Talk:Greeks in Albania

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Origins

@Khirurg @Alexikoua The disputed origin is not my claim, but a Minority Rights Group International one. The source i provided "Macedonia between Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian, and Serbian National Aspirations, 1870-1912" acknowledges Greece's attempts of hellenization of southern Albania: He also resented Greek attempts to Hellenize and thus separate the Albanian Orthodox population from the rest of the Albanians and Albania in order for Greece to annex Toskëria. Therefore the claim cannot be considered unfounded. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 00:58, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

That has nothing to do with what you are trying to add to the article. Khirurg (talk) 01:18, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

We need to follow wp:RS and use wp:ACADEMIC and wp:SECONDARY to back our claims. Minority Rights Group International isn't an academic institution.Alexikoua (talk) 03:42, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

@Alexikoua It doesn't have to be academic to be reliable. Anyway you could look this other two up:

1. Miranda Vickers, Balkans Series The Greek Minority in Albania – Current Tensions[1]: As with the population statistics, the origin of the Greek minority in Albania is bitterly disputed. During five centuries of Ottoman rule, there was no official distinction between Albania and Epirus. Although Greek historiography claims that ethnic Greeks settled in what is now southern Albania during the pre-Christian period, Albanian historians argue that southern Albania was largely inhabited by Illyrians and that during the 18th century, whilst under the effective control of Albanian feudal lords, a major influx of Greeks settled in the present day Gjirokaster district of southern Albania to work as agricultural labourers. Ottoman sources and accounts by English travellers suggest that during the early 19th century the Drin Valley was largely Albanian. The district of Himara, however, on the southern coast, appears to have always have had a Greek population. In the latter period of Ottoman rule, Himara enjoyed a considerable measure of practical independence from central authority
2. (for an ONG) Hart Laurie Kain, "Northern Epiros": The Greek Minority in Southern Albania[2]: Albanians argue that the present Greek minority is descended from poor sharecroppers who migrated in the nineteenth century to southern Albania to work for Albanian landowners. Greeks contend that the Greek population is indigenous, and that the elite - the educated, urban population - of Albania was always culturally Greek.

Even though the second one is written for an ONG, Hart Laurie Kain is an UCLA anthropologist. I even feel like you used some of his works in your past editing, if i'm not wrong. It seems clear that there is a dispute about Greeks of Albania origins. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 20:51, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

The mere fact that you insist on an "Origins" section is itself indicative of a larger problem. Such sections are by their very nature POV-magnets because they attract nationalists trying to prove that their group was "there first". There is a History section, and nothing more is needed. The fringe POV that Greeks in Albania suddenly appeared in the region in the 19th century is well-known as a fringe nationalist theory attempting to delegitimize the Greek minority, and if you read your own sources, you will see that neither of them endorse it, they merely report it as "Albanians argue...". I have yet to see a serious scholar actually endorse this theory. Khirurg (talk) 22:22, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Those opinions are good additions for articles such as 'Albanian nationalism' as the authors (Hart, Vickers) state that they came from what certain Albanian groups believe and lack scholarly basis. Alexikoua (talk) 04:35, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

@Khirurg @Alexikoua They do not endorse it, but neither did they discredit it. Surely they did not brand it "Nationalist fringe theory". The sentences' structure is: Greek historiography claims that [...] Albanian historian argue that [...]. and Albanians argue [...]. Greeks contend [...]. Even the Greeks' stance is merely reported in parallel to the Albanians' one. It doesn't have to be in an "Origin" section, but the information itself should be included. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 19:50, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

It's WP:FRINGE because it's not based on anything and not a single reputable historian endorses it. It's a classic example of nationalist historiography and it's not going anywhere in the article, whether an "Origins" section or elsewhere. Khirurg (talk) 21:40, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Greeks of Albania vs. Greeks in Albania

Wouldn't be it wiser to change the entire article name to Greeks of Albania? This seems to be a better reflection of what's discussed in the page, figures and sources and so on. 122.57.69.102 (talk) 00:50, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

For reasons of consistency "in" is preferred instead of "of" in such articles (Albanians in Serbia etc.). This change should better became a topic of a centralized discussion.Alexikoua (talk) 02:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Michele Greco da Valona cant be included in this list, per article some reference labels him Greek.Alexikoua (talk) 04:53, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Updated

The lead is used for updated figures, not for 20-year-old figures. I've reverted Khirurg.Alltan (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

The lede should present a balanced and complete summary of the article, per WP:LEDE. There is no requirement that states that the lede should only present current figures. Hiding the fact that that most Greeks from Albania have received Greek citizenship is a disservice to readers. Khirurg (talk) 18:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

How is this hidden? You can add it without mentioning old figures because these two facts are unconnected. If the lead mentions that "most Greeks from Albania have received Greek citizenship" then it should mention the fact that most Greeks from Albania actually live in Greece today. It's already a disservice to readers that this article tells them that "200,000 Greeks live in Albania and Greece". Alltan (talk) 18:45, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

The lede does state that 80% have migrated to Greece, so I don't know what you're complaining about. Now where is the wikipedia policy that states that the lede should present an unbalanced picture and withhold information from readers? Hiding the fact that most of the 189,000 have received Greek citizenship is a disservice to readers. Khirurg (talk) 18:57, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

The lead doesn't state anywhere that 80% have migrated to Greece. There are 13k people with special IDs. Why is it unbalanced to mention old figures in the article and not in the introduction?Alltan (talk) 19:06, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Because it presents an incomplete and unbalanced picture of the situation. There were 189,000 holders of these special IDs in 2001, 13,000 now, with the rest having received Greek citizenship in the meantime. That is the complete and balanced picture. The question is why you are so opposed to it to showing it to readers. Khirurg (talk) 19:14, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand what makes it unbalanced per se. The lead doesn't state that most Greeks from Albania live in Greece. If it did so, then it could say that most Greeks from Albania moved to Greece gradually and acquired special IDs and later Greek citizenship and about 13k remain today in Greece with special IDs.Alltan (talk) 20:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

