Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view

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Evolution

if there ever was a biased article, that one was it. We should work on that. The accepted truth isn't the only one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.161.138.241 (talk) 21:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

If wikipedia is going to allow religious fundamentalists such as yourself who support ID/creationism to edit science, we might as well let hard-core atheists edit Christianity. Why don't you give a nod to other theories of intelligent design, such as how mankind was designed by the Greek gods? And what about Norse, Chinese, Egyptian, etc creation and intelligent design ideas?

If not, then that is a testament to your hypocrisy. Intranetusa (talk) 03:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Attempts to undermine this policy with incompatible Guidelines

I just noticed in a relatively new guideline the phrase "Wikipedia self-identifies primarily with mainstream opinion".

I cannot interpret this as anything else but an attempt to undermine (or re-negotiate) our NPOV policy, according to which Wikipedia must not be biased towards any party. "Mainstream" (or majority) opinion is fairly given most space; it is not permitted to let Wikipedia be transformed into a propaganda outlet of majority opinion.

Evidently, Wikipedia must be actively protected from being hijacked by the opinion of any party. What shall we do about it?

Harald88 (talk) 12:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the wording, found in Wikipedia:Fringe theories is questionable. Mainstream doesn't define NPOV, and in fact it often is far from NPOV. This doesn't mean I'm all for WP:SPOV or any other strict notion of what constitutes NPOV, but the word mainstream unfortunately carries connotations of e.g. underinformed masses, of emotional rather than educated judgment. To jump directly to Godwin's law: Mainstream opinion in the Third Reich was that the white race is superior. If Wikipedia had existed at that time in Germany, would that mainstream opinion be NPOV then? Likewise, can mass media generally be considered to be unbiased just because they are the mainstream media? We should however take this to Wikipedia talk:Fringe theories.|dorftrottel |humor me 14:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

You could try [[

Indeed I do intend to correct that sentence at that place. However, I first brought it up here by way of bad example. It appears that there is a natural push against WP:NPOV simply by the law of majority opinion; and I vaguely think to remember that one of the founders has written about the constant fight against such forces that try to take over.

To use your example (thanks): Indeed, had the Third Reich taken world power, Wikipedia would have had to give much space to the opinion that the white race is superior and the Jews "Untermenschen". At the same time, there would have been an intense struggle (even risking death) by some editors who try to give alternative opinions appropriate weight. Usually it's much less dramatical, but on many topics Wikipedia is no dou¨bt under attack by people who try to suppress minority opinions in any possible way.

At one point in time there has been an uncontrolled growth of crank articles. I have the impression that this has been properly dealt with, in part thanks to the effectiveness of majority opinion. Thus that was more of an annoyance; the suppresion of notable minority opinions is a much greater danger for NPOV, and, with that, Wikipedia itself.

Perhaps this needs to be discussed at an even higher level, such as the Wikipedia Signpost, but I don't know where. I was hoping that someone of the more regular editors of NPOV has an idea.

Harald88 (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

You could try the WikiEN-l mailing list, or the village pump for policy proposals, but don't get upset if the responses are not overwhelmingly welcoming. WP has a huge inertia, and few are willing to risk any part of the so-so working status quo. |dorftrottel |humor me 17:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

This issue is a highly significant bottleneck to the quality of Wikipedia. I suggest the NPOV policy has a serious flaw since it can't cope with the implications mentioned here. Please give your opinion here:One view will never be nuetral: introduce MPOV to replace NPOV Rokus01 (talk) 18:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a very funny assertion: "Wikipedia self-identifies primarily with mainstream opinion" Afer all, nearly everyone (on opposing sides) believes their opinions relfect the mainstream! Anyone who writes this as "policy" is just looking for an excuse to push their own "mainstream opinion." --Strider12 (talk) 22:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

