmitz including a reward of up to US$10 million offered for information leading to the arrest of Osama bin Laden[4]. He also founded the vigilante group YIHAT that allegedly found money transfers made by terrorists, had its website defaced and the group later disbanded[5].

Paragraph 4 - shortened version of existing paragraph 2

In 1998 Schmitz was sentenced to a probationary sentence of two years for computer fraud, data falsification[6] and handling stolen goods[citation needed]. According to a newspaper report, it is alleged that he traded stolen US calling card access numbers[7].

Explanation

The existing two paragraphs covering Schmitz's Early Career are short and provide a limited amount of information. The proposed additional material explains his development in a chronological order from cracking computer games to downloading games from the US, and computer hacking. I have used most of the existing material, with the proposed paragraph 2 contains all the key facts from the existing paragraph 1.

In paragraph 3, I have kept the major points and deleted some detail that is covered in the reference articles.

In paragraph 4, I propose deleting 'handling stolen goods' (although I have not done so yet) because I cannot find a reference to this in the Zugriff in Bangkok article in Manager Magazin (the magazine focuses on an issue with Schmitz's credit card seems to have mistakenly included the title 'Dr').--Tturner2009 (talk) 03:22, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't agree to any of that.

Paragraph 1 - I don't see any point in telling a story of young Kim Schmitz commiting crimes he was never indicted for. The sources are fluff pieces, that only repeat hin juvenile claims of hacker greatness. The relevance is low, the problems with verifiability are high (See paragraph 3).

Paragraph 2 - As mentioned above: the title "Most Hated Person" has not much to do with his "flamboyant style" but very much with rumors that he was a snitch, who gave information about many BBS to the police. I think limited information is better than probably false claims on both sides.

Paragraph 3 - "A number of publicity stunts have been atttributed to Schmitz" - This sounds like he was wrongly cited. But I think there is not a shadow of a doubt that he actually did these publicity stunts?

Normally I would agree to shorten this paragraph significantly. But I think some of the details you deleted are important. Schmitz did start his Obama hunt in a very, very public manner und was proven wrong: he did not have the money, his often claimed hacker skills were publiblicly ridiculed by Fluffy Bunny and Schmitz tried to get out of the desaster by blatantly lying to the press about his relation to Fluffy Bunny.

Perhaps you want to add another publicity stunt like the Munich airport episode or his jokes about going to the moon?

Paragraph 4: I strongly recommend you to read the article from Manager Magazine again. The author quotes the criminal record of Schmitz: "gewerbsmäßige Bandenhehlerei in zwei Fällen, davon in einem Fall in Tateinheit mit vier Fällen der Fälschung beweiserheblicher Daten, im anderen Fall in Tateinheit mit acht Fällen der Fälschung beweiserheblicher Daten". Manager Magazine is not the only source, News & Record cites another criminal file with the same charges. The article does not focus on title abuse, it's at the end of the article. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 07:20, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed feedback. My comments are shown below.

Early Career - revised proposal

In his early teens, Schmitz moved from playing computer games to cracking them and selling copies to his classmates[1] . He obtained new calling card numbers from the United States, providing users with unlimited free phone access[2].

A school drop out at 17, Schmitz started computer hacking and became part of the German BBS scene where he had his own BBS called "House of Coolness," that targeted organizations like public utility companies and banks. In the late 90's, Schmitz also gained notoriety for claims that he hacked into the computer systems of organizations like NASA, Citibank and the Pentagon.[3]

In September 2001, he gained attention in several technical publications for offering a reward of up to US$10 million for information leading to the arrest of Osama bin Laden[4]. Later he founded the vigilante group YIHAT that allegedly found money transfers made by terrorists. Shortly afterwards the group's website kill.net was defaced and the group eventually disbanded[5].

In 1998 Schmitz was given a probationary sentence of two years for computer fraud, data falsification and handling stolen goods[6]. According to newspaper reports, he traded stolen US calling card numbers.

Explanation

Paragraph 1

I propose retaining the first sentence because it provides explanatory background information, improves the chronological sequence, and helps to raise the overall quality of this profile. I do not believe that this phrase can realistically be claimed to reinforce any 'juvenile claim to hacker greatness,' as you suggest. The second sentence has been shortened so that it just relates to the Manager Magazin article which you have quoted in your last remarks.

Paragraph 2

I agree with your suggestion to take out the sentence referring to 'his flamboyant style" and Most Hated Person" award. However I suggest retaining the introduction to the first sentence for the same reasons as outlined in my comments about Paragraph 1 . So Paragraph 2 could start "A school drop out at 17..." (although I have not seen Schmitz' school records, I don't see any reason to doubt this claim). Alternatively, if you prefer, we could say "At 17 he moved to Munich with his divorced mother..."

I have retained the reference to 'claims' of hacking into organizations like NASA, Citibank and the Pentagon, that are mentioned by respectable publications such as the Los Angeles Times and Forbes.

Paragraph 3

While there is no reason to think that these activities did not take place, they were reported only in the technical trade publications and not in the mainstream media and their significance should not be over-stated.

