Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Brochfael ap Meurig/archive1

Brochfael ap Meurig

Featured article candidates/Brochfael ap Meurig/archive1

Nominator(s): Dudley Miles (talk) 19:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Brochfael was king of Gwent in south-east Wales in the late ninth and early tenth centuries. He is chiefly known for having been one of the Welsh kings who submitted to the lordship of Alfred the Great in order to get protection from the oppression of Æthelred, Lord of the Mercians. Brochfael was involved in a number of disputes with Bishop Cyfeilliog, who is an FAC below, and was once threatened with excommunication for insulting the bishop. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Is there no image of the subject that could be included?

I cannot find one. Dudley Miles (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest expanding the alt text

I have previously made alt text a short summary and this has always passed FAC, but recently an editor has been deleting alt texts in my FACs on the ground that it duplicates the label, and another editor commented that the alt text should be a place marker as it only prevents readers from seeing the file name instead of the label. I see from Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Alternative text for images that this is incorrect, so I have gone back to make alt text a short summary. OK now? Dudley Miles (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Medieval_south-east_Wales_map_Lloyd.jpg is tagged as life+100, but gives an author date of death less than 100 years ago. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:37, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to PD-old-70-1923. OK? Dudley Miles (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:54, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Nikkimaria. Replies above. Dudley Miles (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

source review from sawyer777

yay, a medieval Wales FAC!! one of my favorite topics. i'll get to this in the next few days. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 08:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Sawyer777. There is another one below at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cyfeilliog/archive1! Dudley Miles (talk) 08:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

aye, i'll give it a review if i've got the time and/or it stalls out & needs more feedback. :) ... sawyer * he/they * talk 08:28, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

alright, let's get to it.

in the publishing location, the cities don't need ", UK" (or NY, for Ithaca) after them - there's no ambiguity about which London or Cardiff is being referred to. also, for Oxford University Press, having the location is a bit redundant as it's right in the name. not really a big deal though. overall, citation formatting & consistency is great.
no concerns about reliability; Iolo is nowhere to be found, and all of the sources are from solid academic publishers and authors. i see only three old sources, Haddan & Stubbs 1869, Evans & Rhys 1893, and Lloyd 1911, which are used perfectly reasonably.

small spot-check (ref numbers as of this revision):

ref 8 (a & b): good
ref 10: good
ref 15: good
ref 18: checked Charles-Edwards and Davies, both check out
ref 25: good

no significant issues i could find. support on sourcing. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 10:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

Could "charter" be linked?

Linked to charter. The article on Anglo-Saxon charters is much morre informative, but the title would confuse people. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"in order to get protection". 'in order to gain protection' sounds a little more encyclopediac to my ear.

Done. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Brochfael's acceded to the throne" ?

Fixed. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"and submitted to the West Saxon king." And who might this be? They don't seem to have been previously mentioned.

Clarified that Alfred the Great was the West Saxon king. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"and thus in an important step towards the unity of England." What unity of England? I think this needs unpacking a little further.

Deleted as too complex and speculative. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest linking landed estates.

Done. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:30, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Gog. Replies above. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC

You wait years for an early medieval Wales FAC, and then...

Mercia claimed dominion over Wales: in the body, we've only said most of. How much are we talking here?
in order to gain protection from the oppression of Æthelred, Lord of the Mercians: is oppression the right NPOV word here, or are we unwittingly parroting their/Alfred's spin on the situation? From what comes later, it sounds like the Ur-source here is Asser, who isn't exactly a neutral.
Given the chronological discussions about Gwent vs Glywysing in the body, I'd suggest putting a more concrete date on the map than just "early medieval".
defeated the Vikings: "the Vikings" weren't (and aren't seen in scholarship) as a single group of people under that name -- we do, however, have the term "Great Heathen Army" for the force that Alfred defeated. Better to use that with some explanation?
Ceolwulf's successor as ruler of Mercia, Æthelred, Lord of the Mercians at the Battle of the Conwy: needs a comma after Mercians, but consider reworking to streamline the syntax a bit.
Can we give any indication of the reasoning and the whys behind the different dates for Brochfael's accession?
I would give a brief introduction, at least by approximate date, to the Book of Llandaff and the Life of King Alfred.
Ffernfael may have been subordinate to Brochfael: may therefore? I think we need something to tie the logic of this sentence into the previous one.
Brochfael's father Meurig gave grants in both territories, and Charles-Edwards and Davies think that he ruled them both as king of Glywysing: we've demoted the dissenting view into a footnote. I know it's two against one, but WP:DUEWEIGHT is not a vote -- do we have a separate good reason to think Sims-Williams is wrong? If not, I think we need to give the two sides equal billing.
Æthelred's defeat at the Conwy: suggest reminding us of the date, particularly for readers who won't go through the article top-to-bottom.
Brochfael and Ffernfael were joint kings of Gwent, and their cousin Hywel ap Rhys was King of Glywysing: this isn't wrong, per the MoS, but the capital on the second king reads oddly, and is inconsistent with how we've approached the same problem in the first sentence (Brochfael ap Meurig was king of Gwent in south-east Wales.. Would suggest decapitalising.
three modii (about 120 acres (50 hectares)) of land: you can avoid the awkward double brackets by replacing the outer set with dashes. This comes up twice.
Latin text should be in lang templates, which will do the italics for you.
Quotations that are put into italics for language reasons don't then have quotation marks around them (MOS:"?)
Manuscript D of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle : this sounds as if we expect readers to know it already. Suggest "One [date?] manuscript of the ASC, known as Manuscript D, states..." Do the others omit this bit, though? That might be cause for concern?
She died in around 910: just around 910 is more concise and, I think, more natural English.
King of the people of Gwent: definitely needs a decap of king per MOS:PEOPLETITLES.
he may have been the father of Gwriad ap Brochfael: and who was he?
Davies seems to argue with herself, and give two different dates (and levels of confidence) on Meurig's reign. Why have we given one of those in the body text (implicitly endorsing it) and the other as a footnote?

As with the last one, I enjoyed reading this -- a great job of reconstructing a life where the sources clearly make it difficult to know much for certain. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:36, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]