Talk:Mindfulness

I want to get this discussion page started because I'd like to see some expansion of this page. Mindfulness is an important concept in Buddhism and there are sutras devoted to it's practice. The non-Buddhist, non-religious uses of mindfulness are of interest as well, and could be expanded. As the page stands it's quite basic, and I think it could become far richer in information. Nightngle 13:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

• Special note: I have removed the banners for both the "Buddhism" and "Religions" Projects because it is yet to be determined what focus this article will take. The word "mindfulness" is not, in and of itself a religous term. It is only with it's application that it can take on religious significance. I would recommend that any religious tradition that uses this term to start a separate article on that context, as well as the psychological methods that are springing up using this term. Nightngle 17:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Spam external links issues

I have a big concern about the external links on this page. Except for the link to "Mindfulness in Plain English", they are all sites promoting services. To me, this violates the spam policy. I would like to see only sites that have material that supports understanding mindfulness, not links that promote signing up for a course.Nightngle 13:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for expanding the article and branching off with a mindfulness based cognitive therapy page. Because this page is part of articles on Buddhism, the secular work on mindfulness really should take a back seat here, but should indeed have it's own section for folks who want to branch off in that direction.Nightngle 15:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Many meanings of "mindfulness"

• I would like to see this article split into Mindfulness proper perhaps with some digression into Buddhism as suggested above and also Mindfullness-based Therapy where the incorporation of mindfulness into more modern psychoanalytical approaches can then be elaborated upon as mentioned in the article as this seems to be the leading edge in psychology for those at least who are mindful of it (pun intended ;-)). Mindfullness-based Therapy can be considered a therapy in its own right but is usually incorporated as an adjunct or component to other approaches with the possible exception of Dr. Jon Kabat-Zinn's and is also proving to be extremely effective in the treatment of one of society's most serious and prevalent mental illnesses of today: Depression. Well I did bite the bullet, created an account, added mention of Thich Nhat Hanh and may be back to split the article as I suggested. Anyone like to message/email me to point me to a style guide? User:Mattjs

• • That would be great if you could work on the, for lack of a better term, secular use of the term "mindfulness" a la Mindfulness Based therapies and stress reduction. I've been doing some work with the goal of expanding this article as a Buddhist term - talking about the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, etc and as a Buddhist meditation form. I would recommend clicking on the "help" link on the left and reading the manual of style for more information about how to write a wiki style article. Drop me a note on my talk page if you have further questions. Thanks! Nightngle 14:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
  • After doing some reading this morning, it strikes me that the term Mindfulness is clearly used in two distinct ways - one as a Buddhist practice Sati, the other in Western psychology as mindfulness as an attribute of consciousness that contributes to a person's well-being. Perhaps an article on Mindfulness practice would be better for the Buddhist use of the term, this article to explain the various usages for the term, and then other more specific articles about the various mindfulness-based therapies. What do you think? Nightngle 17:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• • • Good idea. So the question is whether to split as Mindfulness and Mindfulness practice or as Mindfulness and Mindfullness-based Therapy. I dont know if there really is a difference between Buddhist concepts (or practice) of mindfulness and psychotherapeutic conceptions of same (except in depth of the concept which certianly belongs to the former). Seems to me that mindfulness of any kind is a concept directly imported into psychology largely from Buddhist practicioners over recent decades ie. if you go back a few decades through the literature psychology I am sure that you will find very little mention of it if at all. If then Mindfulness is an original Buddhism term and one less explicated in the modern scientific tradition and terminology of psychology why then should we give it over to phychology and relegate the Buddhist concept to an alternative terminology or description such as Mindfulness practice as if it were an inferior and less scientifically precise conception. Though I do in fact prefer this phrase as it indeed emphasises practice and not mere ideas which itself is both very buddhist and in keeping with what mindfulness really is ie. a practise in daily living... I look forward to your next response, Cheers. Mattjs

BTW: I am one who also thinks that the Timeline of psychotherapy should contain Siddhartha Shakyamuni as one of the first psychotherapists and I am working the courage up to edit it this way as I know that someone will soon revert and a long and heated discussion will then ensue. On the other hand being such a neglected little wiki entry I might well get away with it. Mattjs 17:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry it's taken awhile to get back, I've been busy on many fronts. Anyway, I hear you on your points about Western psychology and mindfulness. On one hand, we could say that Western psychology has co-opted the term and the idea, yet your point is well taken that the roots of modern psychology could also be traced back to the BuddhaDharma. One of the problems I have, though, with trying to integrate the secular with the religious (for lack of better terms) is that I think we might be able to argue that the mindfulness practices used by Western psychology have a different goal in mind. While the fruit of Buddhist practice certainly is being more at peace, compassionate, and better "adjusted" those really aren't the goals. Yet, with modern psychology, one will see studies done to show that meditation, for instance, is theraputic with the goal of the relaxation response, ameliorating unwanted symptoms like pain, anxiety, even psoriasis. While the two are similar, they aren't quite the same.
• I'm still putting my thoughts together on this, but I'm thinking that this article might be better as a kind of disambiguation page as an article about the different concepts of mindfulness showing how they are similar and different, with see also's branching off for folks wanting to explore the Buddhist interpretations and the secular/psychology applications.
• Let me know what you think - this would be a good collaborative effort! Thanks, Cheryl Nightngle 13:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