Paragraph 4

I have checked the translation of the Manager Magazin article again and agree with your comments. Until now, I have not been able to locate the News & Record article and propose to delete this reference (which in any case, I believe to be covered by the Manager Magazin story). If you have a scanned copy of the News and Record article, would you kindly activate the the link to the reference on the existing Wikipedia version? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tturner2009 (talk • contribs) 03:25, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd prefer to restrict private details to a minimum. There are too many false statements about Schmitz's life in the press and there are too many false claims from Schmitz himself. If you want to write about this episode, you should write about the alleged donation to Greenpeace. This was the only one that was verifiable - or rather: not verifiable.

You can find the News and Record article in a good press database like Lexisnexis. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 21:04, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Data Protect

Please find below proposed changes to the section on Data Protect:

Existing paragraphs

In 1994 Schmitz founded a computer security company called DataProtect.[4] In 1999 DataProtect and IVM engineering presented the "Megacar", a version of a Daimler Benz which combined 16 GSM modules to provide mobile broadband internet access[5].

In 2000 Schmitz sold 80 percent of the shares of DataProtect to "TÜV Rheinland".[6] In 2001 TÜV Data Protect went bankrupt.[7]

Proposed paragraphs

In 1994 Schmitz founded a computer security company called Data Protect which tested organisations’ vulnerability to hackers by analyzing their networks using hacker methodology[1].

His reputation as a hacker attracted a number of corporate customers including Lufthansa[1] and in 2000 he sold 80% of the Data Protect business to the German government non-profit certification organization TUV Rheinland,[8] becoming a subsidiary of TUV SecureIT in 2001. In 2001 TÜV Data Protect went bankrupt[9 - further citation needed].

Explanation

The existing version provides limited information about Data Protect's main business and how it developed prior to the company's sale to TUV Rheinland. The proposed version is modified to provide a more complete picture. The existing Paragraph 1 about "Megacar" has been moved to the Other Business section.

Paragraph 2 - Since Data Protect became a 'subsidiary of TUV Secure IT' according to Handelsblatt, I don't understand how this subsidiary could go into bankruptcy while under the control of TUV. The English translation of the ZD Net story is not clear on this point. Any clarification would be welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tturner2009 (talk • contribs) 15:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree to extend the description of the business model of DataProtect. But we can't speculate about the motives of Lufthansa.--78.34.4.52 (talk) 21:04, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Other Business Activities

Thanks for your concise and reasonable comments. Please find below the next section of the profile:

'Other Business Activities' (replaces 'Insider Trading and Embezzlement')

Existing Paragraphs

Insider trading and embezzlement

In 2001, Schmitz purchased $375,000 worth of shares of the nearly bankrupt company LetsBuyIt.com and subsequently announced his intention of investing EUR 50 million in the company.[11] Unknown to others, Schmitz did not have the funds available for purchase, although the announcement caused the largest single-day rise of a share price in the history of the DAX.[citation needed] Schmitz quickly sold the shares and profited $1.5 million as a result.[11]

Schmitz had also arranged and obtained an unsecured loan of EUR 280,000 from Monkey AG, a company that Schmitz had served as Chairman of the Board. The funds were to be paid to Kimvestor AG. As a result, both Monkey and Kimvestor went bankrupt.[12]

In January 2002, Schmitz was arrested in Bangkok, Thailand, deported to Germany, and sentenced to a probationary sentence of one year and eight months, and a EUR 100,000 fine, the largest insider-trading case in Germany at the time.[13] Schmitz also pleaded guilty to embezzlement in November 2003 and received a two-year probation sentence.[14]

Proposed Paragraphs

New Title

Other Business Activities

Paragraph 1 - slight modifications to existing Paragraph 1 including insertion of reference [3] from the Guardian newspaper

In 2000 Schmitz bought US$375,000 worth of shares in LetsBuyIt.com, which was almost bankrupt and in moratorium,[10] seeing potential in the company's business model to negotiate big discounts with manufacturers and suppliers. Schmitz subsequently announced his intention to invest EUR50 million in Letsbuyit.com, leading to a significant share price increase as a record 87m shares changed hands[3] and he reaped a profit of US$1.5 million.

Paragraph 2 - slight modifications to existing Paragraph 2

Schmitz also arranged an unsecured loan of EUR 280,000 from Monkey AG, where he was chairman of the board, to be paid to his investment company Kimvestor AG in 2001. As a result, both Monkey and Kimvestor went bankrupt[11].

Paragraph 3 - slight modifications to existing Paragraph 3, including Schmitz defence against insider trading charge

In January 2002, Schmitz was arrested in Bangkok, Thailand and deported to Germany where he was given a probationary sentence of 20 months and a EUR100,000 fine[6][10][12] despite the claims of his legal team that the LetsBuyIt.com deal was not a case of insider trading because the information did not come from another party and that Schmitz had simply decided to sell the shares once they were out of moratorium. Schmitz pleaded guilty to embezzlement in connection with the Monkey AG loan in November 2003 and received a probationary sentence of two years[13].

Explanation

The Proposed Paragraphs are intended to improve the chronology and clarity of the main part of Schmitz's career after Data Protect.--Tturner2009 (talk) 05:18, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

New title - no way. Business activities don't include criminal sentences.

Paragraph 1: It's a good idea to give some numbers. But you missed the most important part: why he was convicted. He did not have the 50 million and he - according to his own statement - has conspired to manipulate the stock prices of a failing business.

