Talk:Halloween

blatant mistake

"In the ninth century, the Church measured the day as starting at sunrise, in accordance with the Florentine calendar" -- as following the link confirms, the Church measured the day starting at sunset, not sunrise! Please update.199.43.19.222 11:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Irish-American Appropriation

As usual, we see another instance in this article of the general phenomenon where anything to which the term "Celtic" can be attached is missappropriated on behalf of the Irish, presumably by misty-eyed Americans indulging in their customary wish-fulfillment 217.37.221.49 11:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

History Reversion

I'm reverting the history intro to an earlier version. The current one originally added by Copeland2119 sounds like neo-pagan fluffiness. I've never heard of "the Celtic Goddess Eiseria" and it was unsourced. Earthnut 06:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Archiving of talk pages needed

Please would some editor familiar with the article archive any appropriate threads? Thank you! Benjiboi 21:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. Stormin' Foreman 23:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Australia and New Zealand

Someone post some sources for the claims or I'm deleting it. As an Australian, I'm damn well certain no Halloween centric shows are broadcast here for the holiday, the holiday is barely recognized, outside of a few kids in major city cent res (who often get strange looks when they go trick or treating) and any rise in costume sales would be negligible... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.184.216.146 (talk) 00:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Well they show a Simpson Halloween ep, but that's pretty much it.--Steven X 06:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Additional Information (Ireland)

In Ireland in particular the West we used to sing a song when doing the "trick or treating". It goes as follows: "Christmas is coming and the geese are getting fat, please put a penny in the old mans hat, if you haven't got a penny a h'penney will do, if you haven't got a h'penny God Bless you." This would be sung when the door bell was rung and the owner of the house opened to see a collection of children dressed up as witches, wizards etc. After all the rounds of the houses were done we used to then empty our collection bags and begin to count how many sweets, nuts and indeed pennies we had collected. The night would finish off with us going down with ma and da to see the bonfire.

Hey! I remember that rhyme...but the Dublin version ended "if you haven't got a h'penny then God help you." (Sarah777 12:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC))

That song was also traditionally sung in England (and perhaps other places). I don't know where it originated.--81.153.87.45 21:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

may I suggest...

locking this article due to recent vandalism?

changing the assertion that there is no proof that Christians purposefully turned Pagan holidays into Christian ones. "In 601 A.D. Pope Gregory the First issued a now famous edict to his missionaries concerning the native beliefs and customs of the peoples he hoped to convert. Rather than try to obliterate native peoples' customs and beliefs, the pope instructed his missionaries to use them: if a group of people worshipped a tree, rather than cut it down, he advised them to consecrate it to Christ and allow its continued worship." ~http://www.loc.gov/folklife/halloween.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hythlae (talk • contribs) 21:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

18:01, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Upper age of trick-or-treating

"A child usually "grows out of" trick-or-treating at around age twelve. Trick-or-treating by teenagers is accepted but generally discouraged by those handing out candy. Teenagers and adults instead often celebrate Halloween with costume parties, bonfire parties, staying home to give out candy, listening to Halloween music, watching horror movies or scaring people. However, lately teenagers, especially girls, "grow out" of trick or treating when they go to college. It is beginning to be considered "cool" to go trick or treating for a minimal amount of time (one or two hours) in large groups and in costumes and then head to a party with a more revealing costume."

This whole section is defiantly NOT wikipedia standard and defiantly needs revision —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryanahead (talk • contribs) 19:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

"Defiantly" or "definitely"? — Walloon 21:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL! Both!(Sarah777 21:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC))

