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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by BasilE99 (talk | contribs) at 01:35, 15 February 2024 (→‎Citizenship: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Citizenship

Tatoo111. good day. (1) The source you provided stating he raised Georgian flag but this does not mean he is a Georgian as many mma fighters do raised other countries' flags during the actual weight in or ceremony weight in or hang the flags in the octagon or during post fight invterview. (Note: He was born in Germany as per source). (2) As per your edit summary, you stated he parents are Georgian, that does not make him a Georgian citizen. If If you can find independent, relaible sources such as from the major newspaper the subject is of Georgian heritage, then you can add the info in the "body text" under "Background" section and not the lead//intro section with source support the claim. (3) UFC is not considered an independent source for the subject (Topuria) has an association with UFC since he fights under UFC banner. (4) Pls do not revert again but discuss the issue here as an edit warring notification has been sent to your talk page, and if you continue to revert you will be blocked. Cassiopeia talk 23:38, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cassiopeia in an Interview he mentioned having both Georgian and Spanish citizenships. He's fighting out of Alicante Spain. Representing Georgia in honor of his homeland, but alongside Georgian flag, he holds Spanish flag, for the opportunity Spain gave him to train. --Lemabeta (talk) 19:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lemabeta (1) info need to be supported by independent, reliable sources. (2) Fighting out of certain country and fight under certain flag or his heritage do not equal of having a the citizenship in the country. If you can find independent, reliable sources (what he say in a interview is considered NOT independent source and utube is not a considered a reliable source but would consider if you can provide the website (not in youtube) that he has Georgian and Spain citizenship) then pls provide and we can add in the info and until then "German-born MMA fighter..." will remain in the article as he was born and raised in Germany are well-sourced.22:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Lemabeta The sources need to be independent and reliable - sportscovering and playerswiki.com are not reliable.00:45, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Cassiopeia Ilia Topuria has said in numerous Georgian interviews that he holds both Georgian and Spanish passports and represents both countries. I dont understand why you are trying to Germanize him. --Lemabeta (talk) 00:45, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lemabeta Again, many fighters say they "represent" certain countries or their heritage/blood line/ ethnicity or the whole world, that does not equal they are the citizens of that countries of the world. It is a different thing. You need to provide sources to support the claim. In Wikipedia, it is all about verification. And again, he was born and raised in Germany. Nationality is not a bout heritage nor ethnicity or race. I am not against you nor Toupuria or any editors on this topic. I mainly follow the Wikipedia guidelines. Info needs to be supported by independent, reliable sources, and some info can be added if the source is from the subject and in this case, it could be and that is the reasons I ask you if you can provide the source (web page). Example: If he in real life have 3 children and the source say two we have to put 2 and not 3. So same here, if the source indicates he has Spanish and Gerogian passport, then we put that in if not we dont. Cassiopeia talk 00:59, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: To whom it may concern" I have removed German citizenship as Toupouri was born in Germany in 1997 and according to this article, he is not eligible to acquire German citizenship/national due to he moved to Georgia after staying in Germany only 7 years. Cassiopeia talk 04:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cassiopeia Again we come back here, last time we agreed that he has both Georgian and Spanish passports quoting you: "if the source indicates he has Spanish and Gerogian passport, then we put that in if not we dont". Source indicates that he has both citizenships. Yet you still deleted Georgian part from it. Lemabeta (talk) 09:58, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Lemabeta As per Wikipedia guideline -MOS:CITIZEN, We only put the current country where the subject is a citizen where he was notable. When Topuria was in George, he was not notable to have a page in Wikipedia, so we dont put that in the lead section (intro). Cassiopeia talk 11:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cassiopeia he became notable in USA. Not in Spain or in Georgia, before fighting in USA he was fighting in Bahrain not Spain. How does it make sense to take away the nationality?? Its misleading. He currently holds both citizenships, therefore it needs to be mentioned that he is Georgian mma fighter. Lemabeta (talk) 14:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Spain doesnt allow dual citizenship for Georgian citizens. Nswix (talk) 14:39, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nswix That gives more ground to writing Georgian, as source stated that Ilia has both passports. Its unclear which passport he currently holds, therefore unless further clarification Georgian needs to be written. Lemabeta (talk) 15:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know you have some sort of pro-Caucasian agenda, and this means a lot to you, but per MOS:NATIONALITY you list nationalities where subject established themselves. He's lived in Spain since he was 15. Nswix (talk) 15:41, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nswix , @Cassiopeia living in Spain, doesnt make him Spanish citizen. Source is faulty, as neither of those countries allow dual citizenship, meanwhile the only source about passport says that he has both passports. Therefore unless further clarification Georgian mma fighter should be written because its his ethnicity. Lemabeta (talk) 15:49, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nswix As we established that the citizenship source is faulty, it would be wise to write "Ilia Topuria is a professional mma fighter of Georgian descent" instead of Spanish or Georgian, so the readers arent misled into thinking its talking about citizenship. Lemabeta (talk) 15:57, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nswix @Cassiopeia MOS:NATIONALITY states "in controversial or unclear cases, nationality is sometimes omitted." Since the source is faulty and can not be trusted as the both countries don't allow dual citizenship nationality aspect needs to be omitted. Therefore as i haven't heard from any of you, i am concluding that we have reached a consensus, i am changing it to "Ilia Topuria is a professional mixed martial artists of Georgian descent" Lemabeta (talk) 18:54, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your edit violates MOS:ETHNICITY. Your sources also aren't reliable. You also have an open ANI against you for your conduct. Nswix (talk) 19:00, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nswix MOS:NATIONALITY states "in controversial or unclear cases, nationality is sometimes omitted." and bring an example of Nicolaus Copernicus. The sources listed aren't reliable as he can not possibly have dual citizenship, therefore i used an example given. Lemabeta (talk) 19:05, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nswix Okay, ethnicity will not be mentioned in the lead, nor will the nationality. Lemabeta (talk) 19:06, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nswix You aren't responding, yet changing it back. Stop edit warring and answer me here. Lemabeta (talk) 19:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nswix and Lemabeta: We are editors from different parts of the world with different time zones and have to work and personal commitments, so editors might not able to respond in time as one wish. Pls be patient.
(1) It is well sourced thaTopuria was born in Germany and moved to Georgia from age 7-15 and moved to Spanish since.
(2) German citizenship - As link provided in the discussion above - according to this article, he is not eligible to acquire German citizenship/national due to he moved to Georgia after staying in Germany only 7 years.
(3) Georgian citizenship, see -1 -2 -1, -3, and [1], Spain does not have agreed dual treaty with Georgia - this means one needs to denounce Georgian citizenship when they became Spanish citizen. (Note: When Topuria talks about having Georgia citizenship, he mostly referred to his bloodline/race/heritage/ethincity]] self right and not referred to present Spanish government's law, just like many editors would refer

