Template:Did you know nominations/Charles Wolley-Dod

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 00:40, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Charles Wolley-Dod

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Charles Wolley-Dod

... that Charles Wolley-Dod (pictured) co-piloted Imperial Airways' first planned civilian flight from England to India in 1927? Source: Jan 1927... By air to India, a historic flight....[1][2]
- Reviewed: James Diossa

Created by Whispyhistory (talk). Self-nominated at 20:40, 11 December 2022 (UTC).

Reviewing. jengod (talk) 21:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Length	Newness	Cited hook	Interest	Sources	Neutrality	Plagiarism/paraphrase
✔	✔	✔	✔	✔	✔	✔

I did a light copy edit and added some descriptive phrases for anyone without a British aviation background. Article is all well and good but I do think we're leaving money on the table not mentioning something to the effect of "British crew died on mystery flight over Germany in 1937" because, I mean... Let me know if you can think of anything that would suit otherwise I'll approve with the first flight angle. jengod (talk) 22:42, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

@Jengod:...Thanks for reviewing and adjusting. May be someone else might suggest an ALT. How about

ALT1~~...in 1937, a British crew including Charles Wolley-Dod (pictured) died in a mysterious aircraft accident over Germany?~~
ALT1a~~...in 1937, a British crew including Imperial Airways' Charles Wolley-Dod (pictured) died in a mysterious aircraft accident over Germany?~~ Whispyhistory (talk) 06:03, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

All three are hereby approved but I'm personally a fan of ALT1. Nice work. Thank you for sharing this with us. jengod (talk) 07:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

@Whispyhistory and Jengod: hmm, simply calling it "mysterious" feels a little clickbaity. I think it'd be a bit more in DYK's style if we said what was mysterious about it – namely, that no one knows why the flight went over Germany or why Wolley-Dod was on it. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 09:59, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Okay @Theleekycauldron:... I don't know. Can @Philafrenzy: help here please. Whispyhistory (talk) 09:01, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

ALT2... that a stopped watch found in a German field indicates the likely time of death of Imperial Airway executive Charles Wolley-Dod (pictured) and his colleagues who died when their aircraft crashed in 1937?
ALT3... that in 1937, Charles Wolley-Dod (pictured) and the crew of an Imperial Airways night flight from London died when their aircraft crashed in a German field, just 30 kilometers from their destination?

Not that mysterious is it? I recommend carrying more than one hour of extra fuel for a four-hour night flight - particularly if you feel maps are optional. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:09, 23 December 2022 (UTC) Philafrenzy (talk) 09:25, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Philafrenzy:. Yes you are right. The mystery is not the accident but "why Wolley-Dod, an important figure at Imperial Airways, was on a RAS flight over Germany". [3] Whispyhistory (talk) 10:52, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

They just haven't found the memo asking him to go there for some reason. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:06, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I found the memo it says "World War II is starting soon please go surveil Germany in the middle of the night." (I am no longer even remotely an independent reviewer on this and can go directly to Wikipedia jail. So sorry, mostly to OP!! But I checked

the ALT2/watch is supported by unlocked source. The other source is paywalled
ALT3 source can be accepted in good faith and/or bc Google Maps' measure distance tool confirms that Elsdorf is approx 30km from Cologne.jengod (talk) 18:08, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

"please go surveil Germany in the middle of the night" Interesting, does the memo explain why they didn't take enough fuel for a round trip and why they carried out their surveillance in the dark? Philafrenzy (talk) 22:21, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

What was reported in newspapers may or may not have been what was actually going there but I have a Ph.D in intelligence analysis from watching several movies and if Guy with Military Background and Preternatural Navigation Skillz is on a night flight to Germany for No Apparent Reason with 18 months on the clock until Hostilities Are Legally Declared, we file that under Hmmmmm.... My guess is there is a memo on this somewhere but it's not at Imperial Airways, it's in the vault where they keep the Ark of the Covenant, and/or it's a Footnote on page 672 of some Dusty Report at the back of a Top Secret Agency. I know I am now past original research and deep into fantasy but seriously,

why were there no passengers or mail THAT day?
"Waiting for a weather forecast" to explain why the flight left close to 10pm? Did no other flights leave Croydon or England that night because the country's only weather guy died?
How did not one but two experienced pilots (Wolley-Dod and the actual plane driver) not check their fuel gauge or know how much fuel to take?
How did this guy with an extremely developed navigation skills (that might be useful for aerial operations under cover of darkness) not notice they were wandering off course to the point that they might run through their spare hour of fuel?

