Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseph G. Clemons

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Michig (talk) 08:29, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph G. Clemons

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Fails WP:SOLDIER, his portrayal in the movie Pork Chop Hill by Gregory Peck notwithstanding. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:42, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. —Syrenka V (talk) 10:01, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Meets WP:SOLDIER item 4 as he played an important role in the battle of Pork Chop Hill. This is silly to delete someone who has been portrayed in an important battle when we're one of the few sources out there about him. Frank0051 (talk) 03:59, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

An important part in the Battle of Pork Chop Hill? A lieutenant leading a company-level counterattack, one of several, doesn't qualify. Also, "we're one of the few sources out there about him" is not a good argument to make (see WP:GNG). Clarityfiend (talk) 04:50, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Merry Christmas! ^{Babymissfortune} 04:24, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Merry Christmas! ^{Babymissfortune} 04:24, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Merry Christmas! ^{Babymissfortune} 04:24, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep - he made at least colonel and was active in Vietnam as well (something not asserted clearly in current article) [1] - so he's not far off from WP:SOLDIER.Icewhiz (talk) 07:51, 11 December 2017 (UTC) Seem he topped out at a bird - 2007 DISTINGUISHED GRADUATE AWARD - but did get a 2007 West Point award, a bronze star for valor in Vietnam, and is recognized for some innovations regarding helicopter use in combat. He appears in a number of books - both for Korea and for Vietnam - I think he meets GNG from what I see in a BEFORE.Icewhiz (talk) 07:54, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - While I agree he doesn't meet WP:NSOLDIER, I think there's enough coverage for him to clearly meet WP:GNG. Although, most of the coverage is offline. He is covered significantly in Against All Odds! by Bryan Perrett. He is also covered in Tragedy at Chu Lai by David Venditta, although I don't know how extensively (it's more than a trivial mention, but not sure it is "significant coverage"). He has significant coverage in Combat Films by Steven Jay Rubin (Google books link here), as well as in The Screen Is Red by Bernard F. Dick. On Hallowed Ground by Bill McWilliams also covers him extensively (see here). Korean War Filmography by Robert J. Lentz also goes into him in some detail. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 11:25, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep on GNG. Google Books has him in at least a dozen books - unfortunately most are inaccessible in preview mode but there is plenty of discussion about him in the literature. I was able to add one book to the article since it has a page of information that is freely viewable. -- GreenC 15:32, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - All of the results I find on newspapers.com are related to the movie, for which he served as an adviser. They do, however, add some more details on his life, which I'm adding to the article. Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:51, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep - I've decided to !vote as well. I've added a citation to a newspaper article which quotes his Silver Star citation and reads (slight paraphrasing, material from citation in quotes): Clemens "gallantry, personal example, and outstanding leadership" was cited as the major factor in taking and holding the position, commenting figure that "rarely in combat history has a force of the size committed on Pork Chop taken such losses ... and nevertheless continued to hold their position".(Paratroop Korean Hero is Hollywood Bound, The Leaf-Chronicle (Clarksville, Tennessee) March 10, 1958, page 10, accessed December 11, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/15711789/). I think this article provides a bit more support for SOLDIER, as well as V/NOR/N. Certainly their are some POV issues, as it isn't clear how much of the emphasis on Clemons' role in Pork Chop are promotional for the film and how much of it reflects his actual importance. In particular, while the newspaper says his actions were the major factor in taking and holding the position, I don't know if that article is the one in the actual silver star citation. That is, should it read that he was a major factor? A better source might be preferred to overcome NPOV issues. Smmurphy^(Talk) 17:11, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
merge/redirect to Battle of Pork Chop Hill I'm sorry, but I don't think routine mid-level assignments are enough to take this past WP:BLP1E territory, and essentially everything important about him is already recorded in the article on the battle. Mangoe (talk) 17:19, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
~~Weak~~ Keep I've been fairly aggressive on AfDs, but I'm beginning to think that service over more than one war adds some general notability. I added an external link to his DSC while I try to figure out if the DSC was an upgrade of the Silver Star.--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 21:12, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I found an article about his DSC: Former Poly Boy Honored, The Baltimore Sun (Baltimore, Maryland) 31 Jul 1953, page 18, accessed December 11, 2017 at https://www.newspapers.com/clip/15718327/former_poly_boy_honored_the_baltimore/ I've added the ref and some content to the article, but would appreciate it if someone a bit more familiar with reading these citations double checked what I added, as I'm not sure how to summarize these sorts of things. Also, I've fixed the date of the Pork Chop Hill battle, which seems to have been confused with the Triangle Hill battle. Smmurphy^(Talk) 22:35, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if I can prove it, but it seems pretty likely to me that Walter Brown Russell, Joseph's father in law, was a brother to Richard Russell Jr.. One of Richard Russell Jr.'s nephews, possibly a brother-in-law to Clemons, received a Legion of Merit for actions in Vietnam in 1965. While neither of those points are terribly useful for this discussion and I don't see a strong reason to include them in this article, if they were verified, I'm making note of them in case it is helpful. Smmurphy^(Talk) 23:14, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure this is our guy: "United States World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938-1946," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K859-F8P : 5 December 2014), Joseph G Jr Clemons, enlisted 02 Feb 1946, Baltimore, Maryland, United States; citing "Electronic Army Serial Number Merged File, ca. 1938-1946," database, The National Archives: Access to Archival Databases (AAD) (http://aad.archives.gov : National Archives and Records Administration, 2002); NARA NAID 126323, National Archives at College Park, Maryland. This gives us a year and state of birth. He was "recruited" from the Regular Army for USMA. We could actually consider an adding an infobox.--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 01:58, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I found pretty much the same stuff on ancestry.com - giving a birth date of April 30, 1928. I also found a marriage certificate which gives full names for his parents: [2] and [3]. Smmurphy^(Talk) 02:30, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Walter Brown Russell, Clemons' brother-in-law, was also a Georgia state legislator; the gives HIM a page, although I haven't found much except his find-a-grave record and eulogies at the West Point page. I know I'm off topic.--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 19:39, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Has attracted significant coverage die to participation in an important event. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:03, 15 December 2017 (UTC)4[reply]
Keep - I would like to thank all the individuals above that have helped "beef" up Col. Clemons' page over the last several days. As this discussion is supposed to move to the archive early next week, I would just like to formally "cast my vote" for keep based on all the additional information. Frank0051 (talk) 07:30, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I've reformatted all the citations as full academic-style references, and added and cited the Korean War Filmography book (Lentz 2003) found by Onel5969 (thanks!). Quite apart from pages of details about Clemons's role in the battle in the chapter on the movie Pork Chop Hill, Lentz has the following to say about Clemons in Appendix D, on page 436:

