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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Pan Dan (talk | contribs) at 12:48, 9 July 2007 (→‎[[Democide]]: clarification on NPOV). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Democide

Democide (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Democide is a neologism

According to Webster's dictionary [1], the American Heritage dictionary [2], and dictionary.com [3] , democide is not an established word in the english language. Using Neologisms certainly violates Wikipedia's Avoid Neologisms guideline. This article should be a candidate for speedy deletion. I have included the relevant sections of the guideline:

Neologism as defined from Wikipedia's Avoid Neologisms

Neologisms are words and terms that have recently been coined, generally do not appear in any dictionary, but may be used widely or within certain communities.

Why Wikipedia prohibits using neologisms

Generally speaking, neologisms should be avoided in articles because they may not be well understood, may not be clearly definable, and may even have different meanings to different people. Determining which meaning is the true meaning is original research—we don't do that here at Wikipedia. [4]

From the Guideline: Why this article qualifies

Some neologisms and protologisms can be in frequent use and it may be possible to pull together many facts about a particular term and show evidence of its usage on the Internet or even in larger society. It may be natural, then, to feel that Wikipedia should have a page devoted to this new term, but this is not always the case. There are several reasons why articles on (or titled with) neologisms may not be appropriate:

  • The first is that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, and so articles simply attempting to define a neologism are inappropriate.
  • The second reason is that articles on neologisms frequently attempt to track the emergence and use of the term as observed in communities of interest or on the internet—without attributing these claims to reliable secondary sources. If the article is not verifiable (see Reliable sources for neologisms, below) then it constitutes analysis, synthesis and original research and consequently cannot be accepted by Wikipedia. This is true even though there may be many examples of the term in use.

In many cases, articles on neologisms get deleted (either via proposed deletion or articles for deletion). Articles on protologisms are almost always deleted as these articles are often created in an attempt to use Wikipedia to increase usage of the term.

As Wiktionary's inclusion criteria differ from Wikipedia's, that project may cover neologisms that Wikipedia cannot accept. If you are interested in writing an article on a neologism, you may wish to contribute it to that project instead.

Abe Froman 16:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please keep this civil. Please point out the cite to a standard American dictionary that defines Democide. The link given to claim "many" scholars use this neologism turns up four unique scholars, other than the author himself. [7] This is hardly evidence of widespread acceptance. Throwing spaghetti links onto the internet does not a new word make. Abe Froman 21:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding dictionaries, see above. Anyone can see by going beyond the first page of the Google Scholar search that the 400 academic works have been written by many more scholars.Ultramarine 21:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Where are these alleged studies? Like a link to a dictionary that defines 'democide', supporting citations are lacking. Abe Froman 21:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding dictionaries, see above. Anyone can examine the authors of the 400 academic works[8] and see that there are more authors than your claimed five. The sidebar is not a complete list, on the next page there are authors not on the list, ED Richter being one example.Ultramarine 22:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Key to WP:CITE is "saying where you got it." This article does not even meet WP:CITE, as it uses intermediate link farms generated from Google as its authoritative citation. Abe Froman 22:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Using Google Hits as an argument against deletion is on thelist of "Arguments to Avoid" in deletion cases. Google hits is not a valid yardstick to use for judging neologisms like this one. Abe Froman 22:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Google Scholar is not ordinary Google. Scholarly sources are the most reliable sources available and 400 with many different authors have used and discussed the term.Ultramarine 22:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The arguments and cites using Google Scholar, a search engine, fits the definition of Wikipedia:Search engine test. Wikipedia:Search engine test even includes a caution on using Google Scholar. We are on very uncertain ground. Abe Froman 22:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Now there are claims Google is not google? Abe Froman 22:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just because a term is used does not make it a general term, or even a word. The link given to claim "many" scholars use this neologism turns up four unique scholars, other than the author himself. [9] This is hardly evidence of widespread acceptance. Using Google Hits as an argument against deletion is on the list of "Arguments to Avoid" in deletion cases. Google Scholar hits is not a valid yardstick to use for judging neologisms like this one. Abe Froman 21:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep, passes WP:RS, verifiable term. Ten Pound Hammer • (((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps))) 19:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It appears to me that Ultramarine and TDC's suggestions of bad faith are due to their own misunderstanding of what Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms means. The sausage king of Chicago Abe Froman is, of course, right that "democide" is a neologism whose use should be avoided on Wikipedia, especially as a pagename. The Google hits provided above show only that the term is used, not, as Gordon suggests, that there are secondary sources about the term.