Defiantly... it seems like it is a teenager telling other teenager what to do to be cool, it just doesn't seem mature. The first part is okay though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryanahead (talk • contribs) 17:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, even though it is "immature" to have that article there, it seems pointless as well as it doesn't really have any significance to the article. If there was a law against going trick or treating then maybe lol. I am going to delete this unless anyone has any objections? Signed: pa-merynaten —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.224.245 (talk) 18:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so - in the UK, most people who trick or treat are over the age of 12. Get your facts write Esc luver 17:59, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Get your facts — right? — Walloon 18:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Is it worth adding that in the UK, trick-or-treaters are as likely to be met with verbal abuse as candy due to the widely held belief that we in the UK are not "effin' yanks" and neither are the trick-or-treaters? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.188.238.252 (talk) 10:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Does this men that I as a young 60-year-old can´t go trick-or treating? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.176.237.1 (talk) 12:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

"Before indoor plumbing was ubiquitous, tipping over or displacing outhouses was a popular form of vandalism." As most outhouses in England were (and still are) made of brick, this statement seems suspect, to say the least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.245.32.11 (talk) 02:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

FA

October 31'st is coming up fast, i think we should get this article up to FA status! EvilHom3r 00:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It would (will, if people are game) take a lot of work. This article needs a lot of help. We would also most likely be working under semi-protected status, as we're now entering the time when this article gets hit hard with vandalism. Just look at the logs from last year, to see what we're in for. I'm potentially game, but just sayin'. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I was just about to post that same suggestion. I think that it might be possible to reach GA status before October 31. We need to get to work on it quickly. I'm going to post some suggestions and I will need everyone willing to try to work fast to get the suggestions done. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 19:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to help tidy up this article, but I can't because when I log in the article is still locked. I think it's because most of the time i forget to log in and all my contributions just show my IP address. Anyway, does anyone know how I can go about applying to become an "established" user or do I simply have to remember to log in from now on? Dennisc24 17:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, You must always log in, otherwise Wikipedia can't be sure if you're established or not. The page is protected from IP editors because they account for most vandalism and because, since it's Halloween, a lot of vandals will want to add nonsense to this article. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 19:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

To do List

Here is a list of things that need to be done for those interested in getting this article to GA status prior to October 31.

• Find me a source for the sentence "It was a day of religious festivities in various northern European Pagan traditions, until Popes Gregory III and Gregory IV moved the old Christian feast of All Saints' Day from May 13 to November 1."
• Find good sources on the actual HISTORY of Halloween.

---

Wikidudeman ^(talk) 19:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"Human Sacrifices"

I have neither the necessary privileges nor the relevant knowledge to edit a page on Halloween, but the section fittingly titled "Human Sacrifices" is very much below Wikipedia standards. In particular, the sentence regarding one Rowan Williams looks like some sort of personal attack rather than factual accounting. It would be helpful for the community if someone were to bring that section up to Wikipedia standards (new title and all), if indeed it belongs as a section at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WeSpeakSunshine (talk • contribs) 06:09, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

That section has been reverted for copyvio reasons - it would have been removed for NPOV reasons otherwise. DenisMoskowitz 12:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Hallowe'en in Scotland

The town of Kilmarnock in Scotland is (as far as I know) the only place in the world to celebrate Hallowe'en on the last Friday of October instead of the traditional 31st of October. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.185.35 (talk) 10:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Night Of Light - reclaiming Hallowe'en for the church

May I suggest adding the following text and link to the Religious Perspectives paragraph?

In recent years, some Roman Catholics in Great Britain have sought to reclaim Hallowe'en for the church by holding Night Of Light vigils across the country. This has had the endorsement of Bishop Ambrose and an official Roman Catholic Exorcist in Great Britain.

Claim surely, rather than reclaim?! (Sarah777 19:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC))

Mischief Night

"In parts of England, there is a similar festival called holy day which falls on the November 4. During the celebration, children play a range of "tricks" (ranging from minor to more serious) on adults. One of the more serious "tricks" might include the unhinging of garden gates (which were often thrown into ponds, or moved far away). In recent years, such acts have occasionally escalated to extreme vandalism, sometimes involving street fires.[11]"

I've no idea how "holy day" crept in here (vandalism?) but the reference is to Mischief Night. I recall this from my own North Yorkshire childhood, and the reference in the footnote [11] links to a BBC report on Mischief Night.

