Talk:Urban area (France)

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It would be useful to have land area figures for these units to help readers to assess how far the French are inflating the concept of a metropolitan area compared to other countries. Luwilt (talk) 20:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be adding content to this stub from the French aire urbain article soon: I'm sure they have some data about that there. THEPROMENADER 16:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Aire urbaine

From reading the second sentence of this article, I think there may be a problem with the page move from "Aire urbaine" to here. If "metropolitan area" is in fact the appropriate translation, the current page should be moved to "Metropolitan area (France)" (lowercase "area"). Eric ^talk 02:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also have issue with the article being moved here - the NA concept of 'metropolitan area' is not at all like the INSEE's 'aire urbaine', so the article should be at its proper 'proper name' place. If there is no further ado, I will move it back. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 08:52, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just got word from the INSEE themselves (the creators of the aire urbaine), and they confirm that this article is incorrectly named: they sent their reasons and justifications for naming this "urban area" (adherence to EU definitions) and sent references to their own website and EU documents: the translation of aire urbaine should be "urban area" and not "metropolitan area". Please see page 16: the definition there corresponds perfectly to INSEE's definition of an aire urbaine [1] (their English translation of the same page, "urban area": [2]). THEPROMENADER 13:11, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So are we thinking of moving it to "Urban area (France)"? Eric ^talk 13:37, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

More than thinking, it has to move. English Wikipedia is the only place in the world that translates aire urbaine to "metropolitan area", and the INSEE itself confirms this is wrong. THEPROMENADER 13:56, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it should be moved. My question was regarding the new name. Eric ^talk 16:35, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, sorry! Urban area (France), of course - both the official translation and EU definition/documents use this term and share the same criteria. As it's a description, not a title, the 'area' shouldn't be capitalised (as it shouldn't have been already in this namespace!) THEPROMENADER 16:45, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Moving now...Eric ^talk 01:48, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Great. The INSEE-created unit of measure this article is about applies to all French agglomerations no matter their size, and the INSEE is unequivocal about their :

"le choix de "urban area" a été fait pour être en cohérence avec la plupart de traduction institutionnelles qui existent. Par exemple : [3], p.16 ... ou encore : [4] ... La traduction sous la forme "metropolitan area " est rarement rencontrée."

...but I'm still looking to see how referenced foreign publications use "metropolitan area" when referring to bigger cities in France. If it's not vague references to 'the area around Paris', all I'm finding is references to the Île-de-France. As the INSEE says, the term "metropolitan area" is never used to refer to the aire urbaine... and, ironically, the only place that does this is Wikipedia and the websites that have copied it. THEPROMENADER 22:43, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Aire urbaine is not an urban area, anybody with a decent knowledge of urban concepts would understand this. Urban areas are the built up areas what is corresponding to the French "unité urbaine". Writting that "Aire Urbaines" are "urban areas" it is like writting that North Korea is a democracy because the name says so. This is wrong!! An area based on the commute patterns to a defined core is called "Metropolitan area" which is exactly what are "Aire urbaine". Minato ku (talk) 13:48, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Are you purposefully ignoring the papers and references above? The INSEE is unequivocal about their translation. This article is about the INSEE aire urbaine statistical unit, a demographic that can apply to any agglomeration big enough to have one (the "Périgueux Metropolitan Area" ?!). But, in a 2011 study, the INSEE did use the term "aire metropolitaine" to describe France's larger aires urbaines, so, don't worry, the 'Paris Metropolitan area' article will be staying where it is.
"Not to my taste" (or: "I wanna use North American definitions!") does not equal "wrong". If you don't like it, write the INSEE about it. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 14:51, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that North Korea is a democracy and that we can't refute this idea just because it does not meet international criteria? I was hopping that an encyclopedia was the synthesis of knowledge (adapting informations to an international context) not just a copy past of any information not matter if this is wrong or true or incomprehensible to the international readers. In this international context "Aire Urbaine" is not an urban area. Minato ku (talk) 11:06, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't even make any sense: again you're just showing you don't care about references or rational discussion.

