Talk:Storm Daniel

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An item related to this article has been nominated to appear on the Main Page in the "In the news" section. You can visit the nomination to take part in the discussion. Editors are encouraged to update the article with information obtained from reliable news sources to include recent events.
Notice date: 11 September 2023. Please remove this template when the nomination process has concluded, replacing it with Template:ITN talk if appropriate.

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Good work so far!

Tails Wx 02:02, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Floods in Türkiye on 3rd September

Some News include Deaths by Flooding in Aksaray and Nevsehir on September 3rd. The Cut-off Low which later became Low Daniel which caused the Flooding a few Days later didn´t exist back then. But a weak Surface Low was Situated over Türkiy that Day which later got absorbed into Daniel.

Here the Report about the 2 Deaths in Nevsehir and 1 Dead and 1 Missing in Aksaray https://www.rudaw.net/turkish/middleeast/turkey/04092023

And the Update that the missing Person was found dead https://www.medyaradar.com/sele-kapilan-asel-bebek-olu-bulundu-haberi-2141434 2A02:810B:1040:5230:D647:A14F:301B:C126 (talk) 15:33, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Libya

I suggest moving the lemma to "Storm Daniel" as Daniel has now hit Libya, again with devastating floods. [1] I just made the same move in the German Wikipedia. Andol (talk) 14:17, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Andol: As a page mover, I got rid of the redirect that was in the way and moved the article myself. The current title was no longer feasible anyways considering it's now much more than just Europe.

Noah, AA^Talk 14:38, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose For now there's not enough content for a split. Maybe it will be possible at a later time since this is clearly a major disaster, but I think the content should be on Storm Daniel for now. Johndavies837 (talk) 17:01, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Don’t agree. Bokoharamwatch (talk) 09:22, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See below. Bokoharamwatch (talk) 09:45, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Libya floods

The floods in Libya are very devastating (with up to 2,000 feared dead and thousands missing) so I think the event deserves an article of its own (the storm has hit Egypt today so it might make more sense if the storm causes similar impact in that country too). Quake1234 (talk) 17:01, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Not enough content here yet. No need to be hasty with splits.

Noah, AA^Talk 17:05, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems there’s a consensus then. Very well. Bokoharamwatch (talk) 09:43, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Already? With only one vote? One oppose vote isn't going to achieve consensus. Tails Wx 12:16, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 17:18, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source for Daniel being a tropical cyclone?

I noticed Daniel lacks a source that has it as a TC (No MCC does not count). Nor have i seen any news articles mention it being one or governmental agencies. However KNMI did reportedly mark it as a TC on surface maps but i myself am not aware if this was true. If you have a source, just kindly add it to the article but if one doesn't pop up, it shouldn't be mentioned as a tropical cyclone. HavocPlayz (talk) 23:44, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Technically I believe it won’t qualify as a TC since it occurred north of the Tropics. Borgenland (talk) 12:41, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thats not how it works. Some met students ik classify it as a TC/STC but no agency has called it anything other then a medicane or ETC thus far HavocPlayz (talk) 13:54, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't a medicane a shortened form for a storm in that area? Borgenland (talk) 14:07, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe after this catastrophe, the WMO will finally get their act together and empower an agency to warn on these storms. There isn't any official agency to warn on them at this point. Numerous sources (including one already cited) stated it became a subtropical storm. Tbh they are right because an ETC isn't going to wrap a convective band like what was seen on satellite imagery. Noah, AA^Talk 14:15, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here are several self-published sources by a scientist with some citations. Not a lot of them, though, so unsure if they make him reliable for this claim. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was most definetely tropical - warm core reached to the upper levels of the atmosphere as analysed per CIMSS, ASCAT showed 45kt winds with no associated fronts and a compact core with the strongest winds tied directly to the LLC under bursts of -60c tops. It defo had fully tropical characteristics. We do not have an official source for pretty much anything in the med since it's under like 20 agencies, but i'm almost certain sooner or later we'll get a report on its meteorological history Ikethecatto (talk) 21:10, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Was it actually a tropical storm?

Where is the proof that it was a tropical storm? 2605:8D80:400:53F2:B9C7:5A52:6087:E90D (talk) 02:21, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any proof that this was an actual tropical storm? 2605:8D80:400:53F2:9CBF:EF59:41E:E6A (talk) 18:05, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What kind of proof are you looking for? A reliable source other than what's currently in the article? See the talk page section just above. Renerpho (talk) 20:06, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relief efforts

Do we put relief efforts in a separate chapter? There is an accumulating amount of info from media sources esp in Libya and I'm not sure if it could all be inserted into the Impact section without looking bloated. Borgenland (talk) 11:33, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

they go in aftermath Noah, AA^Talk 15:34, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Missing people count

@CycloneOnyx Multiple sources say that the missing count is 10,000. Not sure where you got 100,000.

