Talk:Schmaltz

Merge articles on schmaltz & lard?

What is the difference, if any, between lard and schmaltz? It seems that both terms refer to rendered animal fat. Should't these two articles be merged? – Kpalion (talk) 00:41, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe, Schmaltz is the one style(form, cuisine) of the food culture of German and Jewish, that originated from lard. (^.v^.) --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 04:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't think I understand, Sheynhertz-Unbayg. Schmaltz is a style? Could you clarify that please? – Kpalion (talk) 21:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me. I think Schmaltz is a processed food that originated from lard, and is not pure "lard"(cf. peanut butter is not peanut, wine is not vine). OK?(confused English) (;.;) --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 11:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I get you now, but according to the article on lard, it is also processed foodstuff, and it's the same thing as schmaltz (in other words, both lard and schmaltz are to animal fat what peanut butter is to peanuts). Or is there some kind of subtelty I didn't catch? – Kpalion (talk) 12:32, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Lard for German language is Schlachtfett or Schweineschmalz(swine's schmaltz). (:-)) --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 13:41, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. This is supposed to be an English encyclopedia, not a German-English dictionary (Wikipedia is not a dictionary). – Kpalion (talk) 16:20, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

For one thing, lard typically comes from pigs, which aren't kosher. I, for one, wouldn't want schmaltz to refer largely to a pork product.

I agree. In fact, I think the the link to the German Wikipedia article for "schmalz" should be removed. While they are related, they are distinct.--BillFlis 23:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, my Jewish aunt prepares mostly duck lard, which is entirely kosher. So I suppose we could leave a note here that the schmaltz is a kosher version of lard and merge the rest to where it belongs... Halibutt 13:37, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

So, please correct me if I get it wrong: schmaltz is an English word for kosher lard which came to English from German via Yiddish. That would be logical wouldn't it? – Kpalion (talk) 17:34, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

In the interests of strengthening Wikipedia's Project Judaism, I vote for two separate articles: Schmaltz and Lard. The main difference is that one is kosher and the other is not. Each article could have a "See also" reference to the other one—in the same way that cholent and chamin, which are basically the same type of slow-cooked stew, have different entries in deference to their respective Ashkenazi and Sephardi origins. Yoninah 15:07, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Schmaltz is not kosher lard, for the same reason that shortening is not merely vegetable lard. True, they are both rendered animal fats, but the characteristics of beast (mammalian) fat are different from those of the fat of fowls. Ducks and geese use fat to keep them afloat, and like chickens need it to regulate their body temperature; mammals need less of this. The fat of fowls is oilier and heavier than the fat of pork. So for the same reason that I would not use shortening in a recipe that calls for lard (the result will be dry and dusty), I probably would not substitute lard for schmaltz. (anon)

It should not be merged. Schmaltz is not typically used in the English language except in some urban areas in the USA. I don't think this should even be an issue. Schmaltz is typically poultry related, lard is typically pork, suet is beef, etc. (anon)

I think, english (American, Yiddish, Jewish, and Halibutt's Polish) Schmaltz and German Schmalz is different type. Jewish shmaltz is from chicken. --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 08:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I feel a merger would be inappropriate. Schmaltz, both merely as a processed food, and as a foodstuff particularly emblematic of a specific culture, merits an article on its own apart from lard. It is appropriate for the article to distinguish the German schmaltz which means lard in general from the Yiddish usage of schmaltz or shmalz specific to chicken fat. (I have never heard it applied to other poultry fats as well, such as goose or turkey, but I'll bow to any Yiddish or kashrut authority on that point.) Clarifying the distinction doesn't turn the article into a dictionary entry. Furthermore, including other definitions of the word schmaltz still doesn't turn this into a dictionary entry, it just provides readers with some guidance short of creating a disambig page. (I think a disambig page would be unmerited and might approach being a dictionary-style listing of alternate definitions, rather than an index to substantive articles.)

