Talk:Collyridianism

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some recent Muslim-Christian religious discussions in reference to the Islamic concept of the Christian Trinity

The last paragraph has some problems:

The Collyridians have become of interest in some recent

when? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the 20th and 21st centuries (as opposed to more "classical" religious debates of the medieval or early modern periods). AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Muslim-Christian religious discussions in reference to the Islamic concept of the Christian Trinity.

what discussions? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some of the first hits from a Google search for "collyridian trinity":

The debate hinges on some verses in the Qur'an, primarily 5:73, 5:75, and 5:116 in the sura Al-Ma'ida, which have been taken to imply that Christians considered Mary part of the Trinity.

taken by whom? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Look at the above links. Some Christians debating Muslims assert that the Qur'an denounces a "wrong" Trinity (not the real Christian Trinity at all). AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This has never been a mainstream or widespread doctrine among Christian or quasi-Christian groups at any period of history,

This is a claim that is at the same time very bold and very vague. What are the specific criteria for being mainstream or widespread? What qualifies a group as Christian or quasi-Christian?? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted the addition of the "fact" tag because this article is not really the place to discuss and debate this at length -- however, the fact that it's necessary to delve into the obscure annals of heresiology (and pluck out a group about which rather little is known) in order to find any group which even partially APPROXIMATES the view that Mary, Jesus, and God form a Trinity (and of course we actually don't even know that the Collyridians had any concept of the Trinity at all, of course!) adequately indicates that this is indeed the case. AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

and has led to speculation that Muhammad was mistaken, perhaps confusing heretical Collyridian beliefs with those of orthodox Christianity.

Who is speculating this? Who is defining heresy and orthodoxy here? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Shamoun/quran_trinity.htm
The vast majority of Christian groups are "orthodox" in possessing some conception of the Trinity which does not include Mary. AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

However, there is no evidence that Collyridianism still existed in the 6th or 7th centuries A.D. (Muhammad's time).

OK, the reference dates the movement as 350–450, which might be enough to back up this claim.

Some reject the interpretation according to which the Qur'an is said to assert that Mary was part of the Trinity, as the relevant statements can be seen as emphasizing the purely human nature of Mary to reinforce the Islamic belief in the purely human nature of Jesus.

Who are these rejectors? — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Muslims who reject the assertions by some Christians that the Qur'an denounces a "wrong" Trinity (not the real Christian Trinity at all). For example, the authors of http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/marytrin.html are suspicious of such assertions (though they ultimately argue that it doesn't make much difference either way). AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And even if all that can be resolved, I'm not sure how relevant the whole thing really is. — The Storm Surfer 04:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As an ancient heretical group which has achieved some degree of prominence in two separate contexts (feminist spirituality and Christian-Muslim relations), it's certainly deserving of its own article! AnonMoos 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, by "the whole thing" I only intended to refer to that paragraph. Although on second thought I can see how without this paragraph the movement might not seem notable. I hope to look into your other responses soon; I'm sorry I haven't been very timely in this matter. — The Storm Surfer 20:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pagan influences

The Collyridians have been noted in this article for offering cakes to Mary. This ancient practice most likely has its roots in the cult of Ishtar. Ishtar was known as the Queen of heaven and was highly revered by the Babylonians. The offering of cakes as a form of devotion to her was common practice and this may have found its way into to some early sects of Christianity due to the similarities between Mary and Ishtar such as their divine relationship with the Godhead. Today this practice of devotion can still be seen in the Christian tradition of eating,'Hot Cross Buns' during the Easter(Ishtar)festival. Please read the 'Myths of Tammuz and Ishtar' for further reference. A reliable book for this information is called, 'Myths of Babylonia and Assyria', by Donald A. MacKenzie, [1915]. Jch777 (talk) 22:58, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I didn't see your comments previously. While there were almost certainly pagan influences on the Collyridians, our very sketchy knowledge of the group doesn't allow us to trace such influences in any detail -- and the fact that Collyridians were pagan influenced doesn't mean that mainstream Christians were also significantly pagan influenced in their theological doctrines. Also, there is no etymological linguistic relationship between the words Ishtar and Easter (see previous discussions at Talk:Ishtar). AnonMoos (talk) 08:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Heresy number

Since our only knowledge of this heresy is from the Panarion, it would be nice to know what heresy number is ascribed to this cult. While on the topic of primary references, it would also be nice to know what verses of the Septuagint mention the relevant collyrides. Rwflammang (talk) 14:09, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to this page, the word κολλυρις is at "LXX 2 Ki.6.19, v.l. 13.6". AnonMoos (talk) 00:30, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!

