Talk:Devizes Plot

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A fact from Devizes Plot appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 13 June 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that if the Devizes Plot had been successful, 7,000 German prisoners of war would have escaped and attacked RAF Yatesbury?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/June. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Devizes Plot.

Wikipedia

More Sources

If anyone has access to the following:

The London Cage (by Scotland), though note what's already said in the literature section by Normann
The London Cage (by Helen Fry)
Newspapers covering the plot at the time, in particular there was apparently significant coverage of the trial of Rosterg's murderers according to De Normann ( [1] etc)

Please let me know or expand the article with them. Thanks, Pahunkat (talk) 21:46, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also "The March on London" by Charles Whiting (this one is on openlib), Hitler's hangmen by Gerwarth might have something. Pahunkat (talk) 08:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Good day! Thank you for contributing to Wikipedia by writing this article. I have marked the article as reviewed. Have a wonderful and blessed day for you and your family!

✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 08:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 20:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... that if the Devizes Plot had been successful, 7,000 German prisoners of war would have escaped and attacked RAF Yatesbury? Source: https://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/headlines/nostalgia/2386661.grisly-tale-of-revenge/ , Whiting, The March on London, p. 72, 177
- ALT1: ... that the failure of the Devizes Plot led to the lynching of a German prisoner of war, who was incorrectly accused of being an informant? Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/dec/23/secondworldwar.comment
- ALT2: ... that two Americans were awarded the Bronze Star Medal for uncovering the Devizes Plot? Source: De Normann, For Führer and Fatherland, p.98
- Reviewed:
- Comment: This article was a pain to write thanks to sources managing to contradict each other in various ways. These three hooks seem relatively uncontested. All book sources are available on the open library for verification.

Moved to mainspace by Pahunkat (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

Pahunkat (talk) 20:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Approved ALT0–2: Article is new enough, long enough, well-cited to reliable sources, presentable, and with no policy issues detected (neutrality, BLP, copyvio). Non-boldlinked articles in hooks also look presentable, with no maintenance banners. Hooks are formatted and of good length, with hook facts cited in article. Verified hook fact for ALT0, ALT1. AGF for ALT2 (pages 88–101 of De Normann not available at open library). QPQ waived. I feel that ALT0 is the most interesting of the three. – Reidgreg (talk) 15:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

British POW case

More context on this use by the Germans to support an affirmative defense would be appreciated. Was it decided that the circumstances were substantially different or did the British simply hang the Germans for the same crime because they weren't their own people? 100.40.29.79 (talk) 01:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’ll have a look in a bit, De Normann’s coverage of the trial was pretty comprehensive if I remember correctly so hopefully there’ll be something. Pahunkat (talk) 01:44, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

100.40.29.79, done here ft. Whiting and Campbell. Pahunkat (talk) 08:44, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

discrepancy

in the 'Lynching of Wolfgang Rosterg' section it states he was beaten to death, but in the following section, Conviction of murderers, it states 'An autopsy of Rosterg's body determined that he had died of strangulation.' Potholehotline (talk) 03:40, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Potholehotline, I've tried to clarify that section. Sources state death occurred due to strangulation but it was inconsistent with that due to hanging. Pahunkat (talk) 07:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Pahunkat thanks for getting back on this so quickly, maybe that datum could be put into the article. this world can throw some weird ones at us, strangulation via being beaten...

and thanks for your hard work on the article Potholehotline (talk) 17:17, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Potholehotline, it's all very confusing. When I started writing the article I was going off the Guardian/Gazette and Herald sources which were generally in agreement with each other, then in came De Normann which straight up contradicted many of the things I had already written.

What seems to be agreed is that Rosterg was already dead by the time he was hung up in the toilets. p.118 of De Normann states Rosterg was "beaten to death", which is where my initial statement in the article on being beaten to death came from. But it later goes on to quote one of the German PoWs who witnessed the ordeal saying he was "strangled with a rope", and a medical witness in the trial stating the beatings "were not serious enough to cause death". From my own interpretation of the three book sources sources I'd propose this -

It's generally agreed that Rosterg already had a noose around his neck when he was dragged from Hut 4 towards the toilets. Whiting gives a pretty vivid, probably over-emphasised depiction of this (p.133, The March on London), and it certainly reads like he was being strangled then ("The rope dug deeper into his neck. His tounge came out. His eyes popped"). I'd argue that, given the autopsy result was he died to strangulation (Campbell p.87, Normann p.151), it would make the most sense for him to have been strangled when he was being dragged to the toilets with the rope. So in summary, you are likely right to point out a discrepancy. I don't think he was beaten to death which led to strangulation, it seems more that he was dragged on the ground with a rope about his neck which caused strangulation.

No source explicitly states this connection, so it would be original research for me to put this opinion in the article. I'll see what I can do to improve the wording of the section though. Pahunkat (talk) 18:48, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See here for the changes I've made. Pahunkat (talk) 18:56, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Pahunkat thanks for doing what you could to clarify a particularly unclear event. the whole thing reminds me that the word 'history' refers to two distinct concepts; that which has happened, and what we know about what has happened. as a kid i had a hard time wrapping my head around the word 'prehistoric', thinking it referred to what happened before anything happened. again, thanks for the time and effort, your latest edit definitely helps one understand what (might have) happened Potholehotline (talk) 20:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]