German schmaltz is spelled Schmalz, and it's made of pigs or ducks. Sth. sold simply als Schmalz is definetely Schweineschmalz or pig schmaltz, schmaltz from goose is sold explicitely as Gänseschmalz. To clear the etymology, Schmalz is German, not Jiddisch. It is derived from schmelzen, which is common in all Germanic Languages eg. as smelt in English or smelten in old dutch. Other words with the same radical are Schmelze (smeltery) or Schmelz (enamel). Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm says: mhd. ahd. smalz, mnd. nnd. smalt, smolt, mndl. nndl. smout, zu schmelzen gehörig. Schmalz was very common in the last centuries, before margarine was invented and when butter was very expensive, so most people used Schmalz as fat. I guess other countries and cuisines share that practice too. From there the word and the practice have found there way into Jiddisch and English.

The schmaltz article could use substantive enhancement about the role of schmaltz in cooking, as a cultural touchstone, as a preservative, and as a staple food so important that German soldiers were issued schmaltz tins to take into the field with them (I don't have a cites handy or I'd add some of this today). When the article progresses that far, the explanations of the etymology and the brief excursion into other usages will be much less prominent.

Finally, schmaltz is an English word, having migrated from German, so the question of becoming a German-English dictionary is not pertinent. Schmaltz is sold as such in Anglophone venues, just as kielbasa is; and like kielbasa, both are included in the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, accessible at dictionary.com. Schmaltz is my family surname, and I've spent a lifetime hearing about it, hence all the trivia in this comment. As Wiki's mayonnaise is not subsumed in oil, schmaltz ought not be subsumed in lard. -- Lisasmall 02:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

If this article is not merged...

• If this article isn't merged then it should be written in paragraph form, rather than as a list of bullet points. ike9898 01:05, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I vote for a merger on the pretence that Smalec means lard in polish so to say that it means only bird fat is not true.(anon)

Where did you get Polish? The word, now part of American English, arrived from the Yiddish, which in turn had taken it (long ago) from German. The word in English has acquired another, figurative meaning of excessively sentimental music or art. No need for original research, just look it up!--BillFlis 11:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Schmaltz as Music

My own interpretation of the popular meaning Schmaltz as music is a reference specifically to the music of the 40s and 50s, exemplified by such performers as Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin, predating the emergence of Rock (as a white art form with performers such as Elvis Presley). I've never heard the term used to refer to other periods and types of music, despite its sentimentality level, except in reference to the above mentioned musical period. (anon)

Schmaltz as a descriptor of music can cover the genre you describe, but it's also applied to the polkas and waltzes popularized in the mid-20th century. The Lawrence Welk Show would be a good example of this; Liberace and Paul Anka have also been called schmaltzy, and, more recently, Barry Manilow. I am not contradicting your view, just suggesting the term is used so much by critics that it's hard to designate one particular time as the classic or definitive Era of Schmaltz. -- Lisasmall 02:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you're confusing "schmaltzy" with "square". I've looked in three dictionaries, including this one and this one, and they all agree on the sentimental meaning. Moreover, they tell no story of any servant of any queen being the source of the word, but give its etymology merely as the Yiddish meaning of rendered fat. The Dictionary of American Slang dates it to 1951. Also, this reference says that the term is not slang.--BillFlis 13:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Schmaltz in Common-Speak

Great article. I use schmaltz all the time in speech to refer to something excessively cheezy (in the non-literal sense) or sentimental, so that definition seemed bang on to me :D Must be a North American term (I'm from Western Canada and it is used here often enough :) Isn't linguistics interesting? :D DasHip 05:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC) DasHip

As I understand the meaning my father gave me, Smaltz was a slang word used in Minnesota and later migrated to the East. He told me it was used in his high school (around 1936-1939) to discribe White music. He said it was made up from Swing Music and Waltz - commonly attributed to 'White' music.

In the AC/DC rock band's song 'Let there be Rock' there is a reference sung by Bon Scott:

"The white man had the smaltz, the black man had the blues"...

Duck fat?

Is duck fat a form of schmaltz? Many high-end markets sell rendered duck fat and I know its important in Hungarian cuisine. Should uses of duck fat be part of the shmaltz article or should that be in its own article? Peter G Werner 22:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Schmalz = lard

It is true that some kinds of Schmalz taste strongly and have all that funny stuff (Grieben) in them, however the vanilla pure pork fat, nearly taste- and odorless, used for frying, is also called Schmalz.