I gather from here that the heresy number is 79. Rwflammang (talk) 02:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Collyridianism in Christian–Muslim dialogue para moved to Talk

This looks like ^{[original research?]}

START

The Collyridians have become of interest in some recent Christian–Muslim religious discussions in reference to the Islamic concept of the Christian Trinity. The debate hinges on some verses in the Qur'an, primarily ^{[Quran 5:73]}, ^{[Quran 5:75]}, and ^{[Quran 5:116]} in the sura Al-Ma'ida, which have been taken to imply that Muhammad believed that Christians considered Mary part of the Trinity. This idea has never been part of mainstream Christian doctrine, and is not clearly and unambiguously attested among any ancient Christian group (including the Collyridians). But there has been some modern speculation that Muhammad might have confused heretical Collyridian beliefs with those of orthodox Christianity. There is no evidence that Collyridianism still existed in Muhammad's time (the 6th and 7th centuries AD), but perhaps the idea of the divinity of Mary might have been associated with Christian belief in Arabia because of the heritage of the Collyridian heresy. Some scholars reject the interpretation according to which the Qur'an is said to assert that Mary was part of the Trinity, since the relevant statements can be seen as emphasizing the purely human nature of Mary to reinforce the Islamic belief in the purely human nature of Jesus, whilst also serving as a general restatement of the central Islamic doctrine of Tawhid, the pure oneness of God.

END

Sorry. If someone can provide WP:RS some of it can go back in the article. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:14, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's a basic summary of arguments such as those linked to in the first section of this talk page above, and the reason why this article is linked from Islamic view of the Trinity (which you should also look at). I'm far from convinced that your action is ultimately useful for article improvement (as opposed to simply adding a "citation needed" request). AnonMoos (talk) 15:24, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No courtesy of a reply after three days, and the original action seems to have been largely a misconception based on not looking at the Islamic view of the Trinity article, therefore restoring. There are references given at Islamic view of the Trinity, but I would not feel comfortable mechanically copying over citations based on a source I haven't personally seen from one article to the other. I may go to the local university library and see if the Encyclopaedia of Islam has anything... AnonMoos (talk) 07:17, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just a proof Muhammad didn't understand nothing about christianity

He don't understand the expression "word of God", don't understand the Jewish doctrine, and don't understand the Christian concept of trinity. I don't understand why a lot of muslims follow him. How can he criticize doctrines he didn't understand or deform. -- 13:07, 21 November 2014‎ 2a01:e35:8a8d:fe80:d07e:bfd5:2ecf:6ab0

That's certainly one common Christian view -- and it's pretty clear that Muhammad had no access to any written Bible translations in Arabic, and derived all his knowledge of Judaism and Christianity from talking with Christians and Jews (and apparently Samaritans) who were not always the most knowledgeable and orthodox in their own religions, and who did not strictly distinguish the Bible from post-Biblical folklore. However, your comments cannot be included in the article as they stand (nor can the common Muslim view that anything in Christian or Jewish scriptures which contradicts anything said by Muhammad is therefore ipso facto "corrupted" be presented in a Wikipedia article as uncontroverted fact)... AnonMoos (talk) 09:37, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Worship Mary (proposed edits to the article)

The worship of Mary in different ages

In early Christianity

George Sale in the preliminary discourse to his translation of The Koran says:

