Talk:Sahaja Yoga

Archives
Oct 2005 - 3 June 2006 June 2006 - October 2006 October 2006 - December 2006 December 2006 - May 2007 June 2007 - December 2007

Correction to Information on Marriage Forms

{{editprotected}} The Marriage section currently states "Sahaja Yoga hosts a voluntary arranged marriage system. In India those interested need to fill in a form detailing their backgrounds." There are 2 problems with this: firstly, the page referenced has been blanked and should be changed to an archived version; secondly, the words 'In India' should be removed as this is an international site and the page does not mention that the forms are only for people in India.--Simon D M (talk) 10:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If the site no longer states that then it shouldn't be used as a source. Also the mirror of the source mentions the marriages being held in India. Sfacets 11:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, the page was on the site for 2 years and gives important information. Secondly, there is no harm in mentioning that the marriages are held in India, but one should not suggest that the forms only apply to those living in India. Indeed the form asks for nationality as well as country of residence (as well as income in dollars). --Simon D M (talk) 12:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The question isn't about what the forms ask - it is wether the forms are used in different countries. The mirror of the link you provided describes marriages held in India and is 2 years old. Conceviably something has changed in that period - which could be why the page no longer exists. Sfacets 12:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Correct, and the fact the form asks what country the applicant is in, demonstrates that it is used in different countries. The fact that such forms are used in different countries (eg the US) is further demonstrated by thispage. A similar marriage form can also be found on the Romanian SY site and is dated 2007.--Simon D M (talk) 13:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it shows that people of different nationalities got married in India that year. Add a real reference if you have one. Sfacets 13:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

That people of different nationalities get married in India is exactly what I have been saying all along. However, thispage shows that forms are also used for marriages in the US. --Simon D M 13:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

So use that link. Sfacets 13:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

That link does not link to the forms. --Simon D M 13:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Too bad you can't have it both ways then. Sfacets 13:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, the originally suggested link is valid. That validity is supported, and your objections overridden, by the other links. --Simon D M 15:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

But it isn't valid... since it is no longer on the website. Sfacets 21:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Webpages disappear for all sorts of reasons, and their disappearance doesn't make the information they contained invalid. If a page is still available through the Wayback machine then it's still verifiable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

N Edit declined. No consensus at this time. Sandstein 06:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Linking to a webarchive is perfectly acceptable according to Wikipedia policy. It's interesting that after being up for over 2 years, the page suddenly got blanked when WP linked to it. It's as if somebody has got something to hide. --Simon D M 13:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Kennedy would agree. Sfacets 08:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

This SY page mentions that 82 couples were married in a Crhistmas Puja.[1] Even better, the Queensland Independent has an article on SY marriage.[2] Among other things it says:

• PEOPLE from all over the world were married last month, in a ceremony arranged by the Sahaja Yoga religious organisation at Olympic Park, Sydney. Australian Andrew Bonneau, 25, met his Austrian wife, Sweater Lachine, 23, the day before the wedding ceremony....Leader of Sahaja Yoga in Cairns, Sno Bonneau, said that of the thousands of applications received, only 180 were successful. The marriage ceremony has received much criticism from members of other religious groups....Long-time Sahaja Yogi, Judith Bowden, agreed that there were often massive challenges in making a Sahaja marriage work.

That should be a sufficient source for the existence of arranged marriages. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Sfacets is quibbling about the arranged marriage sytem, rather that the same forms (and therefore system) is used in India as in the rest of the world. I've already provided evidence of the forms being used in other countries. The case is closed unless we need to go through a '2 systems' discussion similar to the previous '2 Bohdans' and '2 SY schools in India'. --Simon D M (talk) 11:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You provided no evidence that form were utilized in other countries. Sfacets 10:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You need to read more carefully, I have already stated above that the fact the form asks what nationality the applicant is and what country the applicant is in, demonstrates that it is used in different countries by different nationalities. The fact that such forms are used in different countries (eg the US) is further demonstrated by thispage. A similar marriage form can also be found on the Romanian SY site and is dated 2007. Like the 2 Bohdans and the 2 India schools, you know just as well as I do that there is only one system. --Simon D M (talk) 10:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

