Talk:Korean War

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Archive: Chinese Casualties

Infobox montage

I designed a new one but I'm not sure if you will like, I am open to improvements

File:Korean War Montage.JPG

Montage by Parsecboy

Montage by me

Bleh999 16:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

It's better than the current one with one korean civilian.But your version include one pic of chinese or north korean POW,it's biased,not only there were chinese or north korean POW but also the american and south korean one.I found you are obsessed with the pic depicting dead chinese soldiers or surrendered one.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 17:28, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, because the pic of the Chinese TAKING prisoners is not biased. Yeah. Jesus Christ, Ksyrie. Stop obsessing. --HanzoHattori 17:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so,User:Bleh once pose a second dead soldier pic [[1]] and [[2]].It's really hard for me to believe the good faith.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 17:44, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

GOD. As it goes and goes, I've got an urge to post the pictures of a dead Chinese soldiers everywhere it's possible. --HanzoHattori 17:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

And actually, I think the picture of the Korean civilians is just fine. --HanzoHattori 17:44, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree,for the Korean War to have one Korean in pic is much more fine.But don't try to impose any american propaganda or something like propaganda.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 17:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Also: Nice touch with the sublimal message of the "imperialist" bombs falling down on these poor refugees in your montage. Ksyrie, for god's sake, I don't even want to know what you do with the articles of the Sino-Japanese conflicts or the Civil War. --HanzoHattori 17:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

What's the problem with the ariticle Sino-Japanese war?I have never edited the Sino-japanese war english article,I have to admit,I add some dead chinese generals name in chinese wikipedia.But what are you talking about？What do mean?I am not very clear about the underlying meaning of your words,please tell me more directly,my english is not so good.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 17:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Guys, let's cut the insults here Hanzo, Ksyrie does have a point. Bleh, before you change the montage, can you possible tell us why you want to change the current montage to this new one, and what benefits it'll bring to the article as a whole? --Steven 01:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I personally think Parsecboy's one is better.Kfc1864 02:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the image of the plane dropping bombs. It's too vague, and could very easily be misconstrued as being from WWII, while a jet aircraft such as a MiG-15 or Sabre is unmistakably from the Korean War. I more or less like the rest of the images though. Parsecboy 09:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, I will try and improve it by changing that image. Bleh999 08:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Archiving

Can we NOT archive the discussions that are a mere one week old? The discussion pages shouldn't be archived so frequently, because it becomes extremely hard to reference back if it's already in the archive. It also allows for more people to share their opinion on the comments. --Steven 04:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Changing to 1 week. The Main Page is 3 days.K14 06:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Archives should be created based on needs, not based on universally set time periods. Archives are done for exceedingly long talk pages so that past discussions are put away, ones that are no longer referenced. However, current archiving is done basically every week, even if the discussion page hasn't become burdened with many messages. In such cases, archiving is unnecessary.--Steven 01:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Mao's motives

The section definitely has problems. The allegations sound like conspiracy theories and came only from Jung Chang and Jon Halliday's controversial Mao: The Unknown Story, and is supported by no other historian. These unsupported claims does not deserve its own section and may be shortened to Chinese Involvement section.--PCPP 06:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. It's basically an original research rant. Far too much undue weight is given to Chang's gang of lobbyists. Elsewhere, too. El_C 07:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't matter because wikipedia is not censored, it should be worded so that is not presenting the allegations as a fact, but since you have no doubt read from 'other historians' perhaps you would like to quote how they dispute the allegations made by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday instead of attempting to censor the article by blanking content. Bleh999 07:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

That is a complete distortion of the meaning of WP:CENSORED. We do not overrepresent minority points of view, per WP:NPOV. El_C 07:57, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Please stop edit warring over an overlong, speculative non-npov section, Bleh999. El_C 07:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

You write that "there is no consensus for removal of this content" — actually, there was never consensus for adding it, to begin with. El_C 08:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

At any rate, this article should not degenerate as a for—against Chang polemic. Not all articles that touch on China need to revolve around this rather unimportant populist scholar, so as to completely underwhelm the actual subject here: which is the Korean War. El_C 08:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

That section has been in the article since mid July and the article and the talk page is quite active, so saying there was no consensus for adding it is strange, but maybe some of the editors don't actually read the article. Also I suggested he add evidence for dispute of those claims rather than blank content unilaterally as he did twice, if the allegations against Mao are disputed by other historians, we should see the evidence,. Bleh999 08:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Mid-July is not that long ago. Likely it just wasn't noticed. PCPP's changes place that section within a more npov context. El_C 08:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is the Korean War, not the Chang's views of [demonizing Mao, this time in the context of] the Korean War entry. El_C 08:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll have to read that book, but I still think it is very interesting information, also I wouldn't object to a similar section on a US leader in the article, this kind of information greatly enriches the article I believe. Bleh999 08:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

You would not be able to to criticize American leaders to the same extent due to systemic bias. As for scholars who object to Chang's brand of unscholarly populism, one example I cited elsewhere was from the expert on Chinese history, Coordinator of Asian Studies at the University of Tasmania, Professor Kaz Ross (profile) who concludes in Mao: the too familiar story (abstract), that while "The western media have been overwhelmingly supportive [of the book]... Mao: the Unknown Story is a misleading and dangerous text." She is far from the only one who thinks this. El_C 08:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Entirely POV - Leftist propaganda

Portions of this article are extremely POV. They appear to be one of those "moral equivelence" contrivences that those on the left create when the obvious evidence is that their side -- or people they like -- are entirely at fault for something terrible. They then attempt is to prove that the truth is "somewhere in the middle." I didn't check, but I wouldn't be surprised if the "flying ants" germ warfare joke has popped up from time to time and given credence.

War is a dirty, messy business for which those who start the them, and refuse to stop them are entirely responsible. Those who wave "naughty! naughty!" at those trying to avoid being pushed into sea should spend a little time on a front line. They might learn something. There are bad guys in this world, sometimes they have to be fought, and when that happens, no one will accept total defeat, with all that that implies.

In this case, the war and all its casualties are the responsibility of the communists. Entirely. The war started when Stalin gave the green light, and ended when he died. Its brutal conduct is a direct result of communist inhumanity. The rest is hindsight from an ideological tour d'ivresse that should have tumbled the moment the Berlin Wall came down and Soviet archives were opened.

And someone should remove Picasso's miserable propaganda painting, or relabel it. He was a Stalinist and believed the lies.68.5.64.178 08:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)