Talk:Iraq War

	Pending tasks for Iraq War:
	Use <s> and </s> (aka. strikeout) when each of these are done: remove POV in media section Cite all sources in media section Wiki link the various Iraq War articles to relevant sections in this article Give full information for references that are currently only links to sources

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Please start new sections at the bottom of the page.

Tony Blair as a Commander?

Tony Blair is listed as one of the Commanders. However, unlike the USA, the head of the executive branch of the government has no direct connection to the Armed Forces. I might be wrong, and he may indeed be a Commander. However if this is not the case then someone should go ahead and remove him from the list. 202.155.210.86 07:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Tony Blair is not a commander. He is head of HM Government. HM The Queen would be the counterpart of George Bush as she declared war on Iraq and is ultimate commander-in-chief of all Armed Services in the UK. In real terms it is HM Government who controls the forces and no any one minister, although the Minister for Defence has obvious direct input, as does the Prime Minister; but HM The Queen has ultimate power.

As Tony Blair is a civillian and not a commander, and no-one ahs objected to 202.155.210.86's suggestion, I'm removing him.FrstFrs 16:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll add HM Queen Elizabeth II as a commander, because legally she is the British commander-in-chief, and seeing as George W Bush is on the list, and he has similarly little input into military strategy - they both belong there. Also, shouldn't there be at least one Australian commander. matthewcollins1989 19:57, 6 February 2007

I guess it depends on how you define "commander" in this instance. The Monarch is the Head of State, but the actual decisions are made by the Prime Minister who is the Head of Government in this case Tony Blair. The British generals on the ground report to him in pretty much the same way that US commanders report to President Bush. So are we talking about the individual who has the power and makes the actual decisions and policy or are we talking about the constitutional but symbolic leader? Doc Meroe 10:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Either we put in both constitutional commanders (President Bush and the Queen), neither of which are actual field commanders, or leave both out. I would advocate neither being there, as their presence in this section adds nothing significant to the article. The commander section should be reserved for people who actually command. I only put the Queen as a commander because it seemed right, considering that President Bush was recognised here. matthewcollins1989 17:59, 15th February 2007 (UTC)

Basically Bush and Elizabeth II are technically commanders, Bush and Blair are commanders as percieved by the media/general populace, and none of them are actual commanders. - 85.210.21.73 19:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I have changed added Queen Elizabeth. If Bush is there so should she. And not that it matters, but I came about 3 CM from being killed by her motorcade in London one day. malatesta 20:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

RFBailey removed the QEII link in the info box. I left a message on his talk page asking him to comment here on why he did it. I feel that it should be there. malatesta 17:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

My reasoning that Queen Elizabeth II position as Head of State is essentially an honorary one. While the forces are officially "Her Majesty's", she does not command them in what to do. There is a difference between her and Bush in this regard. The President of the United States has far more direct control than the monarch of the United Kingdom. --RFBailey 14:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Gulf War II

Many years from now, when the war is over, it will be called 'Gulf War II' by historians. Most would agree on this. I think we should change the title of this article to 'Gulf War II' and have 'Iraq War' redirect to it. There have been many wars in Iraq, and 'Iraq War' is not the official name of this one. Randomfrenchie 19:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

We cant make decisions based on a crystal ball. We do not know what they will call it in 50 years, thus we simply use the name that people call it today. And thats the Iraq War. ~Rangeley (talk) 19:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

1) Name change has already been proposed and shot down; see Archive 8. 2) By analogy, "Vietnam War" hasn't been replaced by "Second Indochina War" in general usage. 3) There have been many wars in Iraq, but there have also been many wars in the Gulf region. --Groggy Dice T | C 00:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The so called "Iraq War" should be murged with the Gulf War article. They are both the same war that has lasted from when Iraq invaded Kuwait.59.167.56.88 21:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely disagree. Historically speaking the current war in Iraq is the Third Gulf War. First being the Iran/Iraq war, and second the 90-91 invasion and repulsion of Iraqi forces in Kuwait.Izzy1985 04:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be ridiculous to have Queen Elizabeth listed as a commander whether George Bush is listed or not. At least George Bush is the head of the decision making process that determines the number of troops deployed etc. The monarchy is a ceremonial role.