Only a handful of regular soldiers have had movies made about their adventures. Lieutenant Joe Clemons was instrumental in holding a piece of crucial, yet unimportant ground in Pork Chop Hill,...

So much for the idea that Clemons's command was too low-level, or too routine, to be worthy of notice. The notability guideline WP:N is all about judging what is "worthy of notice" by what has in fact been taken notice of.

I'm planning to add more references as time allows, especially Joseph I. Marino's HistoryNet article, originally published in Military History magazine in April 2003, and based on S.L.A. "Slam" Marshall's book on the battle of Pork Chop Hill. I suspect that if I had direct access to Marshall's book, I could upgrade this !vote from "Keep" to "Snowball Keep".

—Syrenka V (talk) 12:35, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Above-mentioned Joseph I. Marino HistoryNet article now added as a source. There are pages of material in that article to be mined for further main text for Wikipedia. —Syrenka V (talk) 01:30, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on applicability of WP:SOLDIER, WP:GNG, and WP:BLP1E: from sourcing already demonstrated, Clemons meets WP:GNG by a wide margin. He also meets clause 4 of WP:SOLDIER (although it should be noted that this is only an essay section, not a guideline); the verdict not only of the film Pork Chop Hill, but also of a number of secondary sources commenting on it, is that Clemons's role was anything but "routine". Rank and operational scale are not decisive considerations at all; recall that Rodger Young was only a private, and his Medal of Honor award was for an action conducted as part of a patrol of only 20 soldiers. Finally, WP:BLP1E is not applicable because Clemons has received WP:SIGCOV for at least two different battles. His highest medal (the DSC) was not even awarded for the Battle of Pork Chop Hill (he got the Silver Star for that), but for the earlier Battle of Triangle Hill.

—Syrenka V (talk) 13:07, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per above passes WP:GNG through fails WP:NSOLDIER.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:21, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.