While people may believe whatever they wish about their views, mainstream opinion is typically easily verifiable, at least on scientific topics, through the statements of major medical/scientific bodies. For instance, statements from the NIH, CDC, Surgeon General, WHO, major European health agencies, and major professional organizations (ACOG/RCOG, ACP, APA, etc) are clearly verifiable indications of where mainstream opinion lies. Where such analyses are unavailable, the task of determining mainstream opinion may be a bit more difficult. MastCell ^Talk 19:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

But statements from people associated with agencies and groups should also be carefully evaluated to see if they represent an official, vetted opinion of that group or are just private opinions. Even the citation of an individual researchers claim that "this is a majority view" by a major organization, such as WHO, does not necessarily mean that WHO has officialy examined a question and come to the same conclusion...unless the document clearly states that this is WHO's official position.

To use examples MastCell is very familiar with, let's consider a 1989 peer reviewed literature review by a group of six members of the family planning and population control subgroup of the APA concluding with their opinion that there is no substantial evidence of serious mental health effects of abortion. (Ignore for the moment that this review was prompted by political questions raised about abortion at that time, and the fact that the APA has lobbied for abortion as a civil right--not a medical benefit--a civil right) While all are APA members, this literture review was never officially adopted by the APA governing body as its "official" conclusions regarding the literature. And, as there is no evidence that the six person team's opinions necessarily represents the majority opinion of the APA, much less psychologists in general, it should not be given undue weight. Certainly it should be cited and included, but not given precedence over subsequent material. But POV-pushers will frequently use such sources as a way to borrow the authority of a larger group, such as the APA, to imply that it has more weight than it really does.

Similarly, when the Surgeon General issued a statement, in 1989, that methodological problems in research done to that date made it impossible to draw an definitive conclusions about abortion's mental health effects, it seems evident that this official refusal to issue a conclusion should NOT be portrayed as proof of where the weight of evidence lies. If anything, it implies that equal weight should be given to both sides. Moreover, as these two sources are over 18 years old, and much more research has been done since then. So should these old sources be allowed to dominate the WEIGHT of an article on post-abortion syndrome? Just because these, and a commentary in JAMA by a single author, are the best (and nearly only) resources those pushing a POV have, they should not be pushed as the determiners of WEIGHT of medical opinion.

In short, when critically examined, these examples, which MastCell frequently relies on at post-abortion syndrome are really not very substantive examples of where "mainstream opinion" lies because there has been no research really done on what constitute the mainstream opinion of physicians and academics.

Also, contrary to MastCell's assertion, it is not always easy to interpret mainstream opinion because even official statements are frequently nuanced. In the case of the post-abortion syndrome controversy, for example, even the experts on the pro-choice side will generally make nuanced statements which say less than they appear. For example, the statement "MOST women do not experience significant emotional" is designed to shift attention away from the implicit admission that some women, a minority, may experience emotional problems. Similarly, the deniers argument that there is "no proof of a CAUSAL connection" is designed to shift attention from the fact that there is abundance evidence of a connection between abortion and mental health problems but a dispute over the causal pathways. So even these sources if carefully read, actually admit that the weight of evidence is that some post-abortion problems do occur. So, citing these sources as proof of the WEIGHT of opinion can actually be misleading if one fails to also report the nuanced statements within these sources and instead concentrates on the broad conclusions which reflect policy recommendations rather than the bare scientific facts. --Strider12 (talk) 21:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, now this is just forum-shopping for a specific content dispute. MastCell ^Talk 21:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

No, this is responding to issues you raise. If you don't want me to respond, stop following me around.--Strider12 (talk) 21:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutrality

How about renaming this page to Wikipedia:Neutrality (which already links here) and extending it with badly needed aspects on issues of relative coverage other than just the issue of POV pushing, which this policy page traditionally gives far too much attention? I think most non-neutrality in articles is due not to a POV mindset, but to a rather innocuous ignorance on many different aspects of article writing and layout.