Again again, apologies that the INSEE doesn't ape your country of choice; like I said, if you don't like it, write them. THEPROMENADER 16:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I only care about the accuracy. Just take the time to read the article Urban area. "Unlike an urban area, a metropolitan area includes not only the urban area, but also satellite cities plus intervening rural land that is socio-economically connected to the urban core city, typically by employment ties through commuting, with the urban core city being the primary labor market." The Wikipedia article about urban area is saying clearly that the equivalent of "Aire Urbaine" is metropolitan area and not urban area which is only based on built-up area. Minato ku (talk) 18:35, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm quite familiar with that article, thanks, and of course you're reading only what you want to. "The definition I like" is not "accuracy". Both "Urban area" and "metropolitan area" have many, many definitions throughout the world.

The INSEE has theirs, and they are France's official demographics institution. Write them, ask them to change it - maybe a lone wikipedian's love for the United States will sway them.

Do let me know of their answer. THEPROMENADER 18:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, this INSEE definiton is for "Aire Urbaine", not for urban area. INSEE is French, it is not an English speaking agency and as such its studies are done in French. Any English text from them has to be seen with circonspection (they can make mistakes). So, to translate the concept of Aire Urbaine in English you have to take the closest equivalent concept from English speaking countries. This closest equivalent is Metropolitan area. Minato ku (talk) 20:17, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What a stupid and arrogant appeal to (assumed) ignorance. So you are saying that the INSEE is stupid for not adopting your preferred definition, and you are saying that they are purposely making asses of themselves with their translation. AND you ignore their documentation and justification for their translation (itself referenced with references they provide). WTF?

"le choix de "urban area" a été fait pour être en cohérence avec la plupart de traduction institutionnelles qui existent. Par exemple : [5], p.16 ... ou encore : [6] ... La traduction sous la forme "metropolitan area " est rarement rencontrée."

And what's the point of arguing with me? Write to them if you want it changed! THEPROMENADER 20:29, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have nothing more to say on this. THEPROMENADER 20:32, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I note that in your link here [7] many of the "Aire Urbaine" version are not related to the INSEE Aire Urbaine.
Anyway this is an encyclopedia, what matter is the closest equivalent concept, not the most common form used to translate a word.
By translating Aire Urbaine into Urban area in Wikipedia, you are misleading the reader who may believe that the Aire Urbaine de Paris is equivalent to New York urban area when in fact that's Apple and Oranges.
Don't forget the WP:OFFICIAL Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources. Minato ku (talk) 21:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is about references; it is not an ignorant bar conversation.

But just for fun, let's have a look at the overwhelming number of translations of "metropolitan area" to "aire urbaine"... hmmmm. None. [8] Misleading, you said?

"Urban area" is perfectly understandable English, and the INSEE tells us they use it because it is "...en cohérence avec la plupart de traduction institutionnelles qui existent."

"Urban area" is an INSEE single-purpose statistical tool that is used for agglomerations of all sizes, unlike the metopolitan area. This article is about that tool. (And: the "Périgueux Metropolitan Area" ?!).

"Urban area", when it is used in French articles, will of course be defined because of its (and 'metropolitan area's) different meanings between different countries. Are you going to change all those, too?

"Urban area" is the official INSEE translation of aire urbaine. Get over it. THEPROMENADER 22:14, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, urban areas between the different countries in English Wikipedia has just one meaning (built-up area) except for the France. Note that most other countries have an article about the Metropolitan area but not about the Urban area.

The word urban area is maybe perfectly understandable in English but it has a different meaning than the INSEE Aire Urbaine.

Wikipedia is maybe about references but it is not about a silly use of references without any thinking. Terms must be consistent with the use in other articles or this is misleading to the readers and this is lowering the quality of the encyclopedia. To be consistant with other articles, it is the word Metropolitan area that should be used to describe Aire Urbaine.