Paragraph 2: No objection on the first glance.

Paragraph 3: You can't use that at all. What a "legal team" says before a trial is simply not relevant. He was sentenced and did not appeal. In Germany there is no such thing like pleading guilty. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 06:42, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

All in all: you have some ideas here but this all together is a incorrect and misleading narration of the facts. No. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 06:42, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Lifestyle

Thanks for your comments. Please find below the next section of text:

Existing Paragraphs

With his lavish lifestyle Schmitz became the subject of the yellow press. On his own website kimble.org Schmitz published hundreds of photos and videos of his luxury trips. [8]

Schmitz was especially famous for his publicity stunts. In September 2001 he offered a reward of up to $10 million for information leading to the arrest of Osama bin Laden[9]. Later he founded the vigilante group YIHAT who allegedly had found money transfers of terrorists. But shortly after the website kill.net was defaced by the notorious hacker called Fluffy Bunny ,the group disbanded eventually. [10]

Proposed paragraphs

Paragraph 1 - same as existing paragraph 1, with additional reference to Monaco Grand Prix

Schmitz' extravagant and publicity-seeking lifestyle is reflected in the many photos and videos available on the Internet.[4] He has long been a fan of Formula One and has organised several big parties for the races in Monaco.[17][18]

Paragraph 2 - same as existing Other Activities, paragraph 1

He was also active in the street racing scene and participated in the Gumball Rally several times, finishing first in the six-day, 3,000-mile event in 2001 and 2004.[19]

Explanation

The Lifestyle section is now narrower in focus with Internet-related stories moved elsewhere. Note: existing Paragraph 2 for Lifestyle - moved to Early Career, paragraph 3 --Tturner2009 (talk) 04:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I have no objection re-arrange the two paragraphs, but the wording needs significant improvements. For example how do you finish "an event" first? Either Gumball is an illegal street rally or it is an lifestyle motorcade without any winner. You have to chose. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 05:17, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Other Activities

Thanks for your quick response. Please find below the final section of the profile:

Existing Paragraphs

In 2001 Schmitz finished first in the Gumball 3000 rally, a 5000km car race taking place on public roads.[15]

Since 2001, Schmitz has had media coverage as a founder of a Hong Kong based investing company called Trendax. The company claimed to use AI to maximize investment return, and Schmitz tried to find investors for a hedge fund managed by the company.[16] According to media reports Schmitz had never the proper licence to start the fund. [17]

The German newsmagazine Focus collected several pieces of evidence linking Schmitz to ownership of the Hong Kong based websites MegaUpload, MegaRotic and MegaVideo. The sites' spokesman denied any connection.[18]

Proposed paragraphs

Paragraph 1 - same as existing Data Protect, paragraph 1

Schmitz displayed a Mercedes S-Class equipped with a 16-channel GSM multiplexer for in-car Internet access and video conferencing at CeBIT 1999 in Hannover.[15] IVM Automotive in Munich retains 50 percent of the Megacar concept.[16]

Paragraph 4 - similar to existing Other Activities, paragraph 2

Schmitz moved to Sydney, Dubai and Hong Kong, while developing the Trendax fund trading software which is claimed to utilise artificial intelligence to maximize investment returns. According to a media report Schmitz did not have the proper licence to start the fund[14].

Explanation

Existing Paragraph 1 - moved to Lifestyle section, paragraph 2

Existing Paragraph 2 - moved to Other Business Activities, paragraph 4

Existing Paragraph 3 - deleted because source article lacks verifiability (as discussed 3-5th April on this page)--Tturner2009 (talk) 06:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Combined Version

Here is a combined version of all the profile sections, taking into account compromise agreements on the various points discussed in recent postings:

WIKIPEDIA ENTRY - KIM SCHMITZ

Kim Schmitz aka Kimble (born January 21, 1974 in Kiel) is a German computer hacker and business man, who has generated much publicity through his hacking activities, extravagant lifestyle and involvement in various businesses. Schmitz is a controversial figure in his homeland, where he has been convicted of computer fraud, insider trading and embezzlement.

Early Career

In 1998 Schmitz was given a probationary sentence of two years for computer fraud, data falsification and handling stolen goods[4]. According to newspaper reports, he traded stolen US calling card numbers.

In September 2001, he gained attention in several technical publications for offering a reward of up to US$10 million for information leading to the arrest of Osama bin Laden[5]. Later he founded the vigilante group YIHAT that allegedly found money transfers made by terrorists. Shortly afterwards the group's website kill.net was defaced and the group eventually disbanded[6].

Data Protect

In 1994 Schmitz founded a computer security company called Data Protect which tested organisations’ vulnerability to hackers by analyzing their networks using hacker methodology[1].

The business attracted a number of corporate customers including Lufthansa[1] and in 2000 he sold 80% of the Data Protect business to the German government non-profit certification organization TUV Rheinland,[7] becoming a subsidiary of TUV SecureIT in 2001. In 2001 TÜV Data Protect went bankrupt[8].

Let's Buy It and Monkey.com

In 2000 Schmitz bought US$375,000 worth of shares in LetsBuyIt.com, which was almost bankrupt and in moratorium,[9] seeing potential in the company's business model to negotiate big discounts with manufacturers and suppliers. Schmitz subsequently announced his intention to invest EUR50 million in Letsbuyit.com, leading to a significant share price increase as a record 87m shares changed hands[3] and he reaped a profit of US$1.5 million.

