Talk:Greco-Italian War

I have moved Miskin's evidence from Keitel to the "Military insights from the war section", which is more appropriate for a discussion of the effects of the war than the "Results" section --Mike Young 22:11, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(aniv of march on Roma)started the campaign in the begining of winter

Did the invasion fall on this date as a coincidence, or did Mussolini purposely pick this day to launch the war?K... 09:08, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Duplication in Battle of Greece

The Battle of Greece article contains some of the same material that we see here, only with fewer details, but better formatting. I would like to propose that these two articles be merged, but I don't know which name is better for the result. Jamie 02:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Following discussion on Talk:Battle of Greece it seems that these two articles should be separated at the point of German intervention. This means there is a lot of material here which should be moved to that article. Also this article's battlebox needs more information of casualties and commanders. Jamie 10:05, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Effect of the war on Barbarossa

The Military Insights section states: 'It has been argued that the Balkan Campaign decisively delayed the German invasion of Russia. For example, during the Nuremberg trials after WWII, Hitler's Chief of Staff Field Marshall Keitel stated that "The unbelievable strong resistance of the Greeks delayed by two or more vital months the German attack against Russia; if we did not have this long delay, the outcome of the war would have been different in the eastern front and in the war in general, and others would have been accused and would be occupying this seat as defendants today". On the other hand, it may have been the Russian weather, not the contingencies of subsidiary campaigns, which determined Barbarossa’s launch date.'

Neither assertion is correct. German forces that participated in the Balkans campaigns had sufficient time to return home and refit before Barbarossa. In addition, the weather in the USSR did not delay the invasion. Neither of these factors show up in German high command documents relating to Barbarossa, despite Keitel's Nuremberg testimony after the war. Instead, the Germans embarked on a massive expansion of their armed forces in the autumn of 1941, expanding the number of divisions by half, so that they would have enough forces to simultaneously invade the USSR while occupying western Europe. It turned out that German industry was not able to produce sufficient equipment in time for these forces (even though the Germans used considerable amounts of captured weapons and vehicles), and this was the cause of the delay. Even as late as early June 1941, a number of the critically important panzer and motorized divisions had not received their equipment.

All this and more is covered in "The German attack on the USSR: the Destruction of a Legend," M. van Creveld, European Studies Review, Jan. 1972.

The assertion must be considered as correct as Germany never intended to have to deal with occupying Greece himself, the Greeks held out longer than any other nation had. The battle of Crete and the thousands of soldiers killed there as well as in mainland Greece meant that Hitler delayed his plans to invade Russia at least 3 months late. Given the history of Russia and its winter it cannot be denied that this was a vital and unanticipated campaign and is seen as many as a turning point in the war

Okhi Day

Responding to the request to discuss merge box in the article page: I think that Okhi Day should stay as a complete but short article, with basically only the first and last paragraphs, and a "see also Greco-Italian War" comment. The middle of the Okhi Day article describing overations should be removed, or any useful parts merged into Greco-Italin War here. And this article should have something to the effect of "— still celebrated as Okhi Day in Greece &mdash" added in. Any comments or objections? Herostratus 16:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I think Okhi day shouldn't be merged because it is a different a subject to the Greco-Italian War. --Kyriakos 02:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Between this and talk on Okhi Day I'm calling it consensus not to merge.

I believe that Okhi day should remain, but focus only on the events of Oct. 28 (i.e. remove most of the information about the ensuing operations). It can also be appended with information about how the day is celebrated TheArchon 11:06, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Summary of Campaign section

I think this section is redundant and should be deleted. I will delete it in a couple of days if noone has any objections. Periklis* 01:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed this section and restructured the article a bit. I added a "Naval Ops" section, where the - all too frequently ignored - RHN actions in the Adriatic, together with the concurrent RN-Regia Marina confrontations are to be added.
PS. Apart from needing sources and a bit fleshing out the separate stages of campaign, I feel this article is rather short on the Italian perspective. If anyone has relevant knowledge or relevant sources, please contribute! Cplakidas 22:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that info about naval actions should be included. Especially the raid on Taranto in Southern Italy and Volana in Albania. Maybe add some info about the submarine Papanikolis. Regarding the lack of the Italian perspective, one way of adding it would be to add eyewitness accounts to get their views in. Periklis* 04:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

An Italian war crime and boorish racism

On August 15, 1940 -more than two months before the Italian attack to Greece (Oct. 28, 1940)- the Italian submarine "Delfino" (Cap. Aicardi)sunk the coastal Greek cruiser "Helli" in front of the Tinos island during a Greek religious ceremony. Just to provoke Greece! The true reason of the Italian defeat in November 1940 was boorish racism: Italy considered Greece "a little, poor, inferior Nation" and a few of Italian divisions were "enough to defeat it". Badoglio said: "Those Greeks`ll get the lesson what they deserve!"

