Talk:Womyn

This article was nominated for deletion on 25/9/2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

NPOV Discussions

I don't see anything biased about the page... --Phroziac 19:21, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How do you pronounce this word? It looks it'd be "Whoa-Mine".

--Karmafist 08:01, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's pronounced the same.

Article should also point out, that they are badly mistaken (totally ignorant of the roots and bending the language):

"history"/herstory: that's nothing to do with "his" or "hers", it stems from the Latin/Greek root (historia/istoria).
"woman": "man" was originally used for both sexes, compare Latin "homo" (sometimes sapiens), then differentiated to "wifman" > "wimman" > woman, meaning a female human being.

--Palapala 18:04, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

But what happened to words specifying a "male human being"? Gone; because the male is the norm. In present day english, "man" means "male human being", changing that is one of the reasons for "womyn", "wymyn" and similar.

Actually, that statement is incorrect. The word "man" does not necessary mean "male human being", in certain contexts, it is gender neutral. --SpinyNorman 04:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

For example, the original Star Trek's usage of "Where no man has gone before" was meant as gender-neutral, not as only men. Or the Lord of the Rings books refers to the race of "Men", meaning humans. "Men" is intended to be gender-neutral, but because of the shift in our language over the century where laws referring to the rights of "men" were legally used to exclude women from voting, amongst other things, the term "man/men" as gender-neutral carries with it a lot of political volitility. "Man" can still refer to either the gender or be gender neutral.. but in a more politically correct context it will refer to males only. --24.141.169.231 06:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I dont think feminists know how the english language phonetically works. It would obviously be like the previous stated whoa-mine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.99.22.3 (talk • contribs) .

Modern English, because it promiscuously borrows words from every other language, no longer has a single pronunciation; that's why phonics as a method of teaching English reading is such a bad joke.

Atlant 23:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Both the origin and current usage of the two words are already gender-neutral and any attempt to exaggerate this by creating new terms is pointless. - I could see this line being taken as NPOV. Marsman57

NPOV

This article ignores that many people consider this a trivial issue which distracts from the larger feminist struggle. It is focused only on the benefits of changing the word. -- 129.170.202.34 13:20, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Struggle? Keep your bloody POV the hell out of this article please. And please note that Feminism is discriminatory as well. Unless you are really supporting that kind of nonsense, stick to Egalitarianism, please. -- unsigned

Feminism in general is only discriminatory vs misogynists -- there are different versions of Feminism that definitely have these biases, but to say in general it is discriminatory is itself a rather baseless attack without evidence. Simply stated, in general, Feminism is "the radical idea that women are persons."--Dalar 06:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article IS about changing the word. It references the article on Feminism, so that's where your "larger feminist struggle" goes. And contrary to what you may believe, trying to enforce an artificial terminology for everyday language is NOT a trivial issue. It's a rather radical one. The issue it is trying to solve, OTOH, may be considered trivial (although the proper question would be whether it is anywhere close to being the right tool for the job). Ashmodai 14:39, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Words that are not related

This article says something that implies that many people think the words "his" and "history" are related, but I don't think they really are. Are there lots of pairs of words in the English language that people play with as if they were related but that really aren't?? Another example is "hello" and "hell" I stumbled across a few Internet sites that say that "hello" should be changed to "heaven-O". 66.245.97.131 17:22, 25 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I took out the section on etymology and mentions of the words "womynfacture" and "huwomynity" because both of those words (with which the etymology section deals) return vanishingly few google hits. I accordingly suspect them of being straw [wo]men. (For comparison, "womyn" returns 101,000 and "herstory" 521,000.) - Montréalais 01:40, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I suspect that "herstory" returns so many hits because of typos.....many of the hits you received likely should have read "her story".

Objectivity?

This article is very biased. --Stilanas 01:34, 5 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That is a very compelling argument you have there. Must have taken a good long think to come up with those points. --Dalar 06:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, now, let's see:

historical and ongoing social subordination of women.: In many countries, yes; but the women that are actually complaining about most issues come from wealthy industrialized countries. I know for a fact that in the United States females tend to receive a lot more care than males do and tend to have a more accepted range of expression. By that, I refer to everything from simple things like programs specifically for girls in school (When was the last time you saw a "Whitaker Fund for the Education of Young Men," or something along those lines? It's unheard of.) to more important issues like sexual abuse charges. When female teachers abuse their students, they often get off with two or less years; males spend 10 or 20 years in jail. I could come up with many examples, but these are somewhat pertinent so I'll leave it at that.

since the word "man" is seen as an exclusively male term, implying that women are a subset of men, or a deviation from the norm.: Of course this one must be true. Especially since the English language has been using "mankind" or "the age of man" to refer to the human race for how long? Another example is saying something like "you guys." If there are girls and guys in the group, this is (colloquially, at least, where the term is used) perfectly acceptable. Furthermore, one could just as easily say that the "wo" prefix makes it so that women are superior to men, and not inferior.