Also, I'd welcome something on the imo hugely problematic POV issue of criticism sections. I dorftrottel I talk I 05:18, November 25, 2007

Nevermind. I dorftrottel I talk I 05:27, November 25, 2007

Good summary quote

I found this in Robert Nozick's Philosophical Explanations:

"If a person is wondering whether or not to believe p, can't we offer him reason to believe it as help?" Yes, if your help is neutral. But do you also offer reasons for not believing p? Do you pursue with further reasons for p if the first fail to convince?

Maybe it could be added somewhere in WP:NPOV? — BRIAN0918 • 2007-11-26 13:57Z

stopped

why am i getting in trouble when im trying to make my own article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dresendiz (talk • contribs) 04:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Demons cause disease

"Europeans in the Middle Ages "knew" that demons caused diseases" Is there a source for this? :) TrickyApron (talk) 10:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

When referencing distorts NPOV

I ran into an interesting issue while looking over Anti-Americanism and the "Anti-Americanism in Australia" subsection. It's pretty mediocre so I went to work trying to to draft a "balanced" overview, and I began reference hunting.

But the references providing "evidence of anti-americanism" vastly outnumber the references indicating that it really isn't a major issue. I have endless media reports of protests at visiting US diplomats, numerous major media editorials which criticise individual American decisions and even the Deputy Prime Minister making a sweeping statement in 2005 that "there is a very strong anti-American feeling in Australia" (no I'm not kidding - read it here). I even have a top 20 song by Midnight Oil called "US Forces" which opens with the lyric US Forces give the nod, it's a setback for your country. (Which I confess to singing along with as a teenager).

So the majority of references I can find make it appear that anti-Americanism is utterly rabid here and that we are one step away from gunning down American tourists in the streets,. But as someone living here, I can assure you this simply isn't true. Unfortunately the references that say "although we make snide remarks about Americans every now and then, we basically don't mind them" just don't seem to be out there. It's almost like our media and academia are implying "we all know this, so no-one really needs to says it".

Now my comment here isn't about addressing this specific situation as such, and I'm not asking for anyone to find the references that prove me wrong (although I'll gladly accept them). But I'm curious as to whether there are other "squeaky wheel" type situations where the very act of referencing seems to create POV distortions, and how the community has dealt with them. Manning 10:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Re. the concrete issue: "Howard, een trouwe bondgenoot van de Verenigde Staten, is al 11 jaar aan de macht in Australië." (my translation of this sentence from a VRT new bulletin: "Howard, a faithful ally of the United States, has been in power for eleven years in Australia"). Even if we, simplistic Belgians, can find out that a pro-American leader of a government has been in power for 11 years in Australia (well, he scored with the pro-American view in previous elections didn't he? - arguably something had changed in the period after the last "victorious" election...), it shouldn't be too difficult to find an English speaking political analyst that comes to that conclusion, isn't it?

Re. general issue: I wondered about this in the past (most recently when working on the Sejny article: the most contested sentence of that article uses five references - the article currently has a total of seven references), but somehow got convinced there isn't a real problem. As with the Australian example above: maybe the sources you're looking for are just so big you don't see them, or never considered using them. Also, a contention needing many references usually needs to start with something in the vein of according to some sources ("Depending on source,..." in the Sejny case), which automatically, virtually for any reader, has the look and feel of a less certain issue (implying: NPOV isn't distorted). And FYI (regarding the Sejny debate leading to the 5-reference sentence), one of the few cases here at Wikipedia where a Polish-Lithuanian disagreement was settled amicably (compare previous tensions resulting in Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus#Remedies): what I want to say is that this time both the Lithuanian and Polish contributors involved (and both groups were involved) could settle for the 5-references sentence after some edgy debate. I even received a nice invitation afterwards [1].