In January 2002, Schmitz was arrested in Bangkok, Thailand and deported to Germany where he was given a probationary sentence of 20 months and a EUR100,000 fine[5][9][11]. Schmitz pleaded guilty to embezzlement in connection with the Monkey AG loan in November 2003 and received a probationary sentence of two years[12].

Other Business Activities

Schmitz displayed a Mercedes S-Class equipped with a 16-channel GSM multiplexer for in-car Internet access and video conferencing at CeBIT 1999 in Hannover.[13] IVM Automotive in Munich retains 50 percent of the Megacar concept.[14]

Lifestyle

Schmitz' extravagant and publicity-seeking lifestyle is reflected in the many photos and videos available on the Internet.[3] He has long been a fan of Formula One and has organised several big parties for the races in Monaco.[16][17]

A love of fast cars led to participation several times in the Gumball Rally, and Schmitz was the fastest finisher in the six-day, 3,000-mile event in 2001 and 2004.[19]

Explanation of main points:

Introduction - last sentence has been removed, as requested (in any case, this information is covered in a later section)

Early Career - I believe that Kim Schmitz private details that do not carry a citation are kept to a minimum

Data Protect - I have removed speculation on the motives of Lufthansa in signing up for Data Protect services

Let's Buy It and Monkey.com - Since the focus is on a chronological description of Kim Schmitz career, this heading is preferable to the existing one and, in any case, details of court cases are handled in the description. I have not included reference to a claim that 'he did not have the 50 million and he - according to his own statement - has conspired to manipulate the stock prices of a failing business', as I have not seen a reference to this effect. The reference to Megaupload is deleted because the source article lacks verifiability.

Lifestyle - It seems that the Gumball Rally has recently changed its focus away from the fastest drivers due to the recent fatal accident. However, this does not discount the fact that Kim Schmitz was the fastest finisher on two occasions. I have modified the text accordingly.--Tturner2009 (talk) 10:25, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately I have not much time right now, I will comment later. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 14:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Appreciate that you are busy. Is it possible for you to give a schedule when you can give comments. --Tturner2009 (talk) 10:42, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Having seen no further comment, I anticipate no strong objections to the revised profile and now propose to upload this version to the main Article page on Thursday 30th April. --Tturner2009 (talk) 11:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I see I've been invited to this discussion on my talk page because my name was on WP:EA. I'm a bit less active here and busier now than I used to be, so I'm afraid that I won't have time to seriously study this issue and get involved. However, I would advise going to WP:Third opinion and posting a request for comment there, which will attract a much larger audience for your discussion, and allow you to come to a conclusion more easily. tempodivalse [☎] 13:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Like Tempdivalse I was asked to comment here at my talk page; like him I am quite busy at the moment and can't really spare the time that it looks like this might take, sorry. I suggest WP:Third opinion or WP:Requests for comment might be useful. Good luck! Olaf Davis (talk) 18:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I just had a short look at the combined version. It does not reflect that what we have talked before and it has several other flaws. Just a few:

Early Career - you chose to ignore some of my objections about reducing private details. I had not the time to comment every sentence, but "providing users with unlimited free phone access[2]." is surely a no-go. He sold stolen access codes, there was nothing "for free". How could a BBS "target organizations like public utility companies and banks"?

"in several technical publications" - wrong.The very prominent Fluffi Bunny episode is missing. Even the Harald Schmidt show - a very very non technical late night show covered this.

"seeing potential in the company's business model to negotiate big discounts with manufacturers and suppliers" - speculation, the judge did not buy this version, so we shouldn't do it either.

"Schmitz pleaded guilty" - as mentioned before: pleading guilty is not possible in Germany.

Schmitz moved to Sydney, Dubai and Hong Kong, while developing the Trendax fund trading software - Schmitz was never a programmer, there was never a Tendax fund trading software. What Schmitz did: he searched for investors. Where he actually lived is beyond our knowledge.

"A love of fast cars led to participation several times in the Gumball Rally", speculation, POV.

--20:51, 28 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.34.4.52 (talk)

As previously explained, private details in this profile are minimal and are cited in several international media articles. Your note about 'unlimited free phone access' is un-necessarily pediantic - it is widely recognized that stolen card numbers were used to obtain free phone access. Why should it not be the case here?

Fluffi Bunny is a pseudonym and we know the true identity of the individual responsible for these claimed actions - I proposed a general comment on this topic. It hardly seems worth making an issue of this point.

I don't have access to the full court transcript and unfortunately cannot comment. Any material that verifies your point should be provided in the discussion page for contributors to see..

The fact that Schmitz was working on the launch of Trendax in Hong Kong is acknowledged in several media reports, as I believe you are aware. He also spent time in Sydney and Dubai - and while this is a fact, I cannot prove it because I don't have a copy of Schmitz passport. But I hardly understand why you should object to this statement because it has neither a positive nor negative impact on the profile. It is merely adding explanatory detail.