    From looking through the Google scholar hits, I gather that "democide" loosely means the killing of people by their own government as used here for example, though it's more precisely defined by Rummel himself. The multitude of Google hits are, again, not about the term itself. But they are about the general concept of the killing by a government of its own people. The Wikipedia article should focus on that concept, not on Rummel's coinage of the term. The article should be renamed to Killing by a government of its people, or something less unwieldy, per Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms. The article should also be refactored to include other scholarly work on such killing, not just Rummel's, per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Pan Dan 19:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is bad faith, as the only reason it wqas nominated was to support as set of tenidtious edits on another article. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Many of the Google scholar works discuss the term itself, such as Rummel's own academic works published in academic press, and also other studies discussing the concepts and definitions of genocide and democide. The article has material from other authors than Rummel. The first table is based on a study by Barbara Harff.Ultramarine 20:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The link given to claim "many" scholars use this neologism turns up four unique scholars, other than the author himself. [10] This is hardly evidence of widespread acceptance. Using Google Hits as an argument against deletion is on the list of "Arguments to Avoid" in deletion cases. Google Scholar hits are not a valid yardstick to use for judging neologisms like this one. Abe Froman 21:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone can examine the authors of the 400 academic works[11] and see that there are more authors than your claimed five. The sidebar is not a complete list, on the next page there are authors not on the list, ED Richter being one example.Google Scholar is not ordinary Google. Scholarly sources are the most reliable sources available and 400 with many different authors have used and discussed the term.Ultramarine 22:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The arguments and cites using Google Scholar, a search engine, fits the definition of Wikipedia:Search engine test. Wikipedia:Search engine test even includes a caution on using Google Scholar. We are on very uncertain ground. Abe Froman 22:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A search enginge for scholarly sources, the most reliable available, is different from one going through all the web. The only caution against Google Scholar is that "Google Scholar should rarely be used as proof of non-notability" since it may miss material not available in online journals. That is not the issue here, Google Scholar has found many 400 academic works, so if it have missed some academic works that are not available online, these would only makes the notability stronger.Ultramarine 22:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it says clearly at the top of the article you keep referencing "This is an essay. It is not a policy or guideline; it merely reflects some opinions of its author(s)." It isn't a policy or guidline therefore you cannot cite this for deletion. You're fighting a one man battle.
  • keep as per the preponderance (existence) of secondary sources that imply verifiability; the article itself needs more of these cited, however.Tsunade 20:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please point out the cite to a standard American dictionary that defines Democide. Abe Froman 21:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is that so. Please point out the cite to a standard American dictionary that defines Democide. Abe Froman 21:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Spurious argument, and a common misunderstanding of how linguistics works. Words are not defined by their presence/absence in a dictionary, because there's invariably a time lag before dictionaries document a word - maybe years after it is widespread in published text. Gordonofcartoon 23:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep It is necessary in this day and age to define what is happening in other countries. Read the article "avoid neologisms" - it doesn't say that an article with a neologism in it should be considered for "speedy deletion" as you call it. It says that neologisms should be avoided WHERE POSSIBLE. And of course, an AMERICAN dictionary would have nothing democide. The very idea of wikipedia is to be uncensored and provide the public with information. Just because this term isn't written on a manuscript, doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. A book written in 1987 is hardly new as well. Rich
It seems this is just one man against everyone else. one man thinks his voice is greater than everyone else's. It says avoid using neologisms as it may be confusing for the reader. There is nothing confusing in this article. It has set out a complete definition for the word and why this word needs to be defined. Therefore I say keep and stop this one man from having so much power!!!
Did you notice that all of those books are written, in part or whole, by the original coiner of the neologism? Abe Froman 23:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Naturally, on the first page, the original coiner of the phrase would appear most frequently. But check the subsequent page. And the others. rich
Here is a good reference that both uses and describes it. Gordonofcartoon 23:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term—not books and papers that use the term." The number of sources available about this term clearly qualifies the article. - Merzbow 04:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, excellent treatment of a term that is promoted by a small group of scholars and has been increasingly accepted for wider use. Notability is established, and the origins are discussed neutrally such that we are only describing an academic term. --Dhartung | Talk 06:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • WP:NPOV doesn't just mean that the tone of an article should be neutral. It also means (perhaps more fundamentally) that the article should represent all points of view from reliable sources on the topic. From Google scholar, it appears that the amount of source material that discusses the concept of killing by a government totally dwarfs the amount of source material (independent of Rummel) that discusses the term "democide." For this reason it would be much more reasonable to have a Wikipedia article on the concept than the term. The article already is mostly about the concept, not the term--but it gives undue weight to Rummel's work on the concept. Finally, the article's conclusion in the first paragraph that the term "has found currency among other scholars" is precisely the kind of original research that is permitted (and scrutinized) on Wiktionary but not on Wikipedia. Pan Dan 12:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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