Talk:Lincoln Highway

Lincoln Highway as first transcontinental highway

It simply isn't correct to revert the text at the beginning of this article to say the Lincoln Highway was the very first transcontinental auto highway. In this case, NPR is not a reliable source on the issue because they are reporting on what they were told by Lincoln Highway representatives and not on factual evidence from historical records. I have discussed this issue in the talk page previously.

The Lincoln Highway was certainly not the first transcontinental highway association to form. Nor was it the first to be fully mapped. Carl Fisher's dinner party in Indianapolis did not occur until September 10, 1912. The Lincoln Highway Association was not incorporated until July 1, 1913 and the highway's dedication ceremony did not happen until October 31, 1913.

The National Old Trails Road was based on already existing roads and trails. The entire eastern section between Baltimore and St. Louis was part of the National Road that was built between 1811 and 1837. The road was surveyed all the way to St. Louis by 1920. Road surface construction was completed all the way to Vandalia, Illinois. From St. Louis to Franklin, Missouri, the road followed the Boone's Lick Road set out by Daniel Boone's sons in the early 19th century. The Daughters of the American Revolution marked this old route in 1909. From there the NOTR followed the Santa Fe Trail (1821) to Santa Fe, New Mexico. This was fully marked by the Daughters of the American Revolution in 1907. Between Santa Fe and Albuquerque the National Old Trails Road followed the path of Camino Real de Tierra Adentro (1598–1882), then followed wagon roads such as the Beale's Wagon Road into California. In California it followed part of the paths of the Old Spanish Trail and Brown's toll road into Los Angeles.

The National Old Trails Road had its start in 1910. The Daughters of the American Revolution in Missouri wanted to unite the trails mentioned above into a single transcontinental automobile road. A New Santa Fe Trail highway association had already formed in Hutchinson, Kansas in January 1910. On January 15, 1911, William Patterson Borland (U.S. Repr., Missouri) introduced the Daughters of the American Revolution Old Trails Road Act (H. R. 2864) to the US Congress. The first part of the National Old Trails Road was dedicated in Missouri on October 28, 1911 as the "Missouri Cross State Highway—Old Trails Road." In 1911 a road following closely to the original Santa Fe Trail was laid out and the Old Santa Fe Trail highway association formed in November 1911 in Herington, Kansas. This would become the path of the National Old Trails Road through Kansas.

On December 19, 1911 the very first state convention of the National Old Trails Road took place in Kansas City, Missouri where the Old Trails Road Association of Missouri formed. On December 20-21, 1911 delegates from California, Arizona, and New Mexico met in Phoenix for the Tri-State Road Convention to discuss the "Ocean to Ocean Highway" through their states. The route would become the proposed alignment of the National Old Trails Road.

On April 17-18, 1912, five months before Carl Fisher's dinner party, the first national convention of the National Old Trails Road took place in Kansas City. During this convention the western route of the road was chosen to follow the same route chosen by the Tri-State Road Convention.

On April 19, 1912, advocates for the building of the National Old Trails Road spoke before the Committee on Agriculture of the U.S. House of Representatives regarding the second National Old Trails Road Act (H.R. 17919) to be presented to Congress. William Patterson Borland (U.S. Repr., Missouri), Elizabeth Gentry of the D.A.R., and several others spoke there.

On April 29-30, 1913, three months before the Lincoln Highway Association was even incorporated, the National Old Trails Road Association held its second national convention at which the northern route through Flagstaff, Williams, and Needles was chosen. This road, from Santa Fe, New Mexico to Los Angeles would become the first alignment of US Route 66.

A third convention took place in Indianapolis on May 7-9, 1914. On August 20, 1914, the Automobile Club of Southern California began completely signing the route of the National Old Trails Road between Los Angeles and Kansas City. From that point east, the road was well marked all the way to New York City. The Club released a set of National Old Trails Road maps in 1914, and again in 1915... and well into the 1930s.

In 1926, Harry S. Truman became the second president of the National Old Trails Road Association, replacing Judge J. M. Lowe.