Boorish racism is a term excessive and out of reality. To have considered Greece "a little, poor, inferior Nation" is nationalism, not racism.--Brunodam 06:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Stalemate

It states several times that just prior to the German invasion, both sides lacked the strength to attack one and other, which resulted in a stalemate. It also states that the entire Greek army was sent to face the Italians, leaving all other borders stripped. It stands to reason then that this was a stalemate, not a victory by either side. Also, had the war continued without the intervention by the Germans or the Allies, Italy could have used it's full strength against Greece, and conquered it from the South upward, as it was left basically defenseless. This is attested to by the rapid conquest of Greek held islands that Italy conquered. They had no defenses, because all of the defenses were on the Albanian front. It is resonable to assume that this could and would have been case with most of mainland Greece as well. - Izzo

Well, up to the final surrender to the Axis, on April 1941, the Greeks were certainly winning over the Italians. Even after the surrender to the Germans, on April 20-21, the Italian attacks on the Greek front were beaten back. The situation is correctly summed up as a Greek tactical victory, but a strategic stalemate. Italy was already deploying 35 divisions against 16 Greek ones in Albania by the end of March, and still unable to make headway. How many more divisions did they have to send? The Italians also failed in carrying out what you say, and what the Greek High Command feared - attacks on Greek islands, especially the Ionian islands or Crete. For whatever reason, they did not carry these operations out in November 1940, when they had the forces available for it, and it is doubtful they would attempt it later, with their surface fleet unable to support them after Cape MAtapan and the RN's Taranto raid. The islands they "conquered" they did so only after the Germans had already overrun the Greek mainland. As for what would have happened without intervention, it's anyone's guess, but it belongs to the realm of alternate history, not in Wikipedia. Regards, Cplakidas 12:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

If you read what was written here on the later stages of the war, no one was winng the war. Certainly, the Greeks had insurged into Albania, but lacked the strength to move foreward by any means. Also, the Italians found themselves dug in not able to attack the Greeks, but not in danger of losing any more territory to the Greeks either. This situation is remenescent of World War I France, where the Germans were dug in in French held territory, while the French were dug in as well. Neither side was able to successfully break the others lines at that point. That is a stalemate. Therefore, the Italian Campaign in Greece would also be a stalemate. Also, when you consider that the Germans were able to just walk into Greece and face no opposition, the Axis campagin in Greece was a great success. With the whole Greek Army tied up on the Albanian border, the Germans, and other allies, face to resistance. I am making no argument about the war itself, I am merely stating that from a historical point of view, it's true that it was a stalemate. If it were a "tatical Greek victory" Greece would have beaten the Italians, not stalemated them, as well as having their army free to fight invading Germans and Bulgarians. With both sides dug in, neither attacking the other successfully, then it is a stalemate situation, no matter which nation has more territory from the other. As for supposition, your right, it is not meant for wikipedia, I only offered it as my personal oppinion. - Izzo

You are quite right in what you are saying. However, the campaign was certainly a tactical victory for the Greeks, for the simple reason that they repulsed the Italian invasion, staged a successful counterattack, and moved the battle into Italian "home territory" (if that can be said of Albania), remaining unbeaten by the Italians until final surrender to the Germans. The fact that they ultimately lacked the strength to achieve a decisive outcome does not mean that it was not a victory. If on April 6, instead of a German invasion, an agreement had been brokered (most likely of return to "status quo ante"), the war would have gone down as a definite Greek victory. I am however adding the "strategic stalemate" to the article's infobox, to correctly reflect the historical outcome. BTW, it would be nice if we had more of the Italian perspective in the article. If you can help, please do so. Regards, Cplakidas 12:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Both titles (Tactical victory, stalemate) correctly sum up the situation of this war. I believe it was unique because of the fact it had no real winner. I'll try to put more perspective from Italian people into to the article. Thanks for your help on the issue. Best wishes. - Izzo