Let's call it the Civil War. j/k. : ) MPS 22:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Template references broken. Template:Iraq War Box

Here is a message I put on the talk page at the above template page, and on the user page of the person who transferred the code for the infobox to it: User talk:AndrewRT

The infobox template idea would be good if the references could be maintained. Some of the references are used by other locations in the main article also. So putting the box in a separate template breaks many references, not just the ones in the infobox. I copied the infobox code back into the main Iraq War article, and left a copy in the template page.

The Iraq War page is very busy, and edited by many people. And viewed by many people. So this problem needs to be fixed before removing the infobox code solely to the template page for transclusion. And there is no room to put a references section in the notes part at the end of the infobox. Space is already at a premium in the infobox. Many discussions over that already. Plus the references in the main article would still be broken.

Please see the template on this page: Casualties of the conflict in Iraq since 2003. I edit both that page and the template on it. Since the template references do not work for using as references in the main article, there are some duplicate references. Click the reference numbers to see what I mean. --Timeshifter 15:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Total Iraqi wounded

In the infobox I removed the total Iraqi wounded number. The source used an unreferenced ratio of 1.8 times the number of deaths. It used the Lancet number of 655,000 deaths as the starting point. Plus it added monthly numbers since July 2006 based on the last Lancet rate of monthly deaths. All to come up with a total of 1,296,830 injured in Iraq.

Here is the source link used:

• http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html#methodology

It states: "Where no credible data on serious injuries to citizens or troops has been made public, our rough estimate uses a conservative, historically-based ratio of 3:1 (serious injuries to fatalities) for troops, 1.8:1 for civilians."

But it gives no reference for that "historically-based ratio." And the Lancet number is both civilian and combatant deaths. And all excess deaths too. So the application of their ratio is incorrect. --Timeshifter 20:21, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Insurgent deaths total in infobox

Not only that, the insurgent casualties- seven thousand in three years- are insanely low. There were three hundred in one battle, and I have a hard time believing that adding in all the suicide bombers who killed themselves, the deaths from coalition operations, the backfiring insurgent direct attacks, etc, that they've lost less than the coalition. Wasn't there an estimate on there around thirty or fifty thousand or so a while back? That sounds more plausible. 199.120.31.20 14:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Top Gun has basically been using his original research as the basis of the insurgent deaths number in the infobox. See the source for that number here:

List of Insurgents killed in Iraq

It is a worthy effort that he is doing. But the number does not meet wikipedia standards since it is not a published number from a reliable source. It is a number created by his adding up of numbers from various reports. None of the sources of those reports claim that their compilations of media and other reports are complete. Lists are OK in wikipedia. But claims of accuracy from such an editor-created list do not meet wikipedia guidelines. So it is OK to link to the list so people can learn about insurgent deaths. But it is not OK to make any real claims about those numbers. --Timeshifter 14:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow, this guy needs a life. Anyway, proper would be N/A. Reliable figures for insurgent casualties are not available. --HanzoHattori 15:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Many of us wikipedians need to step away from the keyboard sometimes. :)

N/A as in "not available", I assume. Here is a quote from the Feb. 5, 2007 CBC article you linked to: "Reliable figures for insurgent casualties are not available. The Pentagon stopped supplying figures for what it called 'non-compliant Iraqi forces' in mid-summer 2003." --Timeshifter 16:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph

The opening paragraph appears to carry a negative bias towards the war. The negative elements of the war listed be be true but the paragraph fails to list any positive outcomes of the war -- thus giving the impression that the war has been nothing less than a total failure. I am not attempting to start a debate on whether or not the war has been successful or not. I simply submit that the opening paragraph should be a bit more sensitive on its approach considering the controversial nature of the subject. --Clayc3466 16:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

"The opening paragraph appears to carry a negative bias towards the war." ??? Considering the way the war is currently going, I'd say it is extremely nice as it doesn't call call the current situation a civil war. It also fails to mention the lies that got us into the war in the first place. Regime change may have been the stated goal, but the US was sold on the WMDs which never materialized. Regime change leaves it open as to whether that the war justified to the public in terms of strategic threat (WMD) or regime change and democracy. It was clearly not justified in terms of democracy, that was only after they, surprise surprise, found no WMDs to speak of. Wikipediatoperfection 00:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipediatoperfection -- leave your political opinion out of it. --Clayc3466 00:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Copperchair sockpuppets

