Talk:Lofoi

Reliable sources Pov edits

These sources, given on Lofoi article rv are not reliable, and go against Wikipedia policies, but somehow has been done, other users can progressively submit the same too. --Notesenses (talk) 17:43, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

How is this source not reliable? --Local hero ^talk 19:05, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

It's just a falsification of the source. The source means the Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia (Slavophones). --Notesenses (talk) 19:51, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Scroll down to "Tableau 3 - Département de Florina." Find Lofoi in the table. Look over to the "Langues" part of Lofoi's listing. You'll notice it says 'M1'. Scroll down some more and you'll see that 'M = macédonien'. You'll also see that '1 = La langue minoritaire est utilisée à tous les âges, en public et en privé. Elle a tendance a être la langue dominante dans les relations interpersonnelles. Connaissances très limitées du grec pour certaines personnes âgées.' --Local hero ^talk 19:57, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Just means the local vernacular (idiomatic) jargon of such periphery (i.e.Macedonia), and the only report regards, Slavophones 1

--Notesenses (talk) 20:20, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Have to agree with Notesenses on this. This village has got Bulgarian history and it is noted that Bulgarian families lived there. To claim that the people who live there are specifically of the same ethnicity of the "Republic of Macedonia" also misrepresents the information that is presented in the revues.org article. And yes, I do speak French. It says "Slavophones". It does not say "Macedonians". Do you have a reference that says "Macedonians" that does not mean "of the Macedonian region of Greece"? There appears to be a movement on Wikipedia that consider any Slavophone who lives in the Macedonian region of Greece to be of one pure ethnicity. In modern Greece, that is simply not possible. There are Slavophones from many countries who live in northern Greece. It is not possible to claim ethnic purity.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 20:53, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

(::Right, (previously) I meant their sources before. Pov) --Notesenses (talk) 21:38, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

There's a real shock. I'm not concerned about the village's history and you seem to have misunderstood; the version you and yours keep reverting does not state that they are ethnic Macedonians it says that they are Macedonian-speaking. --Local hero ^talk 21:44, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Therein lies the problem. The Wikipedia article about that language says that those that speak it are ethnically from the "Republic of Macedonia" and its diaspora. The reference that you have given is about the language that they speak. It provides no evidence concerning the ethnicity of those that speak it. Clearly, this is not the case since historically the Slavic-speaking minority was mostly Bulgarian and they have never been to the "Republic of Macedonia" or the former Socialist Republic. You are ignoring the history and the ethnicity of the minority. Moreover, there are many Slavic-speakers and descendents of Greek ethnicity who have returned from Slavic countries after the Greek civil war. Unfortunately, claiming that they speak the same kind of Slavic that is predominantly in the "Republic of Macedonia", and its diaspora, it misrepresents their ethnicity because the Wikipedia article about the language claims that they are all from the "Republic of Macedonia", and its diaspora (when clearly they are not).  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 00:22, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

There is a whole section of the page which discusses the fact that there are people who speak the Macedonian language yet do not identify as ethnic Macedonians. The second part of your response is nothing but utter nonsense and excuse making. Slavic speaking refugees were not permitted to return from the Greek civil war given that they are not Greek by Genus (Yes, there was a Greek law excluding non-Greeks from returning). And furthermore, the inhabitants of the village speak the Prilep-Bitola dialect of Macedonian which in fact forms the basis of the codified Macedonian language. Although this isn't a reliable source, you may just want to take note of the fact that here the inhabitants of the village are performing the song known as "Aegean Macedonian Mothers" (here are the lyrics). These people are obviously pure Hellenes, cough. Lunch for Two (talk) 00:43, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Slavic-speaking Greeks were allowed to return to Greece after the Greek civil war. You cannot argue with that. Do you have any evidence that the Slavic-speakers of Lofoi are from the "Republic of Macedonia" or its diaspora other than the language that they speak since it appears that a lot of people speak this Slavic dialect who have never seen the "Republic of Macedonia" (and neither have their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, or great-great-grandparents). Moreover, there is historical evidence for Lofoi that shows that these Slavic-speakers had more to do with Bulgaria. In fact, it is also clear in the article about the language, that the Slavic-language dialect spoken in the Macedonian region of Greece, is significantly different to the language spoken in the "Republic of Macedonia" i.e. it is not identical to the language spoken there, just as it is not identical to the language spoken in Bulgaria. Yet, the difference is not mentioned at the top of that article.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 01:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

The different dialects of Macedonian are, just as with every language article, discussed in the body. Once again, we're not stating ethnicity here. We're just saying, as the source says, that the people of Lofoi speak Macedonian. Don't make an issue out of nothing. --Local hero ^talk 04:30, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

