This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Television, a collaborative effort to develop and improve Wikipedia articles about television programs. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page where you can join the discussion.
To improve this article, please refer to the style guidelines for the type of work.TelevisionWikipedia:WikiProject TelevisionTemplate:WikiProject Televisiontelevision articles
The series overview table includes an end date for season 2, based on the episode listing at this page. However, WP:SYNTH says that sources must explicitly support claims, and the source does not. It merely lists episode air dates, with 10 of the dates assigned to "TBA" episodes. Dates are always subject to change. Indeed, WP:CRYSTAL says Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place. We normally provide episode listings where an episode title has a press release for a certain date with some credibility, but when we have no episode title the date can only be taken as tentative, especially when the date is 3 months away. It is therefore both in the realm of WP:SYNTH and WP:CRYSTAL to assume that a date 3 months away is "definite". I removed the season 2 end date twice, but it was reverted both times,[1][2] so it is now tagged with {{Synthesis-inline}}. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:05, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's in the source though, it says "(#210)" which is the finale. The fact that the episodes titles are unknown are irrelevant, because we don't need episode titles to assign dates to them. If the source simply listed "TBA" with no episode numbers (which Futon does when they don't know what episode is airing in that timeslot, it could be a repeat, etc.) then I would agree it's original research, but it's not in this case, because the episode numbers are listed. What's the trouble though? What do you need that the source isn't providing? I don't understand. Drovethrughosts (talk) 13:22, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter that the list shows "(#210)". Dates can change, especially so far in advance. We see that all the time. Look at Supergirl as a recent example.[3] "Livewire" was rescheduled with days notice. In 2011 The Playboy Club was pulled with less than a day's notice. We can't even trust episode schedules where there has been a press release for a specific, named episode. When we only have a date, no title and no press release for the episode, we have no credible source and shouldn't be listing episodes, let alone claiming a season end date. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, any TV episode can conceivably be rescheduled. When that happens, it doesn't mean that the original schedule information was wrong, or should have been suppressed. Since this can happen regardless of whether an episode has a title, press release, etc., I don't see how that really applies here. I don't know what the episode title has to do with the validity of the air date, and we have a source that says when episode 10 airs. --SubSeven (talk) 17:53, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, it says that #210 airs. That may not be epsidoe 10. As I've already noted above, WP:SYNTH requires that sources explicitly support claims. That means we need a source that says the finale (not episode 10) will definitely air on that date. The link we have at the moment merely projects that 10 episodes will air from one date to another and gives them numbers. It doesn't give them titles, or anything else, so it's not a strong source and definitely does not explicitly state that "the finale" will air on a particular date. It is right in the realm of WP:CRYSTAL and therefore should be suppressed as it violates both WP:SYNTH and WP:CRYSTAL. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:15, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@AussieLegend: I'm not trying to be rude here, but what exactly are you not getting? I agree with @Drovethrughosts: and @SubSeven: 100% on this matter. You are saying there is an "improper synthesis" which there is definitely NOT. Many sources claim that the the season is 10 episodes long, so therefore, the 10th episode is the finale. <-- what part of that doesn't make sense?? The Futon Critic listings are in essence a press release because they come from the network themselves. If AMC is saying that the 10th episode airs on April 18, and we know that the season is 10 episodes long, I really don't understand why April 18 can't be listed as the finale date. You listed 2 examples of shows (Supergirl and The Playboy Club) whose airdates got changed, but what about the 1000+ whose airdates haven't been changed?? I don't think WP: SYNTH applies at all here, and even WP: CRYSTAL is a stretch. As of right now, the finale is going to air on April 18 (THAT IS JUST A FACT), so if in the near future that changes, it is very easy to go back into the series overview table and make the correction. All of your "what ifs?" rally aren't all that helpful, so I'm going to remove the "improper synthesis" tag and will continue doing so every time I see it. The majority of people in this discussion (3-1) feel that April 18 is the proper finale date, so please respect that decision. Thanks. Rswallis10 (talk) 03:42, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
but what exactly are you not getting? What am I not getting? I could ask the same as I have already explained the problems above.
Many sources claim that the the season is 10 episodes long, so therefore, the 10th episode is the finale. - That's not the issue as explained above. Sources must explicitly support claims - the source needs to say the final episode will air on that date. The only source used is simply a list of proposed air dates with no actual episode details included, other than some codes. Also as explained above WP:CRYSTAL says Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place. These dates, the last of which is 3 months away, are subject to change - that happens all the time, so the dates can't be taken to be definite. The claimed end date therefor fails both WP:SYNTH and WP:CRYSTAL.
As of right now, the finale is going to air on April 18 (THAT IS JUST A FACT) - No, as of right now the finale is only scheduled to air on that date. It's not a fact until it happens. We've had many discussions at WT:TV anmd MOS:TV about this sort of thing.
I'm going to remove the "improper synthesis" tag and will continue doing so every time I see it - If you intend violating policy the appropriate action will be taken. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:55, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@AussieLegend: The season is 10 episodes long, the 10th episode airs on April 18 ACCORDING TO AMC! What is not making sense?? If the airdate is changed in the future (which is unlikely), then feel free to change it at that point. As of right now, AMC confirms that April 18 is the finale date, and THIS ACTUALLY IS A FACT. Why are you being so bureaucratic? Rswallis10 (talk) 04:20, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Again, per WP:CRYSTAL, Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place. It's really not that hard to understand. We have an exception for episodes that will soon be airing and for which there are multiple reliable sources, such as press releases, supporting a soon-to-be-aired episode, but 3 months away is not in that group. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:27, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Rswallis10: I've already said this on your talk page but it seems necessary to say it here too, for the benefit of others. Regarding this edit summary, decisions are based on WP:CONSENSUS, not "majority rules" and there is no excuse for edit-warring. You need to stop edit-warring and explain, with reference to policy, how the content does not violate WP:SYNTH, WP:OR, WP:SPS, WP:TWEET etc. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:36, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The episode descriptions are very well done. Concise and clear. But I just wanted to bring up a point that comes up every now and then and this summary has a good example. The article states that young Jimmy Disillusioned by his father's gullibility begins to take money from the cash register. Now, once the grifter leaves there is no dialogue so we have no clue as to what Jimmy is thinking before he takes the $8. We don't really know if the look we see on his face is disillusionment. He pauses, looks forlorn or determined or disappointed or disillusioned, toward the door and takes the money. I think he says to himself, "I might as well get the money if my Dad is gonna continue to be a patsy for every grifter that comes in the store." My point is that we don't know which it is. We can only guess. We may be right, we may be wrong. Both-- what currently exists in the summary or my guess of "my Dads a sap!" -- have a valid ring to them. I've made some changes before, earlier in the season when I thought the WP editor was jumping to conclusions (the on/off light switch in Jimmy's new office at D&M) and committing the articles description to what was basically supposition. I know its a subtle point but I don't think we should guess what a character is thinking unless the character says, "This is what I was just thinking." Buster Seven Talk08:16, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