Kronsteen (talk · contribs) and Esteban "Lex" Saborío (talk · contribs) have been blocked as sockpuppets of Copperchair (talk · contribs). See here for my complete post on this topic. If any other editors pop up with similar editing patterns, please contact me and I will look into whether or not they are also sockpuppets. Thanks! TomTheHand 12:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

"we didnt create the war in iraq"-tony snow

at this year's conservative political action conference he said "we didnt create the war in iraq".... this deserves a mention on this page. if you want to verify it, google a search for

conservative political action conference tony snow create war

this obviously deserves a mention on this page, since he is the white house press secretary. and since its, um, a questionable statement, to say the least.

160.39.208.18 20:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to get a user name, and do it yourself. Choose a user name and password. That is all that is involved in getting a user name. Then you can edit. :) --Timeshifter 22:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

thanks for the info, im new here

160.39.208.20 23:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Keep our troops in iraq? any facts to back this up???

why should we not keep pur troops in Iraq?? why should we keep our troops in iraq??

any strong reasons (or any reasons) are welcome! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nickbellamy (talk • contribs) 20:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

First off, this is the English Wikipedia. There are plenty of editors on this site who do not come from the USA (or other countries contributing troops such as the UK), so talking about 'our' troops is somewhat out of place. Second, this page is for discussing changes (or proposed changes) to the article, not for political debate about the war itself. Thanks Cynical 23:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Abu Grahib at the bottom?

This seems like a cover-up to me, I think it should be moved up.

--JesusIsOurSaviour 01:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. --Evergreens78 05:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Bias? Small notes

I think that the italics for the word "surge" in the sentence quoted below from the article is bias. Is there a reason for this formatting? If not, I will remove it.

"In his speech, he made references to changes to be made, including a surge of 21,500 more troops for Iraq, a job program for Iraqis, more reconstruction proposals, and 1.2 billion dollars for these programs."

The issue is that it has become a political term, and away to avoid saying sending 21,500 more troops to Iraq. Find a way to make this clear, without using italics. I think this would fall into the same category as shock and awe. Wikipediatoperfection 16:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I think "increase" would do just as well, perhaps "a 'surge,' or increase," if the terminology is necessary. Other opinions? --BekiB 20:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, some references to party control of the White House seem unnecessary. Could someone more familiar with politics make a quick check? They could easily be removed or their importance explained. Sorry I can't do it myself, but I'm not very familiar with how US government party control would affect events in the article. --BekiB 16:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

They are necessary in that this was by and large a Republican war, and it should be clear which party started this war. Wikipediatoperfection 16:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a broad generalization, considering that support or opposition to this war is not based on political affiliation in many cases and wasn't from its beginning. If there is going to be blame placed in this article, I request more citation to support that. --BekiB 20:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

i think ill delete a couple articles (see 100....)

"Kidnapped" Iranians?

in "January 2007: Bush's "New Way Forward" confronts Iran" it says "American troops raided an Iranian liaison office in northern Iraq on 11 Jan 2007 and detained five employees.[75] "Around 5.00 a.m., after disarming the guards they (U.S. troops) broke into the office, without giving any explanation and arrested five employees," the official IRNA news agency reported, adding that documents and computers were seized.[76][77] The fate of the kidnapped Iranian officials is not known." Isnt the use of the word kidnapped rather biased? It may or may not be true but a serious newspaper would never use the word kidnapped for this situation.

Fremen?

"Some small groups of Fremen warriors have also been sighted" linking to a character from the Dune novels. o rly? 66.235.4.134 02:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

--That's vandalism; it was there for 14 hours before it was fixed. Zirconscot 04:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Date the War started?

Shouldn't this be March 19th, not 20th as the article states? http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-17.html

Should...

is it worth mentioning that this was has lasted longer than our involvement in World War II and Civil War Source. Adamv88 23:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it seems to me a very US-centric type statement that should be avoided, not to mention having an obvious political agenda.141.152.127.21