Someone has reverted the edits once again, so I will have to reset them. - Izzo

I may nominate this page for protection, as people keep vandalizing the "result" section, and refuse to join the debate here or stop the reversions. I am not about to get into an edit war, so if this continues I'll request protection for this page and a ban for the reverter. - Izzo

Janissaries

Hi, Cplakidas. As you requested I have written something from the Italian perspective. I see that you erased the exact words of Mack Smith, the english considered the best scholar on Mussolini and his Fascism, about the Anatolian Greeks in the Greek Army. I have added additional sentences to explain the meaning. It is not a matter of "inferior Latins" or inferior Greeks.....It is a matter of historical evidence and Wikipedia is based on this, not on racial or nationalistic opinions, don't you believe? Anyway, feel free to do what you want on those phrases of Mack Smith: I don't want to have any edit war with you. I have plenty of work to do and it is going to be very difficult for me in the future to add something more to your article (which by the way, I believe it is worth more than a simple "B").

Allow me one final little commentary on the subject "anatolian greek janissaries": May be you in Greece don't realize this, but we Italians (I should say most of us) consider the attack on Greece one of our humiliations during the disaster that was WWII. An humiliation even because was an attack against the Greeks, with whom we have had since Roman (and Magna Grecia) times a special relationship like big and small brothers. Many Italian historians (not only Mack Smith) pinpoint the fact that the million anatolian Greeks (who moved to Greece in the 1923 "exchange") probably (of course it is impossible to demonstrate precisely this) made the Greek army a very stubborn one, full of rage because of the "exchange". The memory of the disaster of Smirne was present in many Greek prisoners of war, according to interviews (done in 1940/1) registered by the "Ufficio Storico" of the Italian Army. Those soldiers declared to be strongly motivated against the Italians, even because they were told by their superiors that Mussolini wanted to give Epirus to the Albanians (like Smirne was given to The Turks) and to make Corfu (with other Greek islands) an Italian island. Regards.--Brunodam 23:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Very fascinating information. Thanks for bringing it up, Brunodam. I wonder how many Anatolian Greeks joined the Greek fighting forces directly after their forced relocation? It seems to me that relocated people might want to join in higher numbers than stable people. Were the Anatolian army groups integrated or segregated? If segregated, was there a kind of intra-military competition between contrasting units? Binksternet 23:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and it would be great material to add to the Treaty of Lausanne page. Binksternet 23:37, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello Bruno. I understand the intention of the passage you quoted, but what it actually said and implied is a different matter. True, the Greek army was very motivated, in part due to the Asia Minor disaster and the hardships involved in overcoming it. One must remember that in 1923, Greece was a country involved almost continuously at war since 1912, with an economy in ruins, with over 1.5 million refugees in addition to its "normal" population of 6+ million, internationally isolated and humiliated (e.g. the Corfu incident of 1923) and internally unstable. By 1940, a modest prosperity had been achieved again, despite the ups and downs of the inter-war years, and, despite Metaxas' dictatorship, the people certainly were willing to fight for it (somewhat like the Soviet Union in 1941). Then the Italians committed the blunder of sinking Helli on the day of one of our most holy feasts, and provided a perfect way for uniting all Greeks against them. In total, about a fourth of Greece's population in 1940 was of Anatolian origin, and certainly, they were perhaps more motivated than most (although, AFAIK, no study exists to that effect in Greek). But Mack Smith's quote, as added, implied that some mystical "Ottoman warrior spirit" was infused into them, and that is why Greeks won, and Italians lost. Aside from this being a very un-scholarly (and, to my eyes, very racially/nationally biased, like the "cowardly Italians" stuff) statement, it is quite untrue. As I mentioned, motivation was quite high amongst all strata of Greek society (Ciano's anticipated defections never occurred, and even the Communists initially supported the war). Also, Orthodox Greeks in the Ottoman Empire almost never served in its army, so where they would have got this spirit is unclear. BTW, the Janissaries stopped being recruited from among Christians already since the 18th century, and they were wiped out by the Sultan in 1826 as an impediment to reforms. Thus in WW1, there were no Janissaries in the Ottoman army, and very few Greeks (certainly not in front line units). Also, most Janissaries were actually recruited from the Balkans, not Asia Minor. Best regards, and thanks for the additions. Cplakidas 09:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