1. There is no form on the first link. 2. Second link point on a blank page. 3. We do not understand "2 bodhans" "2 india schools" etc… 4. A suggestion : India = one country / Pakistan = another country = 2 countries differents nationalities possible cqfd.--Agenor 77 (talk) 10:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

1) The forms are referred to. 2) It links to an Excel spreadsheet with the form on, the same one as is on the International site, if you don't have Excel view it in html here. 3) Previous spurious objections. 4) If you are trying to suggest that the forms are only used in the Indian subcontinent then it's news to me that it includes LA and Romania. C'mon guys, give it up, you're not doing yourselves any favours by fighting to suppress a truth that we all know: there's one system, it operates worldwide, it involves the use of forms filled in by the applicant and a leader. Here's another link to the forms on the international site: http://www.sahajayoga.org/swan/view/swan_569_2006.asp - go check it quick before the powers that be hide it. Again, no mention that it's only for Indians, or denizens of the Greater Indian Subcontinent (includes LA and Romania). --Simon D M (talk) 11:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No fighting, it is only in your mind. Nobody try to hide anything true here. Just avoiding guys turning upside down everything, I can even say that I got married in Sahaja Yoga. This suggestion has been done by a very good friend. I felt in my heart that he was giving me a good advice. So, I did it. Shri Mataji introduced us to each other (my futur wife and I). We were both pleased appreciating eahc other and then decided to accept (because we could refuse incase you'll try to make people think that it is forced). We are now married since 16 years. 16 year of happiness in a solid and trustfull mariage :) I really have hesitate to write down my reply here, because it's quite personnal and no one wish to talk with someone who will dirt every single word of his own testimony. But in another way, as we can find here people who really dedicated their entire life to spoil such a great hope for humanity, peace giving and love giving, I felt better to give a real testimony. --Agenor 77 (talk) 12:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No problem with that, Mataji did arrange marriages personally, and some of them turned out happy, no doubt about it. However, I'm sure you'd agree that the proportion personally arranged has reduced over time and is not many today, especially since Mataji's 'retirement'. The system referred to on the various links is one international system that includes the use of forms, a practice that has been going on for more than 2 decades. I even cited the official website as saying that Mataji matches the couples in this system, although we all know nowadays that is not true, and in fact it hasn't been true for over 2 decades (although those being matched did not know this). Of course one can argue that all things are done by the Goddess, but that's another issue. I've never suggested that SY marriages are forced, although sometimes there is considerable pressure on people. And I agree that many good Sahaja Yogis have dedicated their entire lives to what they believe is the great hope for humanity, peace and love. --Simon D M (talk) 13:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Either your research on SY aren't complete etiher you misandesrtood your obesrvations/notes because it is not "some of them turned out happy" but most of all of them :) Therefore I don't enjoy to work here on wikipedia, because there is too many people who knows how to spoil good things by cunningly biase the main things by editing article in a tricky maner. --Agenor 77 (talk) 16:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

People editing articles in a tricky manner? Yes, that is a problem. Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Sahajhist ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

My reply is here [[3]] Sahajhist 22:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The official line is that they are 99% or 95% successful. A year or 2 ago G de K sent round a message admitting that the breakdown rate was around 35% in the first year (I forget the exact figure). Many of those that don't break down are because those in the marriage are gritting their teeth through what they believe is a test by God and/or because they have children. The latter issue doesn't go away even after the couple have left Sahaja Yoga and is discussed in Coney's book. When just one spouse leaves, obviously there are other problems. There are problems outside of SY as well, but these aren't being covered up to the same degree. --Simon D M (talk) 11:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Religion organization category