CNN

ABC

AP Grave8890 (talk) 17:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/north-africa/1694516394-storm-daniel-leaves-thousands-dead-in-libya-many-more-thousands-missing. This was an English translation of an Arabic article that was used as a citation in the impact section. Personally I do have reservations on its reliability given that it is easy for people including journalists to stumble on zeroes. Borgenland (talk) 17:18, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure about you, but I feel like using reliable English sources would be better than using the English translation of an article. But that's just my opinion :)

Jokes aside, it's much more likely that the translation is incorrect or the author made a mistake. Grave8890 (talk) 17:27, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was originally in Arabic. When I checked later it was replaced by the English version which still had 100k. Borgenland (talk) 17:43, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Then it's most likely an error. Grave8890 (talk) 18:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, I suppose I read incorrect information. CycloneOnyx (talk) 19:16, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

ARTICLE MERGED

Consensus to re-combine. Article merged by User:WeatherWriter. - Fuzheado | Talk 19:17, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2023 Libya flooding should never have been split off to begin with because that's 99% of what Storm Daniel's impact is. That has left this article as a bare shell. The article and its content should be merged back. Noah, AA^Talk 18:08, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Merge based on proposer's reasoning and speedy close based on the fact that the split was done without consultation or consensus and therefore ought not to need a consensus to be undone and remerged JM2023 (talk) 18:19, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Merge: The storm also hit Bulgaria and Greece. But in Libya it resulted in almost 2000 deaths (toll will rise). Per WP:GEOSCOPE, events that have a demonstrable long-term impact on a significant region of the world or a significant widespread societal group are presumed to be notable enough for an article. We also have WP:LASTING, that says events are often considered to be notable if they act as a precedent or catalyst for something else. This includes, for example, natural disasters that result in widespread destruction, since they lead to rebuilding, population shifts, and possible impact on elections. Thilsebatti (talk) 18:16, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Merge – They're the same event, no reason to split it just because it's the most notable aspect of the overall system. The page isn't long enough to justify an article split at this time anyway. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 18:20, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What does the pages' length has to do anyway when we have WP:LASTING. Flooding in Libya is the after effect of this storm that resulted in 2000 deaths. Thilsebatti (talk) 18:27, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's a historic event without question but it's part of a broader system. Page size dictates when it's appropriate to split off a sub-article to avoid the main page being overbearing. Right now that's not the case. This is not to say that a sub-article cannot exist in the future tho. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 19:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The article existed already for days (about the other countries) before Libya was affected. 109.37.150.86 (talk) 18:20, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

but now the article's subject has primarily affected Libya, so to cut all of that out and put it somewhere else means this article does not anywhere near describe the vast majority of its subject JM2023 (talk) 18:23, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Merge The Storm Daniel article was split without consensus. The flooding in Libya was caused by Storm Daniel so that should be the main page, and there's also not enough content to justify multiple pages. Right now readers from the home page are going to Storm Daniel but all of the information about Libya has been removed. I suggest Speedy Close and reverse the split until/unless there's consensus. Johndavies837 (talk) 18:29, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Merge - No reason this should have been split. Hurricane Ian struck more places than Florida, but was not split out of the article. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:34, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy close and merge. The split happened without discussion or consensus, and was IMO unnecessary. Renerpho (talk) 18:45, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is not to say that we can't have a proper discussion about a split again once the article has grown too long. Renerpho (talk) 18:46, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Merge per above, this split results in two small articles that are very much intertwined; many other storms impact multiple countries/areas but it doesn't mean we need to split out the hardest hit area necessarily. Yeoutie (talk) 19:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note - Merge Complete: I have completed the merge. Clear consensus here to merge back plus a technical aspect to the merge, given sections like Aftermath and Libya's impacts were empty or mostly empty with main links to the flood article. That is not proper, given Storm Daniel is currently featured on ITN, meaning a massive and highly visible WP:CONTENTFORK existed. Merge complete. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dubious

The article infobox states that Daniel is part of the 2023–24 Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone season. There is no such thing as a "Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone season". There is a 2023–24 European windstorm season, which Daniel is not part of. A Google search for the term "Mediterranean tropical-like cyclone season" gives exactly one result, namely this Wikipedia article. The information may have been added under the false assumption that those seasons are not clearly defined terms. Renerpho (talk) 18:40, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Problem solved... Just removed the whole thing. Noah, AA^Talk 18:41, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]