A fourth of Greek soldiers were from the refugees from Anatolia. That is a big chunk. That means a different mentality in all the greek army. A mentality similar to the greek Janissaries of the glorious times of our Ottoman Empire. Eteturk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.215.160.105 (talk) 19:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

As explained above, Greeks and Janissaries have had very little in common for the past few centuries. And to imply that a different mentality existed because of the different place of origin, and that, in effect, this 25% is the one which made all the difference, is not only historical nonsense, but also a remarkably racist POV... The Italian generals during the war may have held such views, trying to find a scapegoat for their failure, but this doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Cplakidas 15:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Without the turkish fighting mentality of the anatolian soldiers the greek army would have been defeated, like in Ataturk times when we liberated Izmir from the greek invasors. Only a racist Greek cannot see this fundamental difference of mentality and despise & ignore the turkish mentality of this 25%!! Wikipedia doesn't belong to Greeks!! Even Churchill hinted to the fact that the greek soldiers fought in Epirus against the Italians in a similar way to how fought the glorious Turks against his troops in Dardanelles in WWI!!!!!!!The problem is that you Greeks deny this historical evidence because hate us Turks and cannot accept that your only partial victory (the temporary reject of the Italians, who later won you) was because of the many anatolian soldiers in your army WITH TURKISH FIGHTING MENTALITY. This is historical evidence that is surfacing slowly but steadily, even if greeks racists don't like it.Eteturk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.231.201.42 (talk) 03:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

And attributing the success of an army of 350,000 of whom only 25% were from Anatolia, and where the vast majority of the officer corps was not from Anatolia, to this 25% is not racist and nationalist POV, I suppose. Or that some special "Turkish fighting mentality" exists, for that matter, which was somehow imparted to a population which had stopped being recruited as soldiers since the mid-17th century, and only fought in WW1 in small numbers because the Turks didn't trust them... Eteturk, if you have a problem with Greeks, take it elsewhere, not Wikipedia... Greeks from "Old Greece" and from Anatolia fought and died equally for their country in this campaign, and to insert ahistorical comments like that to prove some nationalist POV is extremely bad taste. Cplakidas 11:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

They were not only 25%, but at least 1/3. Their officials were mostly not anatolian greeks, but the real fight was done in the mountanous terrain of Epirus by soldiers, not by officials (who usually stay behind the front line). This is not nationalist POV, but analysis and conclusions/references of what written by Churchill, Mack Smith and others. Your is a disgusting POV, supported by not wikipedian erase of evidence.Eteturk

British combatants

There weren't any British combatants in this war... or were there? 85.17.201.14 13:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

There was a British participation in that several RAF squadrons operated from Greece against the Italians. More on this will be added shortly. Cplakidas 15:15, 17 October 2007

(UTC)

THE WARRIOR MENTALITY OF THE OTTOMANS

The Anatolian Greeks had "the warrior mentality of the Ottomans", according to the serious scholar Mack Smith. Why Cplakidas wants to erase this evidence? This is wikipedia, and every admin knows the rules of impartiality and objectivity. Those anatolian Greeks grew for centuries in the Ottoman empire and assimilated the fighting mentality of the Turks. They brought to the greek army in Epirus their "warrior mentality" -supported even by the rage for their forced exodus- and this factor caught by surprise the italian generals who had just seen the greek army defeated by our beloved Ataturk. We are NOT talking of the greek Janissaries, but of the "warrior mentality" of the anatolian greeks. It is racist and nationalistic to erase the evidences! And it NOT wikipedian to erase evidences from a serious english scholar like Mack Smith. Eteturk.

Firstly, you will see that the origin of the 25% is clearly mentioned, and even that the Italians used this as a reason for their defeat. Secondly, what irritates me is the slant you are trying to put in this argument, to the effect that a) an "Ottoman fighting mentality" existed, which b) was transmitted to the Anatolian Greeks and c) is responsible for the Greek success in repulsing the Italians. Concerning a), while I do not dispute the martial prowess of the Ottomans, I am dead against any idea of a racial or national "spirit" or "mentality" which somehow makes them superior warriors.