• Shri Mataji has made us aware that all the religions are from the same principle and are to be respected by all of us. She has founded a global religion, Vishwa Nirmala Dharma, which is the innate pure religion, relating to the core experience at the roots of all religions, and She grants this experience to those who ask for it. It is Self-Realization. As a result of Her teaching, many rituals, dogmas or prejudices about religion have been corrected. We respect all the incarnations, prophets and the realized souls of the past. The universal character of this worship can be seen in the Sahaja Yoga publications such as Bible Enlightened, Islam Enlightened and Geeta Enlightened and this culture of spiritual tolerance and understanding can be verified from thousands of Shri Mataji's speeches. [4]
• There can be only one Creator for the whole humanity. Hence, there can be only one religion and only one GOD. Our Holy Mother brought forth this vision, that all human beings are the children of one Almighty God. Shri Mataji says the world needs to be transformed and elevated from this divided world to the higher level of existence, where there will be a single religion "Vishwa Nirmala Dharma" (the religion based only on humanity) which will combine all the highest expressions of the great religion of the past with a more comprehensive scientific understanding of the underlying forces of life. This is a Religion that starts with Self-Realization and is based on Divine love, which is spread all over... in every creation, in every country and in the whole world ...and everyone can feel it through Self-Realization. A religion, which is based on love, joy, unity, collectivity, morale, ethics, and purity, which will lead to a healthy, integrated and balanced life and a balanced Society in turn. [5]

SY is a religion, by its own statements. It's obviously an organization. So the category:Religion organizations appears accurate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I wonder, because I'm not aware of all these rules here, how can we say this is not an organization ? Give me example of religion which aren't, according to you or wiki, an organiszation please, to let me undertsand your point and why it is so important to put etiket on this matter ?--Agenor 77 (talk) 09:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Sfacets deleted the category:Religion organizations from the article, saying that it was an "inaccurate category". I fail to see how it's inaccurate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

By saying "[...]this is not an orgnization" I was speacking in general. So if you prefere "what's the point that allow one to assert that "this is an organization" and "this is not an organization" tehrefore I was asking you to give an example about what it is considerate as a non organizationate religion according you / wiki rules / the system here ??? --Agenor 77 (talk) 22:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow your question. The relevant question here is whether SY is a religious organization. I say that it is, based on sources that call it a religion. Do you disagree with those sources? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by "religious organization ? --Agenor 77 (talk) 08:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Clearly there is an organization. There are governing committees like the WCASY, the VND, the LET, etc, run by people with organizational titles like "national leader". There are schools, hospitals, websites, ashrams, pujas, marriage ceremonies, publications, forms, etc. If there's a hierarchy or property, then there's an organization. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

And what is bad or wrong within that ? --Agenor 77 (talk) 16:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Use of Primary Sources

The name Sahaja Yoga has been trademarked in the US by Vishwa Nirmala Dharma although the term goes back at least to the 15th Century Indian mystic Kabir.[6] [7] There has recently been significant expenditure on legally protecting the term in Europe.[8]

Sfacets deleted the latter sentence saying it was "comment on a primary source". I'd welcome comment from neutral editors on what uses of primary sources are acceptable, what constitutes 'comment' and whether that is acceptable. --Simon D M (talk) 17:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Have reviewed WP:OR, there is no doubt that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. --Simon D M (talk) 17:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem with Fundamentalist Christian Editors editing against Sahaja Yoga

The problem with fundamentalist Christian editors is that they are have serious NPOV issues and intentions behind all their edits, even if they are following the rules. Because Sahaja Yoga is a moderate and tolerant movement it is often attacked by those on the extremities. Practitioners of Sahaja Yoga respect the fundamental right for all to have their own POV however fundamentalism is one thing that is not tolerated and will always be spoken out against. Sahaja Yoga does have some views that would be considered unusual to people of the main stream, and it does question the status-quo in a way that is appropriate in a free thinking and democratic world. For a long time fundamentalist Christianity has had problems with Sahaja yoga for just this reason. It makes sense that fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalists in general feel threatened by the philosophical, historical and social questions Sahaja Yoga raises. In general fundamentalist Christians are against all forms of eastern practices such as yoga not to mention all other religions and are by definition intolerant and arrogant people. Perhaps editors of such persuasion think they are doing Gods work by attacking any other movement or religion, no matter how moderate, that is not compatible with their own belief?

Could all those fundamentalist Christians editors on a crusade against Sahaja Yoga stop editing the Sahaja Yoga Page? Such editors are tampering with the neutrality of this article by using the rules of wikipedia and are thus attacking the fundamental democratic principles behind Wikipedia itself. Should this continue and the neutral editors of the article continue to be attacked, it will not be long before we will bring the fundamental beliefs and true identities of such editors to the attention of the wikipedia Authority. Teamantime (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)