It's unbalanced because it omits to mention that the 189,000 holders of the special ID now number 13,000 because most of them received Greek citizenship. Surely you are aware of this. Khirurg (talk) 20:44, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I proposed that without mentioning specific older figures it can still be written that most Greeks from Albania moved to Greece gradually and acquired special IDs and later Greek citizenship while about 13k remain today in Greece with special IDs.Alltan (talk) 22:34, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Omonoia census

I moved a sentence to Diaspora#Greece because it's not even discussed in the article itself and there's no corroboration that any "census" was carried by this organization.Alltan (talk) 20:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Pettifer and update

• Pettifer (2001): At the same time, however, apart from a few prominent figures, it appears that many ethnic Greeks did not feel secure with their cultural identity as Greeks within the party, often adopting Albanian names and severing any remaining links with the Orthodox Church during the period in which it remained legal was cited in the article as During communist rule many Greek members of Albanian political parties didn't feel secure, and had to adopt Albanian names, as well as cut off their ties with the Eastern Orthodox Church. Pettifer (2001) doesn't claim that Greek members of the Party of Labor had to adopt Albanian names but that they themselves felt insecure of their cultural identity and embraced another one which didn't have religious ties. These are two different subjects.
• According to Greek minority leaders, the existence of Greek communities outside the "minority zones" is even outright denied. I removed this sentence because it doesn't correspond to reality of 2023 or 2008. There are Greek schools in Himara and elsewhere. The biggest school in Greek is in fact in the capital of Albania and Greeks could and did register themselves as Greeks everywhere in Albania. There is genuinely no limit to what any community can do. If the article focused more on how the Greek community is organized, such issues would be more apparent.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:09, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Identity Cards for Co-Ethnics now uncommon

Worthy to note that special identity cards for co-ethnics are less common nowadays due to citizenship being granted to Albanians. Since the 1990s and early 2000s when it was common, citizenship laws have changed making it easier to naturalise and live and work in Greece without special identification. 122.57.69.122 (talk) 09:42, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

My contribution

A user left a comment on my talk page regarding my recent edits, which were made all at once. I chose to make the changes this way because there appears to be a conflict surrounding these pages. Additionally, non-established users and readers have shared this on social media groups, and some users on this page have been directly mentioned. Upon reading the article, I noticed several areas where the copywriting and word choices were inadequate. Furthermore, there were clear biases present in the text.

My edits were simple: I updated the copywriting and added more details. For instance, the article mentioned that only approximately 13,000 ethnic Greeks had special identity cards reserved for ethnic Greeks outside of Greece. This is correct, but it fails to acknowledge that 500,000 Albanians have taken Greek nationality, which the source mentions. Many of those individuals are likely to be among the initial 189,000 holders of the special identity cards issued in 2001, especially as the total number of Albanian nationals in Greece has not exceeded 500,000 by the sources readily available.

In relation to the Greeks page, as there is a linkage, many users, some of whom are active on this page, wanted to note that most ethnic Greeks have left Albania, causing their population to dwindle. My edits on this page also include this information, citing the Myria Georgiou source. I added this information to the demographic section because it is supported by other sources that confirm Greeks from Albania have been migrating to Greece since the 1990s.

I also felt it would be helpful to mention that special identity cards are provided prior to citizenship, and once citizenship is granted, they are no longer issued, renewed, or offered. These pieces of information provide a better understanding of the complexity of the topic of Greeks in and from Albania and help to neutralize the overall picture. Prior to my edits and those of others, it seemed to imply that identity cards were in some way fraudulent due to the ability to falsify documentation. Additionally, there was disregard for the statistics that Albanians of all ethnic backgrounds have acquired Greek citizenship in large numbers.

Finally, the previous version of the text implied that the Greek government still considers 300,000 Greeks to be in Albania. However, this is no longer the case and has not been supported by sources other than outdated ones.

I hope this provides a sufficient explanation. Rootcragsar (talk) 23:13, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Northern Epirus section

The article is titled Greeks in Albania and Northern Epirus is the most common name this group calls the region as such it makes sense to keep this head as the most representative one in this case. See for example Chams article and its Chameria section.Alexikoua (talk) 01:35, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Northern Epirus and Chameria are not the same. You've had such a discussion previously regarding the terms. Botushali (talk) 01:46, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Is that all you can present Northern Epirus and Chameria are not the same? without reasoning and explanation that's a simply a typical nationalist POV. You are in the wrong place for such declarations.Alexikoua (talk) 02:06, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: the article is titled Greeks in Albania. Northern Epirus is a geo-political & expansionist term which was never a geographical term unlike Chameria which is a historical, geographical term. The term Northern Epirus is embraced only by a minority of Greeks in Albania and it is not used officially by Greece. It will not be used as a neutral, geographical descriptor because it's not such a term. The change I introduced phrases the use of the term The Greek minority in Albania is concentrated in the south of the country, near the border with Greece. After 1912, in Greece part of this area became known as Northern Epirus. Your edit removed Kokolakis (2003) and Kallivretakis (1995) and re-introduced the WP:OFFTOPIC and inaccurate statement However, in more recent years the majority of emigrants holding Albanian citizenship in general dropped and many of them eventually returned from Greece to Albania. There has been no return to Albania from any country and the outmigration rate has only increased in the last 6 years.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:44, 11 July 2023 (UTC)