You don't need to have seen the Republic of Macedonia or have parents from there to identify as an ethnic Macedonian (You will find many ethnic Macedonians who live in Australia/America whose whole family originates from Greece for example). The Macedonian minority in Albania is an example of this. By your logic the ethnic Greeks living in the Ukraine and Russia are not ethnic Greeks because they have never been to Greece, nor do they speak Greek, because the way they speak is different to the way in which a person living in Athens speaks. Lunch for Two (talk) 10:11, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

@Lunch for Two. That is not what I said nor does it represent my logic. @Local hero. "The people of Lofoi" or just the Slavic-speakers of Lofoi? Would you like to place the flag of the "Republic of Macedonia" at this village? I also note that Fut Perf is flexing his admin muscles again without due care and attention. He is treading on thin ice.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 23:46, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

I will take you up on that offer. It will give the inhabitants something to dance around as they sings songs like Where are you Macedonians? Aegean Macedonia mourns for you.... You continuously just "miss the point" of the entire discussion. Lunch for Two (talk) 13:57, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I get the point. You are trying to convince the world that the Slavic population of the Macedonian region of Greece is attributable to the "Republic of Macedonia". Obviously there are references that support that view. But historically the Slavic population of northern Greece has been called Christian, Serbian, or Bulgarian, or Slavomacedonian (which specifically means Slavs of the Macedonian region of northern Greece and not Slavs of the "Republic of Macedonia"). The history of the territory is complicated by many conflicts, by refugees, by immigrants, and was also affected by the schools and churches that were supported by countries like Bulgaria. In the case of this particular village the population was lucky enough to be provided with a school and a priest by the Bulgarian Exarchate. Historical records show that the local population was considered to be Bulgarian. Along come a few propagandists who favor a revised version of history and claim that these people are "Macedonians" who are of the same gene pool and language pool as that of the "Republic of Macedonia". Even you have said that the Slavic dialect that is used in northern Greece is only spoken in two locales in the "Republic of Macedonia". Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your point of view, history cannot be changed that easily, no matter how often the new version of history is chanted. I also find it hard to believe that the Bulgarian school was teaching anything but Bulgarian. And let's face it. It was a Bulgarian school. It was not provided by anyone in pre-Yugoslavia. The reality is complicated further by the fact that the actual ethnicity of the individuals concerned has little to do with the language that they speak. Moreover, there were at least three Slavic factions in the Slav community in northern Greece and the factions that were supported depended on what was in the best interests of the locals concerned. Bulgaria considers what you consider as a dialect of "Macedonian" to be a dialect of "Bulgarian". Funnily enough, I looked at a Bulgarian article and was surprised at how many words I could read and understand and I have never bothered to look at the language before in my life. The written form of the Slavic language was first documented by Hellenophones. If you take the trouble to look at the letters that were written and posted a hundred and two hundred years ago. Many letters in what preceded Yugoslavia, and in Romania, Wallachia, Moldavia, Bulgaria, and even in the Ottoman Empire were written in the Greek language because the Greek language was predominant in the Balkans. Like I said. You can't change history. You can't burn all the letters that were written in the Greek language. You can't change the fact that the language that Alexander the Great used was Greek or change the fact that the coins minted for Alexander the Great were minted in the Greek language. There are no ancient coins of that dynasty and period minted in Slavic. Alexander the Great was a Hellenophone and everything that he did in ancient times was documented in the Greek language. Do you have any ancient Slavic sources that document anything? No you don't. Why? Because Slavs could not write. Only the very privileged few who were priests, educators, royalty, or the very wealthy with privileged educations could and the language that they used was Greek. The predominant religion of the "Republic of Macedonia" is Orthodox Christianity which was disseminated first by the Armenians and the Greeks. The Armenians built the first Christian churches in the world and they were Orthodox Christian. Ethnic Greeks were amongst the disciples of Christ. So this new nation that has chosen to call itself "Republic of Macedonia" owes its written language and majority religion to Greeks and Armenians (no need to exclude the Armenians). You wouldn't know that when you consider all the propaganda that comes out of Skopje.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 16:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Glad you get the point. Let's all move on now. --Local hero ^talk 16:57, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

No. Let's continue to discuss. At this moment in time I think that this article deserves a POV banner/tag of some kind.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 17:04, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

The whole article is such a mess. There is an issue with usage of english language that is really below the level of quality that a wikipedia article should have. The whole issue is nilpotent, about the village of Lofoi. However, I do not see why such focus on how the name is in "Macedonian" "Bulgarian" or whatever language there is. It would be the same to say that Geneva is also named Geneve in French, and it would bare the same amount of information. Personally, I just follow this article because it is very amusing to see people argue over nothingness, although I had hopes that issue would be finally resolved. Therefore, long live "the people of Zardani" , such a joke. Although , I have to state that I never found the citations credible or exhibiting scientific consensus. Yparjis (talk) 12:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the note, Fut. I like it when admins are not sarcastic and cynical to editors. And I especially like the way that you were the one who coined the lamppost/dogpiss version. Oh, and thanks for removing the ъ version of the name, as well. --Laveol ^T 18:53, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

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