• Hi, I'm Karley. I've been working a lot on the MBCT page and would like to contribut some ideas. I definitely think that mindfulness practice in the Buddhist meaning should be separate from the Mindfulness therapies. Mindfulness and psychoanalysis do not go together. Perhaps there could be a link on the Cognitive therapy page to mindfulness therapies strategies. I think to add those therapy methods to the already extensive mindfulness is page would make it too long. And, besides Buddhist Psychotherapy, most therapists do not bring mindfulness practice in the Buddhist sense into session. Take a look at the MBCT page and tell me what you think.

Hi, Karley - thanks for your comments. I'm glad to hear you're working on the Mindfulness therapies, there is a lot of really good stuff out there. I'm going to work on the Buddhist Mindfulness practices, and I think this page will be a good jumping off point to help people figure out which direction they would like to read about.Nightngle 15:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright, what happened to the original that was here two weeks ago. The Buddha wikiproject has complete overhauled the article and made it much less useful. In fact, it is not as well written. The secular version needs to be recreated and the Buddha wikiproject made as another article. It should have a short article and the See Full Article on Buddhism Mindfulness. Please recover the original document, I require it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.110.224 (talk) 22:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The only meaning of mindfulness that really counts is what an ordinary WP expects to see. If there are multiple possibilities, then the users see a disambiguation page. If one meaning is strongly dominant, then they get the dominant page with a top-of-the-page link to the less dominant meanings (if there aren't too many) or to a disambiguation page (if there are many). This is Wikipedia practice. WP:DAB Because psychology doesn't seem to want the term, you might well be able to effectively claim that the main entry is yours and effectively change the meaning of the word in Wikipedia, a good prosyletizing strategy. DCDuring 02:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I would favour the mindfulness article to concentrate primarily on the Buddhist origin of the term (including mindfulness practice) and for there to be a separate article on mindfulness-based therapies that covers how Buddhist philosophy has been applied by psychotherapies, such as Dialectical Behavioral Therapy and Mindfulness-based Cognitive Therapy. Any comments welcome here, or on my discussion page. --Vince 09:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The issue is entirely what a general reader would expect to find. The Buddhist use of the term is, of course, relatively new. Of course, the psychotherapy use is newer yet. And the psychotherapy uses are certainly SOMEWHAT derivative. I suppose that the psychotherapies that are interested in more generic meditation techniques could always refer to meditation if they think mindfulness is too Buddhist for them. So I guess I've convinced myself that the way it is now with the disambiguation line at the top and the Wiktionary box should handle the general reader fairly well. There might be a question as to how high on the page the Buddhism portalbox graphic should appear. How do other religions handle the inclusion of religious symbols in their portalboxes. DCDuring 23:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I feel like I've been very delinquent with this article - I had planned on making some structural changes, but haven't found the time to get to it. I agree with the idea that the word "mindfulness" is a generic term that has become loaded with religious and now psychological meaning. The psychology folks, seems to me, to want to quickly acknowledge that the term stems from Buddhism, but then imply that they've invented it. In Buddhism, using the term mindfulness has been popularized, but I don't think that means Buddhists own the definition, since in casual conversation, one might say "be mindful of the traffic" and the person does not mean that in a philosophical or religious sense - just a "be careful" meaning. I agree with DCDuring in that I don't think it's appropriate for either the psychologists or Buddhists to claim and redefine this word. Far better would be to concentrate on the term Sati for Buddhists, since this is the proper term. Unfortunately, it looks like this page needs work and a clarification as well. (For full disclosure, I am a practicing Buddhist myself and practice in the tradition of Thich Nhat Hanh the person who popularized this term as Buddhist.) Nightngle 15:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

There are questions, in principle empirical, as to what a user would (and will) expect to see when:

• clicking on a link from
  • a Buddhist page
  • a psychotherapy page
  • a psychology page
  • other pages
  • Wiktionary
• searching for the terms mindful or mindfulness
• coming to the page from a category

It is fairly simple to make sure that the links from specific pages in Buddhism, psychotherapy, and psychology link to appropriate pages or sections of pages. I think it could work with categories and Wiktionary as well.