Why you always talk of Racism? A fighting mentality is a social characteristic developed in history by all populations under special and influential leaders.

The same nonsense is what Hitler and the Nazis claimed for the Germans, for heaven's sake... As for b), as explained over and over again, the Greeks in Anatolia were merchants, farmers and workers, not soldiers. How this mentality could have been imparted to them from the Ottoman Turks, is not clear, unless it came genetically or via the soil... c) to attribute (indirectly but quite clearly) the success of the entire Greek army to this particular 25% and to this "warrior mentality", is pushing racial prejudices to the extreme. Dennis Mack Smith may be a serious scholar, but this particular statement of opinion (and, if I may say so, prejudice), taken from the self-serving memoirs of the Italian generals, who were anxious to explain their defeat, cannot be taken for definite and indisputable proof that what he says is true.

Who are you to criticize a renowned scholar like Mack Smith?

Last week James D. Watson said that blacks were not as intelligent as whites, but noone will cite that as serious proof that these differences actually exist... But, as afar as I can see, what bothers you is my refusal to accept the existence of a "warrior mentality" transmittable through unclear means to some populations and not others.

What has to do Watson with all this discussion? Don't go out of topic with strange excuses of racism!

You (and Mack Smith) seem to forget the fact that all Greeks had lived, for several centuries, under Ottoman rule. So why did this not impart to all of them (and the Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians etc) this stupendous "warrior mentality", but limited itself only to the Anatolian Greeks (whose majority, BTW, did not even fight in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922))?

The Anatolian Greeks received the ottoman influence in their way of fighting and behaving in war for many more generations than those in the Balkans. We Turks were between them since Manzikurt.

I do not dispute that they, just as the non-Anatolian Greeks, fought valiantly, but to attribute this success to racial backgrounds has nothing to do with modern-day science or history. If you persist on this, I'll have no choice but to go through WP:RFC. Cplakidas 11:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't want fights with RFC, but I request help from other forumers against your erase of evidences! Eteturk

The position that Greek military success was due to an "Ottoman mentality" is so laughable that it is almost hard to argue with it... Should I bring up the fact that the Ottomans had been trounced by every European army for the past four centuries?

You are an ignorant: what about Crete, to name only one?

Or the fact that the majority of the army was made up of mainland Greeks? That the modern officer corp of the Greek army has traditionally been Peloponnesian? Or that the Italian strategy in the campaign was quite poor? That the Greeks had a very defensible position? To attribute Greek military success to any "Ottoman mentality" is just ludicrous. I wonder why Italy was able to lick Turkey so harshy in the Italo-Turkish war in 1911, was it because of the Southern Italian's Greek heritage :-P

Again, you show ignorance. Many Italian historians accuse the southern Italians (with their Balkanized mentality, because they are full of Albanians and Greeks) of most of their defeats in the last century (from Lissa to WWII).

Please don't bring up ridiculous racist ideas when we are talking about serious military matters.

So what if one British historian made one statement-- historians are not infallible. For example, I could quote a racist remark by a newspaper, it does not make it the gospel truth. The New York Tribune told its readers in the year 1919:

the Turks have always been a parasite and a stench in the nostrils of civilization

The fact that something was published does not make it the truth, please use common sense.

But the historian statement is an opinion and MUST be taken in consideration in Wikipedia. Who are you to criticize a scholar like Mack Smith AND ERASE HIS OPINION from Wikipedian articles? This is real lack of common sense!!

AlexiusComnenus 18:50, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

A "fighting mentality" indeed is a social characteristic, but it is exactly for those reasons that the Greeks of Anatolia cannot possibly have had anything to do with an Ottoman fighting mentality, since they were entirely uninvolved with the Ottoman military system, or any military system, for that matter, for at least 2 and a half centuries.

This is ridiculous. For two centuries and half no Anatolian Greek has ever been involved with the ottoman military system? You are going to make laugh every serious scholar of this world!

How much clearer can I say this? Unless you try to say that this mentality is transmitted via genes or other ways, which is ludicrous, there is no basis for Mack Smith's argument. To argue anything else is to try to belittle the achievement of the Greek army by attributing it to some fantastical notion of an "imported mentality", and indirectly imply that otherwise Greeks wouldn't have fought successfully. If that isn't nationalistic anti-Greek bias, then what is?