Also I don't think "festival" (or for that matter "celebration") is the appropriate word, but rather "tradition". It is certainly not approved of or encouraged by adults.89.243.107.71 14:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Halloween in Pastafarian Religion

According to the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, page 124, mentioned Halloween as an important Pastafarian holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bossudenotredame (talk • contribs) 06:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Dispute

I know that I will be hated by some of you for calling the popular `wisdom` into question (and by some just for being a Catholic) but I must dispute the statement in this article that says that Halloween ORIGINATED as a pagan holiday. This belief, though widely held, doesn`t seem logical when the facts are considered. I do not say that I know better as of this writting but I would very much like to see more support for this statement before I would accept it and I would like to see it reconciled with other facts that seem to contradict it.

Let us consider that the very name of the holiday suggest that the holiday originated as a Christian holiday. In that Halloween is a simplification of All Hallow`s Eve, it seems ot reveal that Halloween is an after affect and is not the actuall substantive holiday; that distinction being held by the actual All Hallow`s Day. The very fact that it is held as an Eve, thus a vigil or vespers celebration is uniquelly Christian and goes counter to what we know of the Pagans. When we compare the Substantives of the Pagan Holiday with the actual Christian holiday, we find they are not technically celebrated on the same day and that sharing an evening for a few hours is actually an accident. Again I don`t claim to know better absolutely but it does seem to contradict the pagan origination statement.

We must also consider that All Saints Day was promulgated by a Pope living in Souther Europe, Italy, and thus would likely not have knowledge of the pagan practices of Nothern Europe, least of all Britain. If the Pope did know about the Pagan holiday, it is likely that he wouldn`t have cared or let that influence his decision. If the Pope did know and did care, it would be likely that instead of supporting the Pagan holiday, he would instead give Christians better or at least seemingly more important things to do then participate. Of course an reading of the writings of the popes in regards to this holiday would probably enlighten this matter a lot. It does seem very unlikely that the Pope would put the Christian holiday the day after if his intention was to suppress or suplant the Pagan holiday.

We must also consider that All Saints day and thus also the vigil the night before is a major Catholic Holy Day of Obligation that is celebrated the world over with very similar practices in majority Catholic countries. The Pagan holiday mentioned certainly was not so pervasive or successful. It would also appear that while the Pagan practices influence Christians in English speaking countries, they did not influence Catholic Practices in other countries. The actions involved with the Pagan holiday seem to be of a different nature from the Catholic celebration. The Pagan holiday described seems to have more in common with the English speaking holiday of ThanksGiving then with the Christian holiday of All Hallows Eve.

We can compare the results and history of All Hallows Eve with that of Valentines day and see some inconsistancies. Valentine`s day specifically did want to replace a local pagan custom and thus put the observance of it on the same day and was local in character. All Saints day likely was not intended to replace a Pagan custom but create a Christian one to fill a place on the Liturgical Calendar. Thus we see that it was not put on the same day in actuallity, the customs do not seem directly related, the holiday was promulgated to be observed by all and was not local in Character. Also, where as Valentines day sought to supress a practice and thus discouraged the continued Pagan practice in favor of the Christian one; All Saints Day it would seem was influenced by the Pagan holiday in those local areas that had it and did not discourage them.

It seems to me, based on these facts and logic that All Saints Day, in origin was Christian and by accident was influenced by a Pagan holiday in those areas that had it before but in those areas only. The two holidays thus would be seperate and distinct. It doesn`t seem likely that one followed from the other. If the Christians really did want to replace the Pagan holiday, they would have to me put the new holiday on the same day, or the day before, not the day after, it would have been local in character not universal and that there would be a reinterpretation on the practices of the Pagans in a Christian way instead of the practices being substantly different.