Your point here is un-necessarily pedantic. Why should participation in the Gumball rally (a proven fact) not be encouraged by "a love of fast cars"? Many people love fast cars, so the motivation to drive fast is hardly a mystery, and certainly Schmitz has talked about his interest in fast cars (and visits to Monaco for the Grand Prix) frequently enough in various videos available online - so you can find your 'proof' on the Internet.

In summary, your comments are disappointingly negative. Given all the work that has been put into producing a compromise profile, I anticipated that we were close to agreement. While I recognize that there are some minor points still to agree, the highly critical outlook that resurfaces in your latest comments makes it seem that you intend to delay indefinitely the upload of a clearer, more detailed profile. Please reconsider your approach and let's work together on a mutually acceptable final version.--Tturner2009 (talk) 10:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Despite my comment above I do have this to say, Tturner: anyone else who responds to your requests for help is more likely to be sympathetic if you assume good faith on the part of those you're disagreeing with. Whether 78.34.4.52's criticisms of your proposal are valid or not (and no matter how understandably frustrating you may find them), I don't see any evidence that (s)he's bringing them up in an attempt to filibuster rather than a genuine desire to improve the article. Olaf Davis (talk) 11:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for my not very warm comments, but I have - as mentioned - not very much time. I still think all of my remarks are valid. Honestly I don't see much sense in this extensive discussion of a version that brings IMHO very little improvement and still contains several severe misunderstandings of facts and Wikipedia policies. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 14:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Revised Version

I have reviewed the text once more and made corresponding modifications:

WIKIPEDIA ENTRY - KIM SCHMITZ

Early Career

Schmitz started computer hacking and became part of the German BBS scene where he had his own BBS called "House of Coolness." In the late 90's, Schmitz also gained notoriety for claims that he hacked into the computer systems of organizations like NASA, Citibank and the Pentagon.[3]

In September 2001, he offered a reward of up to US$10 million for information leading to the arrest of Osama bin Laden[5]. Later he founded the vigilante group YIHAT that allegedly found money transfers made by terrorists. Shortly afterwards the group's website kill.net was defaced and the group eventually disbanded[6].

Data Protect

In 1994 Schmitz founded a computer security company called Data Protect which tested organisations’ vulnerability to hackers by analyzing their networks using hacker methodology[1].

Let's Buy It and Monkey.com

In 2000 Schmitz bought US$375,000 worth of shares in LetsBuyIt.com, which was almost bankrupt and in moratorium[9]. Schmitz subsequently announced his intention to invest EUR50 million in Letsbuyit.com, leading to a significant share price increase as a record 87m shares changed hands[3] and he reaped a profit of US$1.5 million.

In January 2002, Schmitz was arrested in Bangkok, Thailand and deported to Germany where he was given a probationary sentence of 20 months and a EUR100,000 fine[5][9][11]. Schmitz was convicted of embezzlement in connection with the Monkey AG loan in November 2003 and received a probationary sentence of two years[12].

Other Business Activities

He travelled outside Germany while developing the Trendax fund trading software which is claimed to utilise artificial intelligence to maximize investment returns. According to a media report Schmitz did not have the proper licence to start a fund in Hong Kong[15].

Lifestyle

He participated several times in the Gumball Rally and was the fastest finisher in the six-day, 3,000-mile event in 2001 and 2004.[19]

'Explanation of changes:'

Introduction - No change

Early Career - Deleted private information: 'A school drop out at 17'.

Data Protect - No change

Let's Buy It and Monkey.com -

Title makes sense - so no change. In any case, his convictions are covered elsewhere.

Para 1: Deleted 'seeing potential in the company's business model...'

Para 3: Amended text to delete 'pleaded guilty...' at editor's request

Other Business Activities - deleted reference to 'Sydney and Dubai' but left in reference to 'developing Trendax', as this phrase is widely used - not just for programmers

Lifestyle - Deleted: 'A love of fast cars...' --Tturner2009 (talk) 11:24, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

It looks like healthy debate has gone into this discussion. Tturner2009 revised version has addressed a lot of issues as well. In my opinion there looks a genuine desire for improvement and I do not now see any major objections from both sides. I think other editors who contributed to Kim's profile should provide their comments as well. Tturner2009 on his part, should implement the agreed changes first. --58.181.164.130 (talk) 01:15, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Third opinion: First, when you do proposed changes like this, it's better to do them in sandbox articles under your username - something like User:Tturner2009/Kim Schmitz. That way you can build up the entire article and see how it would look, rather than having to jam it onto the talk page like this. Second, I don't like the lead in this new version. You can't make claims like "extravagant lifestyle" and "a controversial figure in his homeland" without sources stating exactly that; to do so is pushing a point of view. The rest of what you've written is sort of okay, I guess, but I don't really see why the current article needs a full rewrite. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 02:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for providing a Third Opinion, your constructive comments are very welcome. My comments are as follows:

- Use of sandbox: noted to facilitate future editorial projects

- The story lead reference to 'extravagant lifestyle' relates very closely to a point in the existing profile, where Kim is said to have a 'lavish lifestyle' and enjoyed 'luxury trips' under the Lifestyle section. Many of the existing references support this and, I believe, there is also ample evidence of him being a 'controversial figure in his homeland' both in the existing German media references, and other stories published in highly respectable international media like the Los Angeles Times story http://articles.latimes.com/2001/feb/18/news/mn-27176, which I am proposing to add to the reference list. Taking these points into account, I don't believe that I am 'pushing a point of view', but rather making a point supported by adequate evidence.