No it is not "nationalistic anti-Greek bias". It is the reality. Look at what has happened with the Germans: Napoleon considered the German soldiers the WORST fighters, he refused to accept Bavarian farmers in his Army; but after one century of Prussian influence in the mentality of the German people, look how the German soldiers behaved in the two world wars!

As to who I am, I am someone who uses reason, and that comment that Mack Smith made certainly does not stand up to any objective evaluation.

Who are you to do an "objective evaluation" of a scholar like Mack Smith?

As for bringing up Watson, my point is that respected scholars are also humans, and that sometimes they say and write nonsense (Watson and his work on DNA helped disprove the supposed genetic differences between races, and yet he made racist comments), and that it is up to our critical ability to distinguish what is what. Cplakidas 23:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, what has to do Watson with this topic? You are so racist that write of racism everywhere!Eteturk

WARNING:IT IS A LOSS OF TIME TO TRY TO CONVINCE FANATICS

Warning:It is a loss of time to try to convince fanatics like Plakidas. They will erase even the evidences brought by serious scholars!

A "fighting mentality" indeed is a social characteristic, admits Cplakidas. That means that it is created, modified and increased/reduced by external social factors. The Anatolian Greeks were influenced by the fighting mentality of the Ottomans for many centuries, this is an undeniable fact. The same has happened with the Germans (despised by Napoleon and judged terrible warriors in WWII) under the Prussian mentality during the nineteenth century. But I am sure that nationalists like Cplakidas (and friends) will deny all this forever.

Without the turkish fighting mentality of the anatolian soldiers the greek army would have been defeated, like in Ataturk times when we liberated Izmir from the greek invasors. Only a nationalist Greek cannot see this fundamental difference of mentality and despise & ignore the turkish mentality of this 25/30%!! Wikipedia doesn't belong to Greeks!! Even Churchill hinted to the fact that the greek soldiers fought in Epirus against the Italians in a similar way to how fought the glorious Turks against his troops in Dardanelles in WWI!!!!!!!The problem is that you Greeks deny this historical evidence because hate us Turks and cannot accept that your only partial victory in modern history (the temporary reject of the Italians, who later won you) was because of the many anatolian soldiers (in your army) WITH TURKISH FIGHTING MENTALITY. This is historical evidence that is surfacing slowly but steadily, even if greeks fanatics don't like it.

My complain is a last WARNING to the admins and all the not partialized forumers. Eteturk.

First, please stop entering your comments in between our replies. It is messing up the text. For the n-th time, Anatolian Greeks were not recruited in the Ottoman Army, from the mid-17th century to the early 1900s, and then, they were almost never sent to actual front line units. That is a fact, accepted by historians. So how on Earth could they be affected by these social factors that constitute a "fighting mentality" if they never served in an army? You can take a million Prussians, Cossacks or even Huns, if you do not give them any military training for 2 centuries, what sort of "fighting mentality" will they have? And what is this nonsense you write about Napoleon and the Germans being considered bad warriors? Do the names Frederick the Great or Aspern-Essling ring a bell? Napoleon included a whole Bavarian Corps in his Grande Armee, and tens of thousands of troops from the other German states... And the Prussian mentality served them oh, so well, during WW1 and WW2, so that, of course, they prevailed against the feeble, un-warrior like Western democracies... Hah! Talk about outdated stereotypes... If you are accusing me of being a nationalist fanatic, what should one make of your comments about Greeks? When Churchill wrote "like Gallipoli", he was using a well-known illustration of bravery, but did not have any meaning beyond that. It is just like saying that "X fought like the Spartans at Thermopylae". No one would then go on and argue that a "inherited Spartan spirit" guided them. You are not presenting any arguments, but have merely found a statement by one scholar which suits your POV and just won't listen to reason. Anyway, I am passing this on to RfC below... Cplakidas 17:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments on the Ottoman mentality dispute

There are a host of reasons why eteturk's comments are totally ridiculous... we could mention the fact that Christians including Anatolian Greeks were not allowed to serve in the Ottoman military, or the fact that mainland Greeks beat the pants off of the Ottomans in 1912, as did the Italians in 1911, and as did the Russians, English, Bulgarians, Serbs, Montenegrins and a host of other European powers.