Muhammad Mokaev as Russian who was born in Dagestan, Russia, but he moved to England and obtain his UK citizenship and became notable after he was English national so we refer him as an English MMA fighter in Wikipedia; or Alexander Volkanovski as Macedonia / Greek because of his heritage but in Wikipedia we refer to where he was born and became notable which is Australia or Belal Muhammad always refers himself as Palestine which is his technicity or heritage but he was born and became notable in US, so we refers him in Wikipedia as American or Stipe Miocic had brought Croatian flag and wearing Croatian flag pants (before UFC-Rebook deal) to the octagon but he was born and notable in US, so we put he is an American in the lead section, and many other examples who carry other countries flags which is not their birth countries and etc.)

(4) As per Wikipedia MOS:NATIONALITY, when the subject "became" notable as per Wikipedia guideline, we put the nationality and/current citizenship on the lead section and we can place the ethnicity in the body text. So For Touria page, we put he is a Spanish MMA fighter and in the body text we can put his ethnicity which already stated his parents are Georgian descent. Cassiopeia talk

23:33, 27 January 2024 (UTC):It's a matter of understanding what nationality is, which is a very complex topic in itself, and

there are many views on it, ranging from a primordial ethnic based understanding of nationalism to modernist schools of thought. Modern western nations usualy have modernist understanding of nationality, other nations might not share this view, this is the case for Georgia as well, and for many Georgians too, for many of them their nationality is tied to their enthnicty and Ilia has said numerous times that he feels Georgian and represents Georgia as his main flag. So in the end topic of nationality is a non-technical social issue and to find a common ground it would be in everyone's best interest to write that he is both Georgian and Spanish. BasilE99 (talk) 18:32, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand you are new to Wikipedia, I suggest you to read MOS:NATIONALITY guidelines. Cassiopeia talk 21:35, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Problem is the fact that we do not know what Ilias citizenship is, and even if we did it wouldn't be wrong to say that his Georgian and Spanish since he is ethnically Georgian and grew up in there, even Wikipedias nationality guidelines that you posted says that it is possible. BasilE99 (talk) 01:35, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2022