The rest of the article seems good; the only reason I contend the first two statements is because they are put off as fact rather than opinion. The rest of the opinion also happens to be biased feminist garbage, but at least the authors made the distinction between what is believed and what is reality. Robinson0120 07:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article seems reasonable

The article seems to me to be a reasonable assessment of the use of the expression "womyn". I first saw it, actually, in a socialist poster saying "Womyn own 1% of the world's wealth", and I did get the purpose after a while.

The article itself is not biased even if the use of "womyn", "womon", "herstory" etc. is biased. --Phroziac 19:21, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Disputed - Attributing to radical feminism

I question whether the term is appropriately attributed to radical feminism. While I realize that the writings of such women as Andrea Dworkin, Catharine MacKinnon, and Susan Brownmiller hardly comprise an exhausitve list of radical feminism's writings, I haven't encountered it anywhere in them. Plus, the reasoning behind the spelling strikes me as more typical of separatist feminism. Can someone trace the origin of "womyn" to a self- and widely- identified radical feminist?

The Literate Engineer 08:38, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi Literate Engineer. If you see something which requires further research - then great, research it and update the article. This makes wikipedia a better place to live. However this is not a dispute. Maybe it constitutes a factual error, but I don't see a dispute, or even how it could be an NPOV issue.

The term might not be used in Dworkin's writings, however, it might come from the grassroots feminist organising of the Rad Fem tendency. It also might arise from, as you say, a different tendency such as seperatist feminism. In this case, you can change the first sentence to read "Womyn is a term used by many some feminists to take the "men" out of the word women" (or some such) and thus neutralise any attendant inaccuracy. I also note that the first sentence doesn't attribute the origin of the term - merely its current use.

NB: New items go at the end of the talk page, which is where I'm moving this item. Cheers, An An 15:04, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Womban / Wombat

Does one need a disambiguation page that points to Wombat, since the use of the word womban may confuse readers? It certainly confused me. --Confused Reader 19:52, 8 Jul 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't think so as Womban is distinct from Wombat, and is pronounced the same as Woman. An An 00:41, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In German

A recent editor added the following text (which Atlant moved here):

<edit 09/11/05 first-language German speaker>

The German word for man is Mann, and the German word for woman is Frau. Herr and Dame are Mr. or gentleman and Mrs. or lady respectively. They have no bearing on this issue.

<end edit>

To me, this comment would seem more-relevant if we were discussing Ms..

Atlant 11:28, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, he is right. However Herr and Dame also have the meaning of gentleman/lady, as he said.

The whole dämlich/herrlich thing is false etymology again (in fact, apart from a few radical feminists few people ever think of that "relation" in a normal state of mind).

The correct adjectives for "gentleman-like" or "lady-like" (which is the implied original meaning) would be damenhaft and (I assume) herrenhaft, neither word has a negative connotation (not counting the negative flair of the word Herr because of the Third Reich term Herrenrasse (master race, since Herr can also mean master -- the female equivalent being Herrin)). Ashmodai 22:28, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

moving POV text

I just cut most of this paragraph out of the article and am moving it here. It is pretty much all POV. I fail to see, for example, how what some women or womyn, choose to call themselves constitutes "violence against men." Carptrash 23:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Misandrists (those who hate men) and female suprememcist groups have used this vocabulary as a way to engage in violence against men. This word was especially prominent in women only circles especially in the San Francisco Bay region in the 1970's. Many female supremcists groups - often masquerading as feminists - continue to practice their attacks on men and anything male and espousing their violent philosophies. One might even attempt to edit a conflicting point of view in an online encyclopedia for example. In addition, it is worthy to note while there remains a "violence against women act" no such similar rights are given the male gender. A disparity often ignored by the "womyn" groups who often call out "equality now!"