Attributing racial/national characteristics as reasons for military success are just examples of the fascist ideologies of Nazism, Mussolinism and Kemalism, and have no impact on serious scholarly discourse. AlexiusComnenus 21:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It is not the Wikipedian's job to decide weather such a "fighting mentality" (or whatever...) exists or not but to improve articles. And I really do not see how the inclusion of such a small phrase improves this article. But, for the shake of argument, let's accept for the moment that weather or not the Greek soldiers had a certain "ottoman fighting mentality" was a decisive factor that influenced the course of the war. If so, it would be desirable to have more than one source to confirm that. After all, I do suspect that Mack Smith's phrase has been isolated, misused and out of context (bad faith yes, but this talk page isn't that encouraging). So, to put it bluntly: if more scholarly work on the effect of the "ottoman fighting mentality" on the Greco-Italian war can be found by the concerned user, then let's have it. Otherwise, all we have here is a lame case of WP:POINT. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 11:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Put it more bluntly: bring you and your greek friends evidence from a scholar that the opinion of Mack Smith is wrong about the ottoman mentality of the anatolian Greeks. Otherwise let's accept it, because the racist accusations of some nationalist Greeks are not based on any serious argument supported by scholars. Kemal

It's an insignificant, inappropriate, POVish piece of information. Contributions of User:209.215.160.102 suggest that it's no worth dealing with it. Remove Odysses (☜) 12:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... I thought that "national fighting mentality" theories was popular with certain types of late victorian chauvinists, not in 2007 wikipedia articles?--victor falk 17:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Every human present on Earth is descended from successful fighters or they wouldn't be here. That said, maybe the Anatolian soldiers battled more fiercely than the Greeks fighting alongside. I believe that it's possible for an army to be strengthened or stiffened by the inclusion of a small proportion of fanatic fighters; that's not the issue. What I wonder is who was the more motivated soldier: recently dispossessed Anatolians or the long-time Greeks who were fighting to hold the soil they'd been born on? I haven't yet seen solid evidence that either was more effective. Binksternet 18:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Only in GREEK WIKIPEDIA we can see a refusal of what write scholars, because not accepted by greek opinions. T.Y.

I DON'T SEE A RACIAL OFFENSE ON THE "OTTOMAN FIGHTING MENTALITY" SENTENCE. I SEE ONLY A CONTROVERSIAL POINT OF VIEW OF A SCHOLAR, LIKE MANY WE CAN READ IN MANY TOPICS OF HUMAN KNOWLEDGE. WHAT I SEE -CLEARLY- IS THAT A GROUP OF GREEKS WANT TO ERASE THE OPINION OF A SCHOLAR. THEY SHOULD WRITE THEIR POV NEXT TO THE OPINION OF THE SCHOLAR MACK SMITH: THAT IS THE WAY WIKIPEDIA WORKS. EVEN IF THEY DISAGREE WITH THE SCHOLAR, THE GREEK CPLAKIDAS-ALEXIUS COMNENUS-MIKALIS FAMELIS-ODYSSES SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT WIKIPEDIA IS OPEN TO ALL OPINIONS AND POINTS OF VIEW AND THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO DECIDES WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT ALLOWED TO BE WRITTEN! I PERSONALLY AGREE TO PLACE BOTH POINTS OF VIEW: THE GREEK AND THE SCHOLAR TOGETHER IN THE ARTICLE. THEN WE WIKIPEDIA READERS WILL JUDGE. FRANK R.

Racial oriented, unsupported ,profoundly unfounded bitter comments driven by the famous colonial arrogance which seeks answers into stupid unscientific idealistic theories even expressed by God himself doesn't make them worth mentioning.Eagle of Pontus 18:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest to follow the opinions of Smith & Churchill instead of that of greek nationalists that write childish Lol and rant about supposed racism. Kemal

(responding to RfC) I have some familiarity with the history of this era, and would be happy to review sources. Are there any which actually use the term "Ottoman fighting mentality"? If not, the phrase should probably be avoided. --Elonka 01:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, why don't you read the references by yourself and investigate what is in the indicated page? Kemal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.77.23.98 (talk) 17:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Lol

That's unbelievably funny.I myself am a Pontic-Greek but i can't stop laughing since seeing those comments.I can't believe that there is anyone above the age of 5 and with a minimum 60IQ level who can seriously believe what our "Ottoman mentality" friend supports.Hahaha.Still can't stop laughing.Eagle of Pontus 13:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The comment is too much childish for wikipedia: be serious, kid. Kemal

After all this discussion on a single phrase by "serious scholar" Mack Smith, we do not have an article on the scholar, any idea of his/her ideological views, the context of the phrase or the sources used for it. Should not Kemal expand on this before treating Smith as an authority on the subject?