79.150.245.34 (talk) 01:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

He is spanish

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Background

Moved back to Georgia at age 7 (from Germany). Moved to Spain at 15. Source is this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MivJ1FR7QKg around 4:20 46.242.15.115 (talk) 12:29, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@46.242.15.115 exactly like the article says. Nswix (talk) 02:51, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2022

Change Ilia'sfight with Jai Herbert from "Lightweight debut" to "Lightweight bout," because it was a one off.

Also, please remove "return to featherweight" from his fight with Bryce Mitchell.

If you do not think it wasn't a one off, please cite your sources. Standard practice in Wikipedia is when a fighter has one fight in a different weight class, and is not making a permanent change, you write "Xweight bout," not Xweight "debut." His fight with Bryce Mitchell was not his "return to featherweight," it is his regular weight class.

Again, a citation is needed if you are aware of a permanent change to lightweight. 2607:FEA8:1F9F:BB00:40A5:D9D2:1920:E8C1 (talk) 20:55, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: I've been editing mma articles for years... I don't know about you since you're unregistered, but it seems not. I know all of the standards for MMA (actually helped create a lot of them). You're right to a point, however when a fighter makes their debut in a division, we always add it as debut. Even if it was just one bout. That's the correct form. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 22:39, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality

Ilia Topuria is Georgian Please correct information (Topuria was born in Halle Westfalen, Germany to Georgian parents. At the age of seven he moved to Georgia with his family where he started practicing Greco-Roman Wrestling at school. At the age of 15 he moved to live in Alicante in Spain, where he started practicing martial arts at the Climent Club.) 176.221.191.139 (talk) 18:46, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per MOS:NATIONALITY only list nationalities where subject has established themselves. And since Spain doesn't allow dual citizenship with Georgia, we just list him as Spanish. Nswix (talk) 20:01, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 7 February 2024

Change nationality to Georgian. He is of Georgian nationality living in Spain. Even in the UFC, he fights under the Georgian flag. Martinsexpress (talk) 17:51, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per MOS:NATIONALITY only list nationalities where subject has established themselves. And since Spain doesn't allow dual citizenship with Georgia, we just list him as Spanish. Nswix (talk) 17:59, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality

Some biased Spaniard who wants to appropriate other countries achievements keeps changing Georgian to Spanish. Merab Dvalisvhili is based in the US but that does not make him American. Ilia Topuria represents Georgia and he is Georgian. He officially represents Georgia in the UFC: https://www.espn.com/mma/fighter/_/id/4350812/ilia-topuria Thus, the the fighting community knows he is Georgian.

That's what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS:NATIONALITY says: "Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability" The fact that Ilia Topuria is Georgian is very relevant to his notability, as he represents Georgia in the UFC like the above source indicates, and the whole fighting community knows that he is Georgian. So in conclusion, according to MOS:NATIONALITY, he is Georgian. I cannot make this more clear. The editors need to stop these disruptive edits and blocking people who put down credible sources and correct information. This is nonsense. Caucasian Man (talk) 19:26, 12 February 2024 (UTC) Caucasian Man (talk) 19:39, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First of all this is Wikipedia and we edit as per Wikipedia guidelines and not otherwise and in regardless what the fighters/subject want to present a country/countries/whole world, (examples: Belal Muhammad is American in regardless how much he stated he represent Palestine, Aleksandar Rakić was born and notable in Austria, in regraless how much the editor and himself wants to represent Serbia, we put he is Austrian in Wikipedia and if when any sourced indicates Merab was an American when he was notable then we will change his article in Wikipedia that he is American) , we put the nationality when he was notable which is Spain as per MOS:NATIONALITY. By the way Spain does not have the treaty with Georgia to have dual citizenship. Pls read the message titled of this talk page "Citizenship". Cassiopeia talk 22:15, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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