- My goal in this project is to develop a clear, fair and chronological profile of Kim. The current profile is only rated 'Start-Class' on the Wikipedia scale, so there is evident room for improvement. Hopefully my contribution will help in this regard. In particular, there are points of concern in the existing version, such as the unsubstantiated rumour about MegaUpload in the Focus Magazine article (my comment of April 3rd), which has already been acknowledged by 78.34.4.52. --Tturner2009 (talk) 10:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

The MegaUpload problem is fixed now. Any more improvements? --78.34.4.52 (talk) 19:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your follow up. To see the 'other improvements' mentioned, you can simply refer to my updated profile entry on the discussion page of May 4th. I look forward to your detailed comments. --Tturner2009 (talk) 22:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't see any improvement there. Since you can't point out any substantial flaws of the current version, there is simply no need for a rewrite. --78.34.4.52 (talk) 18:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Page break

Okay, so... where do we stand on this right now. I'll state upfront that I can't really follow the edits that Tturner2009 is proposing; it's so much "change x to y" that it's getting lost on me. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:57, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

new rumors

u really want to use that article as a source? "A source who wishes to remain anonymous said" come on. thats just a buzz. thats nothing to remain on wikipedia. ps: sry for the edits (im a wiki-noob) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.204.5.27 (talk) 14:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Untitled

Kim Schmitz is a convicted fraud - how about lessing out his claims and writing about the facts?

He has a criminal record for fraud and imposture in Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.131.74.239 (talk) 12:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

judging from the articles I read about Schmitz he rarely (never?) actually hacked anything important, he merely enjoys creating a hype/buzz around him to get investor money. (clem 23:24, 7 May 2005 (UTC))

Yes, you are right. See http://www.aquanuke.co.uk/article289.html Only the airport story seems to be true, but every TV team who tried the same in the nineties had success, so it is not a really big deal. --195.14.254.168 06:29, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

This article seems a bit harsh to me; currently Kim's described as a 'computer criminal', apparently for using credit cards to get free calls.

Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniack used and sold blue boxes.
Julian Assange was likewise into 'phone phreaking' and taught others how to get free calls.
Kevin Mitnick hacked the transport system to get free bus rides

None of these people are described on wikipedia as a 'computer criminal' but instead as 'hackers'. 118.90.41.93 (talk) 04:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

This article is fabricated. Kim Schmitz never programmed himself, he never hacked. He was never on a school for gifted (Plön). He is a convicted criminal. Please see German version of this article. He had been convicted for Coercion with insult (1997), Insult (1997), Affidavit (1997), Embezzlement (1998); Computer Fraud, Sellout of Trade Secrets, Fencing, Racketeering, Counterfeit, Misuse of Titles (alltogether in 14 cases in 2001, record was deleted)

Kim Tim Jim Vestor

Investigate Magazin issue April 2010 page 26, better accessible with Google cache:

"We haven't been able to find out whether he did it legally or not, but Schmitz reappeared in the Hong Kong records in 2005 with a new name, "Kim Vestor" or, more precisely, "Kim Tim Jim Vestor". Technically, he could present himself as any one of those three Vestors. Investigate's search of official records shows "Kim Tim Jim Vestor" is allegedly a Finnish national, travelling on Finland passport number 16783622, whose residential address was given as "Paljaspaa 6C6" in Turku, Finland."

"Investigate's extensive enquiries in Asia show Kim/Tim/Jim Vestor is the director of: Megamedia Limited -- Megapix Limited -- Megaupload Limited -- Megavideo Limited -- N1 Limited -- Vestor Limited. A Kim Tim Jim Vestoer (Vestor misspelled) is listed in Hong Kong Companies Office records as director of another company, Megarotic Limited, specialising in porn."

From NZ Herald article: "Another Mercedes SUV [owned by Schmitz] with the plate GUILTY is registered to a Kim Tim Jim Vestor."— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.234.153.116 (talk • contribs) 14:37, 7 Jun 2010 (UTC)

Fake shop

I've forgotten the domain name (but there was a Kimble fan forum there too), and it was five to ten years ago, but I distinctly remember one of Kimble's sites having a shop where you could buy his "trademark black-and-white shoes", and other more expensive items like race cars. If you looked at the shop's HTML source code, it was clear that it didn't even keep track of what you chose to buy — it was all a front for gathering credulous buyers' credit card details! 86.185.62.37 (talk) 15:01, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Property Investment in NZ

Here's an article in today's paper about his property investment in NZ. I decided not to work it into the current article as it appears from the discussion in here that many are working on the article. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10731751 Linnah (talk) 18:13, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Conman

I've editied to article to conman instead of businessman to reflect the German article and it got reverted. Either make them both state conman or both businessman. In my opinion he is a conman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.8.63.87 (talk) 20:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

All the things he's been convicted of are detailed. That's more important than whatever label is put on him by some anonymous editor. Barsoomian (talk) 02:04, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Addition of Megaupload song

Something ought to be added about the Megaupload song. Kim appears in the video and is the driving force behind it. See Printz_Board for more info. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.82.100.8 (talk) 15:53, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