Was this phrase included in "Italy: A Modern History" by Denis Mack Smith? Questia has the complete text of the book but gives its publication date as 1959. Which might account for the racist terminology used but might still give us a view on the subject from this period.

Could the name-calling cease and some research commence? User:Dimadick —Preceding comment was added at 08:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• I agree. Could someone with access to the book copy and paste an excerpt of the cite where "ottoman fighting mentality" appears here so we might judge it?--victor falk 08:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• what if he said so.Is it based on what grounds?Even if God himself expressed an opinion that doesn't make it more than an opinion!First of all what Ottoman mentality means, how is defined ,what makes it different from another mentality and in which way has demonstrated itself in history (defeat by a handful of Greeks in 1821 ,Balkan wars, Russo-Turkish wars World War 1 etc etc) secondly how this can be transferred to other people and by whom thirdly how it can be measured, forth is it absolute? (everyone single one had it?) sixth if so what was the proportion of refugees off springs battling in WW2 and in Italian front in particular and last but not least GET A LIFE YOU RETARDED TURK.(My best wishes to all fellow Greeks today the 67th anniversary of the "OXI" day )Eagle of Pontus 13:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• Please be civil. Not being never helps your arguments, no matter how right they are.--victor falk 13:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The comments made by Italian officers should be rejected as pure conjecture, not based on statistical, sociological or even military facts. Since the population exchange took place in 1923-24, Greek refugees fighting in 1940 would have to be 34 years or older to have received training in the Turkish military. Since the vast majority of recruited men would have been younger than this age, it is simply silly to claim that these men had any relation to the tactics or morale of Turkish soldiers of World War I, any more than they bare resemblance to any other fighter fighting for his country. As such, the comments add no value to this article and should be removed. --Ferengi 12:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

What else the Greeks want erased and removed? They behave like the owners of the English Wikipedia.Kemal

Furthermore, Christians typically did not serve in combat in the Ottoman army. Only after the Hat-i Sherif of Gulhane in the 1850s were Christians allowed to serve, and typically they went in labor battalions rather than combat battalions. 212.201.82.183 23:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Or maybe the Greeks from Anatolia knew better what it means to live under occupation so they might have fought more bravely not "because" of Ottomans, but actually in spite of them, but again those speculations even if done by people at that time should not be included into an Encyclopedia. -- AdrianTM 07:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with that, if nothing else because the Anatolians Greeks, having more to lose, had a reason to fight harder. I also agree that is speculative (no offense to Dennis Mack), and should not be included in the article.--victor falk 11:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

• I totally disagree with that. I can start erasing all the greek speculations in the article, for example. There are many. Kemal
  • Read WP:POINT, but feel free to remove speculations. -- AdrianTM 16:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I read WP:POINT, but you too, AdrianTM, should read it. These are not speculations of wikipedians, since are referenced:<<After the war, Italian commanders like General Prasca would compare the stubborn Greek resistance in Epirus with that of the Turks in the Dardanelles in World War I, and even go as far as attributing it to the large numbers of Anatolian Greeks serving in the Greek army (about one fourth of the recruits were from Anatolia) after the population exchange of 1923-24.[9] Furthermore, the English scholar Mack Smith wrote that many Greek recruits were the sons of those Greeks forced to move to the Kingdom of Greece. He added even that the Anatolian Greeks had the warrior mentality of the Ottomans.[10]>>. The first paragraph was written by the greek Plakidas and the references 9 and 10 can be found at the bottom of the article. Sincerely I don't see any racism in the above paragraphs, but I see a reality fact that can irritate only the most fanatic Greeks. And this irritated behaviour is NOT wikipedian. Many articles in Wikipedia irritate someone, but the admins defend the objectivity and the different opinions of all of us: of course, this is different if we are in the Greek Wikipedia, but I believe we are in the English Wikipedia. Aren't we?Kemal