INSEE is a French speaking agency, all its study are done in French. The few articles in English are a just simple translation written by few employees of this agency. Using the word official to describe these translations is very exagerated. Minato ku (talk) 23:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"No, urban areas between the different countries in English Wikipedia has just one meaning (built-up area) except for the France. Note that most other countries have an article about the Metropolitan area but not about the Urban area."

- That's flat-out not true, and the Urban area article's per-country definitions show this clearly. And, like I said before, France's largest cities are sometimes called aires métropolitaines by the INSEE, so their aire urbaine articles aren't moving.

"The word urban area is maybe perfectly understandable in English but it has a different meaning than the INSEE Aire Urbaine."

- Your preferred definition of "urban area" (the american one, obviously) is different than the INSEE's. So what? Again, It would have to be defined in the article even if the term used was "metropolitan area."

"Wikipedia is maybe about references but it is not about a silly use of references without any thinking. Terms must be consistent with the use in other articles or this is misleading to the readers and this is lowering the quality of the encyclopedia."

- What is "silly use of references without thinking"? You obviously do not understand what Wikipedia is about. So the INSEE is silly? The term "metropolitan area" has even more definitions than "urban area" does!

- And, again, this article is about the INSEE aire urbaine statistical tool.

"it is the word Metropolitan area that should be used to describe Aire Urbaine"

- This is just your affirmation. Like the INSEE says, the aire urbaine translates overwhelmingly to "urban area" [9] but where does "metropolitan area" ever translate to aire urbaine [10]?

"INSEE is a French speaking agency, all its study are done in French. The few articles in English are a just simple translation written by few employees of this agency. Using the word official to describe these translations is very exagerated."

- You're just pulling the "employees" hypothesis out of your ass. Why would they do this? Their translation is intentional, purposeful and explained by them, and I've shown you that, and their references, three times already.

I've wasted at least a good hour burying you in evidence with your better understanding in mind, but you seem to pretend that it doesn't exist.

Lastly, this only concerns this article about the INSEE tool. If INSEE updates their translation and their usage of the same in their English documentation, this article name will change too. Again, don't worry, the few big city articles that have "aire urbaine de..." articles aren't moving. And again again, if you do want to question their translation (and their justification), write them! THEPROMENADER 01:30, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note This time I'm pulling something out of my ass, but one reason the INSEE may (again, this is but my hypothesis) have opted for "urban area" is their tool's application down to France's smallest agglomerations - again, the idea of the "Périgueux Metropolitan Area" seems a bit ridiculous. This is also why the INSEE only calls its largest aires urbaines "aires metropolitaines". AND there's also their "unité urbaine" (urban unit) that matches the NA definition of "urban area". Sorry that the difference requires some added context for readers, but that's the way it is. THEPROMENADER 01:58, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Big and small "Aire urbaines" are calculated in exactly the same way. I don't see why the word metropolitan area would be more suitable for one or another depending the size. Metropolitan area has nothing to do with the size of a city, it's just an area around a city measured by commuting patterns. This is what is the concept of Aire Urbaine. Périgueux metropolitan area may sound ridiculous to you but in theory nothing restrict the size of a metropolitan as long it can be calculated.

About urban area, there are some differences in the calculation method of urban area depending of countries or agencies (50m instead of 200m and other minor details) but it calculates the same thing, the urban sprawl of a city. Aire urbaine is not about the urban sprawl and thus is not an urban area. Minato ku (talk) 13:04, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"I don't see why the word metropolitan area would be more suitable for one or another depending the size." - the INSEE does, as they only call France's 22 largest aires urbaines "aires métropolitaines".

Again, the the fact that the INSEE definition of "urban area" doesn't correspond to your preferred definition of "urban area" (no matter how many 'appeal to popularity' countries use that definition) does not make the INSEE definition "wrong". An article using the French definition of the term requires a description (as it would anyway), and that's it! THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 13:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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