If you want to write a passage, including a source, do so here and it can be copied into the article by a confirmed editor. Barsoomian (talk) 16:47, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Kim, Megaupload's founder, was recently involved in the controversy surrounding the Megaupload promotional track, which was taken down via a DMCA noticed filed by UMG^[4]^[5]^[6]. Kim accused UMG of sending "illegitimate takedown notices", and Megaupload went on to file a lawsuit against UMG^[7]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.82.100.8 (talk) 19:43, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Not sure where the rest of my comment went, so here: I also don't think this article needs to be semi-protected. Without this unnecessary protection an IP user could simply apply this itself. Admins, please remove the protection immediately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.82.100.8 (talk) 19:43, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

If you look at the recent history of the article you will see a continuous stream of vandalism by various anonymous idiots. And not one productive, correct edit among them. I and others were spending a lot of time cleaning up the mess they made, over and over. It takes two minutes to get an account to edit Wikipedia. I recommend you so so and you can then stand up for your own edits. Barsoomian (talk) 02:43, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I do see that. Thanks for making the edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.82.100.8 (talk) 02:19, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

January 2012 neutrality tagging

At the moment, there does not seem to be much wrong with the article. Is there anything specific, or this may be removed per WP:DRIVEBY.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:40, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

BBS activity?

It's not very well documented but there's apocryphal evidence that Kimble sold out several BBS owners to the German police around '94: [1] [2] [3] // Gargaj (talk) 15:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

German language article: [4] // Gargaj (talk) 16:02, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Another one: [5] // Gargaj (talk) 16:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

THe first 3 are not RS. The second two may be but I can't really comment since I don't speak German. Nil Einne (talk) 14:55, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Changing name to Kim Dotcom

This individual appears to now be legally known as Kim Dotcom, as in [6], so I have moved the page accordingly. I am not sure what the policy is on referring to his actions during time periods in which he was known as Kim Schmitz. If I am wrong about this, please revert. CapitalSasha ~ talk 01:37, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Just because Schmitz publicly states that he owns Finnish citizenship does not mean that he really does. There has not been any proof so far that he holds Finnish citizenship. He is well known for not speaking the truth for years, neither to press nor to officials. Germany practically does not permit dual citizenship to her citizens. Also, German authorities do rarely grant a legal name change at all and would never permit a name change to 'Dotcom' for reasons of ridiculousness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.131.69.146 (talk) 11:17, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree. the name of the article should not have been changed, depending on one nytimes article. i highly doubt that his official surname is dotcom! --Infestor (talk) 15:03, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Please revert.--Oneiros (talk) 13:16, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I've made the move, and I've been reverted per WP:commonname. First of all, regardless of where the article is located, we should not give the impression that Kim Dotcom is his real name (Just like his real name never was Kim Tim Jim Vestor). I disagree with the move, since Kim Schmitz has been known for many, many years as Kim Schmitz, and only the recent Megaupload arrests made him known as Kim Dotcom. The latter got a lot of media attention, though, so now we have more Google news results for Kim Dotcom than for Kim Schmitz. Moving the article to Kim Dotcom therefore strikes me as a really bad case of WP:RECENTISM. --Conti|✉ 11:30, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Then please revert the latest name change. I'll ask for move protection--Oneiros (talk) 12:02, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

There needs to be solid sourcing on his current legal name, not WP:OR or speculation as in this edit. This was sourced to [7], and the San Francisco Chronicle and Reuters also say that he has legally changed his name.[8][9]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

It is not at all original research to decide not to use a source, especially if it is as vague as "changed his surname to Dotcom at some point over the last decade", strongly implying that the source itself does not really know when and how (or if) that happened. I happen to be German and know that you can't just change your surname in Germany, and you most definitely can't just change your surname to "Dotcom". Hell, even some sources that we use write "Kim Schmitz, who calls himself Kim Dotcom", so at best we have conflicting information on this. Oh, and here's a source that claims he also legally changed his name to Kim Tim Jim Vestor at some point. The news are not god, they are not perfect. They make mistakes, and we are not obliged to write them down as fact when we have doubts. --Conti|✉ 16:37, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The authorities in New Zealand would have been careful to arrest and charge him under what they believed was his current legal name. The mainstream media sources are adamant that he has changed his name legally to Kim Dotcom.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Do we have any official sources from the New Zealand authorities calling him Kim Dotcom? --Conti|✉ 17:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Even if the New Zealand authorities and the mainstream media have got it wrong, it is stated in reliable sources that he has changed his name legally to Kim Dotcom. The New York Times and Reuters meet the verifiability, not truth test.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and now Wikipedia agrees, and so it will become true regardless of whether it was true before. Again, we do not have to write what the media writes if we happen to know that it is false. Not using sources is not against any of our rules. :) I'm happy to use whatever name the authorities use, though. The only source I could find was this one from justice.gov, but it does not specify whether the used name is an alias or his actual name. --Conti|✉ 17:39, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

This is basically the same as the debate about whether he really has joint German/Finnish nationality. I haven't got a clue, and can only be guided by what the reliable sources say.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