But, to be more particular as to the nation we are now writing of, Arabia was of old famous for heresies; which might be in some measure attributed to the liberty and independency of the tribes. Some of the Christians of that nation believed the soul died with the body, and was to be raised again with it at the last day: these Origen is said to have convinced. Among the Arabs it was that the heresies of Ebion, Beryllus, and the Nazareans, and also that of the Collyridians, were broached, or at least propagated; the latter introduced the Virgin Mary for God, or worshipped her as such offering her a sort of twisted cake called collyris, This notion of the divinity of the Virgin Mary was also believed by some at the Council of Nice, who said there were two gods besides the Father viz. Christ and the virgin Mary, and were thence named Mariamites. Others imagined her to be exempt from humanity, and deified; which goes but little beyond the popish superstition in calling her the complement of the Trinity, as if it were imperfect without her. This foolish imagination is justly condemned in the Koran as idolatrous, and gave a handle to Mohammed to attack the Trinity itself.

In the era of the Prophet Muhammad

Arab sources indicate that Arabs knew Jesus and Mary and knew that there was a Christian sect that worshiped them, in books on the interpretation of verses of the Qur'an there are Many Hadiths indicate when the Prophet Mohammed was in Mecca before the migration to Medina and when the verse Quran 21:98 was revealed . which says in abbreviation that the polytheists and the inanimate objects that you worship will be the fuel for Hell. This verse caused some men of Quraish tribe to object it and the objection was that the Jews worship Uzair and that the Christians worship Jesus and Mary and that they are worship the angels (Some of them said that the Banu Malih worship angels and Banu Malih is a large family in Quraish) and all of these people are righteous. Are they also? In hell ,to be the Prophet Muhammad's response that the verse said (m+a+) Which is used for inanimate objects..

Rakusiyya sect

The Rakusiyya (الركوسية) sect is an Arab Christian sect that shares the belief with Sabellianism sect that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one person,about Mary they believe that when Allah united with Mary when she conceived her with the Word, Mary also became godThe sect later became extinct because the number of followers of the Kanu sect was very small and because they converted to Islam.

In the modern age

The University of Dayton announced on its website the emergence of a new heresy called Mary-is-God-Catholic-Movement who believed that Mary is god Hzea (talk) 08:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure that you're very well intentioned, but as I previously pointed out, George Sale died in 1736, so it's hard to say that he's authoritative now (and his anti-Catholic remarks don't add anything useful). Some of your other subsections referenced websites of apparently dubious reliability; you've left those out above, but that means the subsections are now unreferenced. If the University of Dayton Goddess movement enthusiasts don't call themselves Collyridians, or mention Collyridians, then it might be "Original Synthesis" on our part to make such a connnection. Etc etc... AnonMoos (talk) 05:39, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but I can add , in the era of the Prophet Muhammad and In the modern age? Hzea (talk) 06:05, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that George Sale is a valid authority on much of anything after 500 years. AnonMoos (talk) 19:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first is from a well-known Arabic website, while the second is from a university Hzea (talk) 06:07, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You gave basically bare URLs, without author and title info, so making them hard to evaluate. AnonMoos (talk) 19:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

good subject of an article

I see that the page on the worship of Mary is good subject of an article, Because there is a relationship in the history of the doctrine of this sect Hzea (talk) 08:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, relatively little is known about this group, and their connection with the Qur'an is speculation (though speculation by reputable scholars going back many years). AnonMoos (talk) 05:20, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Christian women's virgins"

What does that have to do with worship of Mary? Also, the English is poor. AnonMoos (talk) 19:57, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

it is written, “fasting is for the Virgin God” meaning Mary, is an indication that they believe that Mary is a god Hzea (talk) 21:05, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That really doesn't make any logical sense. AnonMoos (talk) 22:48, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

reverting again out of necessity

I'm sorry / not sorry, but while you seem to be passionate about the subject, your additions are in poor English, and either don't have acceptable sources, or have a very unclear connection to Collyridianism. What the heck does Nestorianism have to do with Collyridianism? And the fasting thing doesn't make much sense, at least in the way that you've presented it here. AnonMoos (talk) 21:46, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]