In addition to all this clear evidence of the primacy of the National Old Trails Road, I should note that other transcontinental trail associations formed before the Lincoln Highway Association. The Yellowstone Trail Association officially formed in October 1912, only a month after Carl Fisher's dinner party. In late 1912, discussions for building a southern transcontinental highway took place nationally. On January 20, 1913, over 100 delegates from Arizona and southern California formed the San Diego-Arizona auxiliary of the Southern National Highway Association with the main purpose of building a highway bridge over the Colorado River at Yuma for the highway. (This on the original, pre-1913, routing of the NOTR.) A few days later on February 5, 1913, the South Carolina House and Senate enacted a concurrent resolution proposing the building of the Southern National Highway. On February 12, 1913, five months before the incorporation of the Lincoln Highway Association, a national conference was held in Asheville, NC to chose the path of the Southern National Highway, the southern route from Washington, DC to southern California. Delegates were sent by the governors of 15 southern states. The meeting was organized by Colonel Dell M. Potter of Clifton, Arizona. On November 2, 1915 a documented motorcade took off from San Diego driving to Washington, DC along the Southern National Highway. The Midland Trail also predates the Lincoln Highway. Signage for it was first erected in 1913 and a map by Anton Westgard showing the basic route was published in the New York Times on May 4 1913.

Although not an association, I should also mention the great highway pathfinder Anton Westgard. He drove and mapped out several transcontinental routes and published the maps in newspapers. In 1910, he drove from Chicago to Los Angeles and mapped out a route he called "Trail to Sunset." This entire route was published as a set of detailed strip maps in 1911 by AAA.

In addition to these associations that predated that of the Lincoln Highway, several others formed at nearly the same time. The Pikes Peak Ocean to Ocean Highway Association formed in St. Joseph, Missouri on March 18, 1914. The Dixie Overland Highway Association, much of which would later become US Route 80, formed on July 17, 1914. The first conference of the Old Spanish Trail Association took place in Mobile, AL on December 11-12, 1915. Scores of other auto trails would soon follow.

Though not an east–west transcontinental route, I should also mention one of the first long distance auto trails associations, the Pacific Highway Association formed on September 18, 1910 to create a north-south highway from Mexico to Canada. Much of the road already existed. Much of the El Camino Real section of the Pacific Highway in California was even paved in Portland cement as early as 1909.

So, this is why I respectfully write the phrase "one of the earliest transcontinental highways" at the beginning of the Lincoln Highway article. I feel that unequivocally stating that the Lincoln Highway was the first transcontinental highway is not based on historical fact. I can provide verifiable and reliable evidence for everything I stated above. — — ★Parsa ☞ talk 07:13, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Parsa This is original research. Do you have a source which states your conclusion? 331dot (talk) 08:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I states as much. Everything is verifiable. This is a talk post, not an article in itself. I would think the congressional record for two acts of Congress would be enough. But yes, there are dozens of secondary sources, including this two part article by the same Richard Weingroff cited in the Lincoln Highway article. Part 1, Part 2.

There are also all the early NOTR maps that are considered secondary sources. Here's a 1911 map of the proposed trail route for example. And a 1911 map of the Missouri Cross State Highway—Old Trails Road. There's also association president Joseph Macaulay Lowe's 1924 book The National Old Trails Road : The great historic highway of America, detailing the full history of the highway.

See the following period newspaper and journal article facsimiles of just a couple from dozens that can be sourced:

• The Boone’s Lick Road and Santa Fé Trail: The Missouri Cross-State Highway
• New Highway Association Locates National Road: The 1911 Tri-State Roads Convention in Phoenix

— ★Parsa ☞ talk 09:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:RSP NPR is generally considered reliable. If you disagree with what NPR reports in this case, you need to take that up with them and get them to change their reporting. 331dot (talk) 08:49, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

So Wikipedia will support the statement on a single article from some feature reporter as opposed to the clear sources such as the Federal Highway Administration, the US Congressional Records, many dozens of newspaper and journal articles from around the country, and the records of the Daughters of the American Revolution? — ★Parsa ☞ talk 09:44, 19 March 2023 (UTC)