Clearly some work and research on this matter needs to be done. I would be happy to do some of it but as I am the one raising the dispute and that I am obviously Catholic, I doubt that any of you would believe me if I did it so I simply ask that the caretaker of this page seek to reconsile these facts. As the page stands how, I must doubt its factuality and dispute its contents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.13.30.159 (talk) 12:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

All Saints Eve is surely not Celtic

I wonder why the unsigned contributor is so shy. Halloween can definitively not be an old celtic Festival. Compare this article (which claims that Halloween is the continuation of an original "Samhain") with the article on Samhain where obviously some more knowledgeable people have been active and have a look at All Saints Day , too!.

• All Saints Day is a Festival that has nothing to do with northern European Pagans.
• Nobody knows when Samhain took place (if it was a fixed festival at all)
• The claim that an ancient Celtic Samhain should have to to with a remembrance of the dead is unfounded
• Halloween has come about as the Eve of All Saints Day - like other celebrations on the Eve of high festivals of which the start of Christmas celebration on December 24 in many countries may be the most prominent
• Halloween-Traditions related to fear of ghosts etc may rise out of some folklore which can not be traced to exact dates and places but are far more easily explained stemming from a popular reception of the ecclesiastical All-Saints-theme than from alleged traditions going back a millenium. Such age-old traditions are a very popular theme but just unprovable like Eastre's Easter or a Germanic "Christmas"
• Instead of trying to deduct Halloween from the old Celts (who have the disadvantage that a bit too much is known about them which contradicts the lore) - why not connect it to the Flying Spaghetti Monster ? Leaves mor space for phantasy and explanations, definitively useful idea that one! --Kipala 07:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Lunchtime meal called "dinner" in Ireland

I have to say, living in Ireland (Dublin specifically) that I find that saying the lunchtime meal is called "dinner" is very dubious, and an over-generalisation. It certainly is in some parts (such as my mother's home, Leitrim) but in Dublin, I would rarely hear it referred to as anything other than "lunch" (except by people from other regions). Now while that's Dublin, it is important to note that the Greater Dublin Area accounts for just under 40% of the State's population (hardly negligable). Can someone provide a proper source for this statement, because I highly doubt one exists. - ^Estoy_Aquí^{(t • c • e)} 23:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Qualified it to "sometimes called dinner" with appropriate citation. Valenciano 08:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Good. The use of dinner for the midday meal was almost universal in Ireland till maybe 20-30 years ago. But certainly today that usage in Dublin is rare, agreed. (Sarah777 09:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC))

Guy Fawkes Night Not Celebrated

It may be useful to explain why Guy Fawkes night is not celebrated in Ireland. It is because Fawkes was supportive of the Roman Catholic ascendancy in England at the time, and as such, his capture and subsequent execution are not celebrated by Roman Catholics in the UK (this tradition has fallen by the wayside in recent years since the historical context of Bonfire Night becomes less relevant) - this tradition of non-celebration by RCs is common throughout the UK, but Ireland being predominantly Roman Catholic, it is more marked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.74.176.98 (talk) 10:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

U. S. public service campaign?

On "Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me," the NPR word-oriented quiz show, it was stated that the most successful public-service campaign in history was one that took place in the 1930s, encouraging children to go from door to door and beg for candy on Hallowe'en, instead of committing pranks and vandalism. Interesting if true... deserves more investigation... Dpbsmith (talk) 10:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Current event?

This article shouldn't be tagged as a current event since, while today is Halloween, it is a recurring event. It is not unfolding but rather repeating, and the only changes that are likely to occur to the article are due to better historical documentation. I'll be removing the tag shortly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevinthenerd (talk • contribs) 13:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Massive errors in the first line

"Halloween is a holiday..." - No it isn't. Halloween is the EVE of a holiday. Christmas is a holiday, Christmas Eve is not.

It isn't even a holiday in any of the other sense of the word... it isn't a public holiday, for instance, not in the UK, not in Europe, not even in the US (where they seem to take it more seriously than anyone!)

I'm not sure it's right to say it is "celebrated" either. I've never heard of anyone "celebrating" Halloween. I've attended Samhain celebrations on the 31st of October, but not Halloween. Halloween is not something that can be "celebrated" in the usual sense of the word.

I would correct the article, but it appears to be locked.

Adam