It was re-added and I re-removed it. Paul3144 02:45, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

and here it is again

Misandrists (those who hate men) and female suprememcist groups have used this vocabulary as a way to engage in violence against men. This word was especially prominent in women only circles especially in the San Francisco Bay region in the 1970's. Many female supremcists groups - often masquerading as feminists - continue to practice their attacks on men and anything male and espousing their violent philosophies. One might even attempt to edit a conflicting point of view in an online encyclopedia for example. In addition, it is worthy to note while there remains a "violence against women act" no such similar rights are given the male gender. -- By An Unsigned Person

Technically, all countries that have a "violence against women" act already have a "violence against men" act.. those would be the laws that existed before the violence against women acts.--Dalar 06:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nice comment, Dalar. Couldn't feel the bias. The fact is, however, that while women have SPECIFIC laws that punish violence against them (regardless of whether it was motivated by "hate" or not), men do not. If you can find any literature to the contrary, I'd be delighted to see it.Robinson0120 22:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How many rapes out of 10,000 are perpetrated by females? maybe 1? The situation is hardly symmetrical. MotherFunctor 18:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other Languages

Perhaps there is this controversy in english... but it is completely non-existance in other languages, such as spanish or portuguese (and certainly others), which therefore lets us conclude that it cant be that serious of an issue, just a local unrest by some people.

this is not surprising since we are discussing an English word. However I doubt that in any other language such words are considered to be "violence against men." And how does Womyn translate into Spanish or Portuguese anyway? Carptrash 19:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There's some interesting discussion of gender bias in the French language in Monique Wittig's introduction to her book The Lesbian Body. In the book she uses alternate spellings for personal pronouns.

Womban/Wombat

I agree with a previous reader(ess?), I was a first struck with the similarities in Womban and Wombat. Consequently, I could not help but laugh hysterically. In fact, I plan to call all future feminists I encounter wombats and advise others to do so in hopes of it becoming an accepted alternative to Women. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.200.84 (talk • contribs)

Neutrality and recent changes

I've removed the "neutrality disputed" tag from the article. I didn't see any arguments on this discussion page supporting the notion that the current version of the article is non-neutral. If you want to re-add the NPOV tag, please also use this page to discuss why you think it's called for.

I also made some small changes that hopefully make the article more inclusive and neutral. I attribute the support of the new spellings to "some feminists" rather than "some radical feminists", and I added a sentence to the effect that some feminists consider the issue a "trivial distraction". (Please note the "some" before you get pissed at me.) I really think the article does a good job of presenting all (rational) views of the issue in a neutral way. KarlBunker 17:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good work, but doesn't wikpedia consider that "weasel words"?

Yeah, saying "some feminists" view them as a "trivial distraction" = weasel words. Find an actual source making this argument or don't bring it up.

Strange accusation, in my opinion. It seems obvious that it's a trivial distraction, and many feminists are highly intelligent, I think the statement is obvious and needs no qualifying. MotherFunctor 18:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Beavis & Butthead episode

I would love to give the Beavis & Butthead episode Womyn (episode 40 season 5), a mention where that word were brought forward to a lot of people outside the US, what do you think? Willirennen 4 April 2006, 13.24

Gender bias

The article refers to 'women' using these alternative spellings. This ignores the fact that many males, myself included, also use them. The idea that "feminism is for girls" pretty much flies in the face of, well, feminism.

You should sign your posts. I have no idea when you made the above comment, I could of course look in the history but I don't see why I should have to. In any case, in the current version, it says used by feminists not women/womyn. Indeed, saying that the term womyn is used by women is kind of akward to say the least. Nil Einne 21:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Other languages

This has been hinted at before but I feel this is an approriate article to discuss whether this is an issue in other languages. For example, from above it appears it isn't an issue in German. I can't think it'll be an issue in Malay either. Obviously the words themselves won't be womyn or man etc but whether this issue occurs is still relevant. Nil Einne 21:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This should redirect to Woman

Seeing as how that is what it refers toTrevorLSciAct 23:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Um........ No. KarlBunker 00:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

hahaha..--Ablablablablabla 08:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's clear that the article is discussing a political concept which is pretty separate from our generic article about women. I believe the article should stay right here.

Atlant 13:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Womynism // Women of Color Feminism

This is "feminism" with a women-of-color consciousness. It is a reaction to white, middle-class, liberal feminists lack of analysis of the intersection of RACE and GENDER. Womynism is very much linked to Third-wave feminism.

Neutrality?

"Womyn is one of a number of alternate spellings of the word "woman", which some feminists use." Implies a feminist viewpoint, there are no alternate spellings of woman in modern English.

Should read, "Womyn is one of many bastardisations of the word "woman", which some feminists use." Syphon8 03:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]