We don't need move protection. We aren't going to edit war the title. That would be a waste of time. Marcus Qwertyus 15:21, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Titleing the article by its commonname does not confer that it is his real name. Obviously Lady Gaga isn't Stefani Germanotta 's real name. Gaga is 25 has been known for her stage name for only seven years. If you brought up Stefani Germanotta in a conversation no one would know who you were talking about except me. WP:Recentism is just an essay anyway and gives reasons for and against recentism. Marcus Qwertyus 15:21, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

You do have a good point, I just disagree with it. We do not know if he will be remembered by this name in the long run. In Germany, for instance, he is still best known as Kimble, while the Kim Tim Jim Vestor name never caught on. I just think we're moving too hastily, that's all. And it's not like the Kim Dotcom name is so dominant in the media that his real name is never used, either, they both have roughly 7000 hits on Google News currently, so the Lady Gaga comparison does not really fit here. --Conti|✉ 16:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Google search result numbers are crap. I am a huge Google fanboy but think it is a huge disservice to Googlers that they put them there without a disclaimer. You have to flip to the end of all the search returns to get the real number. Google tends to exaggerate their search returns by at least tenfold. Marcus Qwertyus 18:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The current version of the WP:LEAD does not say as a fact that his legal name is Kim Dotcom, although the NYT and Reuters have said this. Kim Dotcom appears to be his English language WP:COMMONNAME for the time being.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:34, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the main objection to "Kim Dotcom" is that it's a stupid name. If he'd decided to call himself "Kim Smith", we'd just go along with it. Anyway, most of the world had never heard of him until the recent arrest, and that coverage has heavily favoured "Dotcom", thus it's the "common name", regardless of legality. If he gives that up in a few years, we can change it to whatever, if he's still notable. Barsoomian (talk) 16:00, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The man is neither Lady Gaga nor Marilyn Manson, I'm not sure he really deserve this "not cool" surname as an encyclopedistic reference.Levybros (talk) 10:59, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, he has used at least three different names that other people may consider silly. This seems to be part of his "over the top" persona. The current English language media coverage has, for better or worse, fixed his WP:COMMONNAME as Kim Dotcom. The reliable sources also insist that he changed his name legally to this, which has to be taken on board.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

From my experience he was generally known as Kim Dotcom in the NZ media even before the arrest. Nil Einne (talk) 14:52, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

He's referred to as Kim Dotcom on at least two government websites: Overseas Investment decision summary which is unlikely to use anything but what they believed to be his legal name and this National police newsletter. Additionally (and unfortunately I can't cite) I'm pretty sure I saw him referred to as "Dotcom" by a judge in a a televised bail hearing ... again a judge is unlikely to use a name he didn't believe was the person's legal name. From this I'm fairly sure that the Government, Police & Courts all accept Kim Dotcom as a legal name for him Kiore (talk) 06:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

High School?

It is stated in the info box that he went to high school, while he did infact say that, he actually went to the Heinrich-Harms-Schule in Plön, a "secondary modern school" (the translation leo.org suggested to me). The source for this claim of me is the german Wikipedia page of Kimble, and its source is a newspaper article from 2012 which sadly has gone offline but is still available through Google Cache. 217.50.255.225 (talk) 02:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Kimble flew a huge Finnish flag ontop of his mansion in NZ

Should be taken in account in any discussion of national identity .

He may well have done this, but this CNN article says that he holds a German and Finnish passport. The existing citation in the article was replaced, as it was in Finnish and this is easier to read for English speakers.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

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Weight

Im sorry six foot six and only weighs 130kgs is ludicrous. Can we get an accurate weight or otherwise remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.81.18.30 (talk) 01:12, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

How is this ludicrous? I'm six foot five and I weigh 85 kg. --Nick 78.34.142.61 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:32, 22 April 2012 (UTC).

Modern Warfare 3

It has been has been added several times that Kim Dotcom got a high score in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3. All of the sourcing seems to refer back to this YouTube video, which is not a reliable source.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Since he has a lot of money, and is well known for producing expensive video material about nothing (remember the KimVestor fraud?), he could pay to have a good-looking video made to push any point. The video doesn't prove that he really reached #1 in the game. 86.184.161.224 (talk) 22:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The claim is proven, but he is no longer #1 because of his time in jail. A claim which is true and sometimes referred as ironic (by the source listed) because it was one of the most pirated games. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Despite looking, all of the sourcing still seems to come back to the YouTube video, eg here. This should not go into the article without firmer sourcing.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:12, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

The article should be edited to point out that Kim Dotcom was/is the #1 player in FFA only (Free For All) game mode of Modern Warfare 3. There are several game modes in Modern Warfare 3 and all of them have separate leaderboards and ranking. The article goves the impression that he #1 in the game overall, whereas no such overall ranking exists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.102.144.42 (talk) 01:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

^ "Der Unfassbare", Berliner Morgenpost, Febraury 12th 2001
^ Zugriff in Bangkok, Manager Magazin, January 18th 2002
^ "$ 50 Million Fraud Charges", News & Record, November 1, 1994
^ http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/industry/legal-and-management/megaupload-attorney-speaks-on-universal-1005685252.story
^ http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/dec/13/megaupload-universal-youtube-video
^ http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/gigaom/articles/2011_12_12_universal_vs_megaupload.html
^ http://www.techfirm.com/storage/Complaint-Mega-UMG-FINAL.pdf