Talk:Double negative

I shouldn't be surprised

How would you describe the extremely common usage "I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't rain today", where the speaker actually means that he or she would not be surprised if it did rain? It seems to me to be a form of double negative (or at any rate of the addition of an unnecessary negative). Any ideas? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 14:05, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Litotes. --Kent Dominic·(talk) 23:33, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

I don’t think so. In litotes the two negatives cancel each other out. Here one of them is meant and the other one is redundant. —Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 11:50, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

"I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't rain today" = Litotes. Don't be unsurprised if if I'm not shaking my head. --Kent Dominic·(talk) 17:17, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

That means that you expect that it won't rain. The usage I am talking about is where you mean that you expect it will. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 16:38, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

@Sirmylesnagopaleentheda: If so, then avoid using a double negative in the example: "I would be surprised if it didn't rain today." --Kent Dominic·(talk) 14:24, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

This is not a good example of a double negative. This is a compound sentence in which the first not negates the superior verb surprised, and the second not negates the subordinate verb rained. So, this is an example of two single negatives in two sequential sentences (the relationship between the sentences is not relevant here). Although the current wording of the article doesn't make it clear, double negative occurs when both negations relate to the same construct. — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:58, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

@Kashmiri: Look again: The article says, "A double negative is a construction occurring when two forms of grammatical negation are used in the same sentence." There's no requirement of negation regarding the same referent. Is your definition better than the article's? Perhaps. It's completely rational but contrasts the consensus (so far). For what it's worth, my WP:OR take on it is aggregate negation that creates an affirmative effect. So, "I'm not unsure that I'm right" (standard English) means "I'm sure I'm right"; "Don't make no mistake" (nonstandard English) literally means "Make a mistake" but the colloquial interpretation is pretty obviously "Don't make a mistake. Personally, I'd back you up if you changed the article according to what you've posted. Would you garner more support than just mine? Try it (or suggest it) and see. --Kent Dominic·(talk) 14:24, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

@Kent Dominic: The definition needs to be slightly modified to: A double negative is a construction occurring when two forms of grammatical negation are used in the same clause, so as to exclude compound sentences, such as: "I didn't tell her that I've never been to Canada" or "Nobody could foresee that so many guests will be unwell", which clearly do not contain double negatives. — kashmīrī ^TALK 15:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I'd word it as, A double negative is syntax including two forms of grammatical negation that apply to the same referent, resulting in an affirmation of the referent. It goes beyond just clauses and can apply, off the top of my head, to predicate verbs ("That can't not work) and to a ADJP (e.g. "She's not unwell"). --Kent Dominic·(talk) 15:35, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Yep, much better than mine. But I fear this will be ignotum per ignotius for most readers... — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:46, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and without the latter part ("affirmation") – the article is precisely about explaining the differences between languages, and that in many of them double negation does not equal affirmation! — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:47, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

True. My observations are limited to English. I know that in a language like Spanish, my comments don't apply. --Kent Dominic·(talk) 20:40, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

@Sirmylesnagopaleentheda: In informal standard spoken English, a negative verb (without a negative meaning) is sometimes used after expressions of doubt or uncertainty, I wonder whether I oughtn't to go and see a doctor - I'm feeling a bit funny. --Backinstadiums (talk) 18:20, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Very good point, and may well be the origin of the confusion.

The doctor example is really a case of an indirect question: in the direct form it would be "Shouldn't you go to the doctor", which expects the answer "Yes I should". "I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't rain" is not an indirect question at all, but just a case of miscounting the number of negatives: taken literally, it is the exact opposite of what the speaker is trying to say.

Again this is not uncommon in other languages. In Italian you say "finche non e arrivato" to mean "till he has arrived" (probably by association with "for as long as he hasn't arrived"). --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 12:25, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I sense there is a high degree of confusion. The article is not about cases when a negated verb construct is used to express affirmation; nor about cases where a main clause contains a single negation of a subordinate clause that also happens to to be worded in a negated manner. For me, the concept of double negative refers strictly to the phenomenon when a single clause contains two (or more) negations with respect to the same referent: Je ne sais pas, Я ничего не знаю, You don't know nothin' [1]. — kashmīrī ^TALK 15:58, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

The "I have no doubt..." example is incorrect.

The article describes the example sentence as having the verb "to doubt", but it doesn't. The word "doubt" here is being used as a noun.

Were it a verb, it'd be the "I have (never) not doubted..."

This completely breaks at least 2-3 paragraphs of the article. 2600:1004:B0B2:5D87:3445:9CE0:B615:D0CD (talk) 16:40, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Cannot but

It seems to me that an expression like “can’t not” is awkward, in any register of English, in contrast with “cannot but”. To me, “cannot but” is a double negative which is unambiguously a strong positive. TomS TDotO (talk) 11:07, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

What would an example of that be?

Because for "can't not", it can be pretty simple. For example, "you can't not beat this game" means "you can't lose this game", probably because it's too easy or something. cogsan (talk) 15:47, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

It seems to me that constructions like "not today you're not" and "that isn't true I don't think" are not covered yet

I'm not a linguist, but none of the existing categories seem to describe these double negatives that are pretty common in informal American English (although I am not sure whether they're part of Standard English.) To my ear, they're not uniformly intensifying (in the case of adding "I don't think" to an already negative assertion I would argue it actually softens it.) Is there a word for them? Are they part of a particular variety of English? Are they worth mentioning in the article? 2003:FC:D71D:E9B8:1C99:148A:B611:D0E1 (talk) 06:08, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Doubled negatives?

This article uses "doubled negatives" instead of "double negative" three times. Which is correct? Ex in the intro: "In some languages, double negatives cancel one another and produce an affirmative; in other languages, doubled negatives intensify the negation." Should it actually be "...double negatives intensify the negation?" Is this a typo or was it intentional? DivineReality (talk) 09:31, 31 October 2023 (UTC)