Whether subsequent editors would agree is harder to tell. Then the only other unknown is what are the expectations of a user doing a term search. There may be reason for extra caution because something seen as a religious appropriation of an ordinary term can become controversial. If this is the case, then the initial page should be a disambiguation page. Behind that page can be various pages for different classes of usage of the word. WP seems to prefer that sectarian terms and definitions for the same word and even concept be put into the same article. I stubled across Eucharist in which parallel sections discuss the terms and concepts of various Christian sects use for the concept. The differences have been at the root of oppression, martyrdom, and wars in the real world. I am not sure that psychologists (as opposed to psychotherapists) have done much with the concept of mindfulness apart from Ellen Langer, an educational psychologist. I am also unsure whether psychotherapists' apparently instrumental attitude toward mindfulness and meditation is congenial to a more religious presentation of the concept. DCDuring 16:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that the most recent addition of mindfulness under the "Alternative Medicine" project really underscores the need to address this issue. With the term being part of the Buddhist project, used extensively in psychology (Jon Kabat Zin, etc), and now alternative medicine, a word which simply means to be aware/careful/cautious now seems to be loaded with connotations. Nightngle 13:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Surely the term mindfulness refers to a particular technique or practice both in its Buddhist and therapy forms. To say that it means solely to be aware would be ignoring the fact that this term means something quite specific when applied in this was. It is true that some people in psychology seem to be unaware of the Buddhist origin of the practice. All the more reason to have the article on mindfulness. --Vince 20:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I think that you'd have to be in the counseling field or interested in modern Buddhism to know that mindfulness is used in these specialized ways. If you did a survey of people on the street, I doubt very much that they'd have any idea of these definitions. Additionally, in Buddhism and in psychology, the term isn't really used in isolation. It's used as a phrase "right mindfulness" or "mindfulness practices", or as in "mindfulness-based stress reduction". Nightngle 17:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Is that not the idea of an encyclopaedia: to inform people of things that they don't already know? --Vince 15:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The first function of an encyclopedia is to inform people of what they want to know, to answer their questions. The questions they ask may change as a result of what they find. In WP if they wish to go deeper, there are in-line links; if they wish to go a little farther afield there are "see also" links. WP is not about taking people's interests and trying to lead them where you believe they should go, nor is it about serving only the needs of a small group of specialists, even editors. DCDuring 16:11, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

DCDuring, I think you've stated the distinction between encyclopedic and original writings very well there, and I agree. It's tough to wrap our heads around sometimes (kind of like the distinction between free speech and a groups rules about what is or isn't appropriate when in the group), but I do agree that the distinction exists and should apply to this word as well. I'm incredibly busy at work right now, but I'm very willing to work on this, it just may be a couple of weeks before I can start. With the distinction in place, both Buddhists ("Mindfulness practices") and psychologists ("Mindfulness based stress reduction") can flesh our their terms more fully without trying to redefine this word. Nightngle 13:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I am broadly in agreement with both of you. It is important not to bias the information contained here based on our own specialist interests. However, I would still contest that sometimes people may well want to know things that they previously did not think they wanted to know (if that makes any sense). I don't see that as original writing, if it uses previously referenced work. Best of luck with editing the page. I will contribute where I can but please feel free to pull me up if you have any concerns. --Vince 16:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

It isn't perfect the way it is, but it's not too bad either. There is a risk that the page-editing somehow goes off the rails if we don't get it a little less rough-looking. I'm not close enough to the subject matter to take the lead. I'm interested in the process of satisfying diverse user groups in WP, especially making sure that the more casual users, by definition not well represented among editors. Unless somebody else volunteers, I guess I'll be waiting for Nightngle. DCDuring 17:43, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

MINDFULNESS IN CHRISTIANITY

The Mindfulness entry seems oddly biased towards Christianity.

Mindfulness in Christianity

The Mindfulness entry seems oddly biased towards Christianity. Mindfulness in Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, is an interesting side note, but since the origins of the practice are Buddhist, one would expect Christianity to appear somewhat later in the article, rather than dominating the first paragraph, which should be devoted to basic definition and history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.75.80.162 (talk) 22:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Vipassana

From what I know of mindfulness it is also known as Vipassana. Shouldn't we merge the two articles into a more complete one?

Vipassana meditation is not the same thing as mindfulness practice. For one thing, there is no "mindfulness meditation" per se, but rather a number of "mindfulness practices". Vipassana meditation is a structured form of meditation that has been taught directly from the Buddha. "Mindfulness meditation" has become something of a catch-all for quieting the mind, which is more like Samatha meditation, or the "goal based" approach of the psychologists who want to alleviate symptoms (meditation that has a goal would not be a Buddhist form of meditation). Nightngle 13:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)