Each one separately is sort of reasonable but the totality of them plus the aforementioned rise of the Third Reich adds up to Likely Secret Mission Went Bad. jengod (talk) 23:54, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Reviewing. OK, you have all sucked me in to your history mystery. Cielquiparle (talk) 09:40, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Approving and strongly recommending ALT3 with picture. ALT0 is also approved with picture. Striking ALT1/1a (per above discussion, because "mysterious" is too vague) and ALT2 (overfocuses on a clue; the other hooks tell a bigger story). Nice work everyone! Cielquiparle (talk) 10:01, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Cielquiparle I came by to promote ALT3 with the picture, but I don't see "30 km" in the article. SL93 (talk) 20:35, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the flag SL93! @Philafrenzy, Jengod, and Whispyhistory: D'oh! If we're going with ALT3, then "30 km" can't just be back-of-the-napkin or calculated-using-google-maps, it needs to be in the article. So either "30 km" needs to be added to the article in the appropriate place...or we go with one of the numbers already in the article like the 48 km (30 mi) cited by the Manchester Guardian? (And also...please no citing of secret intelligence stuff from the Hmmmmm files, whatever you cite needs to be Wikipedia-safe.) Cielquiparle (talk) 20:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I also doubt that the Google Groups link can be used as a reference along with the WordPress blog. SL93 (talk) 20:59, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I'll delete Google Groups and past on glass. Hold please on measurements. jengod (talk) 21:46, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Nvm. I think someone got them already? I've got to pick up my kids but then I can fuss. jengod (talk) 21:52, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- OK so we have

* "According to the Bureau of Aircraft Accident Archives, "Descending to Cologne Butzweilerhof Airport the aircraft crashed in unknown circumstances in Elsdorf ( 50.933333°N 6.566667°E), some 42 km [26 mi] northwest of the airport." The BAAA lists the time of the accident as 2320 [local time] and the flight type as "Charter/Taxi (Non Scheduled Revenue Flight)."

* The Manchester Guardian also stated that "two carts later today conveyed coffins" to the scene of the disaster, "several miles from Bergheim" "in a hilly wood, about 30 mi (48 km) from [Cologne]," and that "there was no eye-witness of the crash."[39]

* so 42–48 km (26–30 mi)

* ALT3b... that in 1937, Charles Wolley-Dod (pictured) and the crew of an Imperial Airways night flight from London died when their aircraft crashed in a German field, just over 40 kilometers from their destination?

* LMK if that works and/or if the article would need to further editing jengod (talk) 22:16, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@Jengod: Simple answer is: Can we just cite The Times UK article instead? (You should be able to see it if you are logged into Wikipedia Library, it's via the Times Digital Archives on Gale.) Article says IMPERIAL AIRWAYS LINER CRASHES – THREE PERSONS KILLED – The Imperial Airways four-engined air liner Jupiter, which left Croydon on Monday night for Cologne, crashed early yesterday in a pine wood near Elsdorf, about 20 miles west of Cologne. Seems like an elegant solution...and then we don't have to argue with anyone about whether or not BAAA is an "RS" (not seeing it discussed anywhere in the WP RS archives, and as much as I would like to trust Ronan Hubert...I'm thinking maybe not.) Cielquiparle (talk) 22:42, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Works for me now and it's now in there twice with the Times citation for good measure.

* ALT3c ... that in 1937, Charles Wolley-Dod (pictured) and the crew of an Imperial Airways night flight from London died when their aircraft crashed in a German field, about 20 miles from their destination?

jengod (talk) 22:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

* ALT3d ... that in 1937, Charles Wolley-Dod (pictured) and the crew of an Imperial Airways night flight from London died when their aircraft crashed in a German field, just 20 miles from their destination?

Changing about to just really makes it a lot more dramatic. You can imagine the desperate scenes in the cockpit as the fuel gauge nears empty and they try to calculate their position, just from that one word. I don't think anyone is going to sue us because it might be 19 or 21 miles. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:39, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Approving ALT3d with picture (recommended). ALT0 with picture is also approved. "20 miles" is now clearly cited in the article, and a couple of other extraneous details from iffy sources removed. Cielquiparle (talk) 11:25, 13 January 2023 (UTC)