Hope this helps --Francis Schonken 12:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

See post-abortion syndrome discussion page for massive examples of selective POV pushing with the "undue weight" argument.--Strider12 (talk) 22:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

While you're at it, Strider12, please see WP:FORUMSHOP and WP:TE. MastCell ^Talk 00:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Views

I changed a wording of "...views which are in the extreme minority do not belong in Wikipedia at all" because I found a talk page comment where someone stated that in an article which was about a minority view that view doesn't need to be presented because it's a minority view, and that sounded absurd. I wasn't sure if I should edit this policy with my main account or this, but because I found that talk page related to an arbitration case which I'm uninvolved but made a statement I felt I should use the same account. I have a legitimate main account and I can tell it to someone who isn't involved with that arbitration. I certainly did not plan to get into policy editing with this account. :-) I'm still hoping that I could keep my main account out of these controversies, even though I wanted to make that brief note on an arbitration case and found this a little bit unclear part on this policy. As I understand this is that if a minority view is so extreme that it doesn't even have an article, then it's not presented anywhere. Calejenden 16:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Because this page is so clear about these things in general maybe that one sentence gets understood right here. There's no problem that views which are so extreme that there's no article about them or people advocating them are presented nowhere. And what I tried to add, the same thing is on the page elsewhere. I found a sentence about another matter which I'll comment, it was written 4 July 2007 as a part of a big change which was discussed on the talk page, but I didn't see discussion of that sentence. "A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is." Link. Many sources assume that the reader has basic information, and often a size of some group would have to be found from another source. I'm leaving this message here hoping that someone who has been developing the wordings of the policy gets to this later. Calejenden 16:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Examples - in DRASTIC need of an update

I surfed on in to the NPOV page to look up a specific detail and randomly noticed the link to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Examples. You can imagine my enormous surprise at finding that this page is essentially unchanged since the day I first posted it back in October 2001. (see the version at Nostalgia).

While I am deeply flattered that something I wrote so long ago is still being referenced, it is fair to say our collective perspective is (ahem) "a tad more sophisticated now". We should either archive it as historical, or subject it to a complete re-write. Manning 13:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Noticeboard proposal

A proposal concerning the creation of a new Admin noticeboard has developed into the suggestion/proposal to create Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. See Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Proposed new Admin noticeboard. Aecis^Brievenbus 23:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Weight of sources for "factual" statements in Wikipedia

(Reposting here, was originally on Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources by mistake, and I was directed here instead)

Hi, I'm sure this will be a Wikipedia 101 question, but please review for me? On Talk:Waterboarding, a rather spirited debate is raging for whether it is acceptable to say essentially, "Waterboarding is torture" as a statement. It had gone in quite a few circles, and then I finally asked people to simply list all the sources that say it isn't torture, versus those that say it is.

We got this as a result.

A large variety of sources and notable opinions that indicate, yes, it's torture, and on the other side, two pundits. One basically saying, "Kick it back to the legislature to decide," which is largely irrelevant, as the United States legislature mentioned in her source of course doesn't decide this globally, and the other pundit simply saying he doesn't think it's torture. My take is that, based on the overwhelming weight of opinion and sourced information, we can only go with what we have at this time: Waterboarding is a form of torture, and we can mention in a subsection or later that some may disagree. As apparently only one sourced person disagrees, I wouldn't mention it in the lead, but down below in the text/discussion of waterboarding and the United States.

Am I analyzing this correctly? Lawrence Cohen 19:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

One view will never be neutral: introduce MPOV to replace NPOV?

The NPOV policy was never meant to cope with the limits of interpretation. To start with, what could be neutral to any point of view?

A well known strategy of experienced POV pushers is to push out all views they oppose to from an article, on the pretext that those other views are not significant enough. These so-called "insignificant" views easily include published scholarly points of view. Somehow this wrong-doers are free to present those other views as contradicting some kind of "mainstream" popular view, by law of nature identified as "neutral". However, the neutrality of such a "neutral" point of view is irreconcilable to the personal point of view of those that seek to give WP:UNDUE attention to their own opinion, maybe even at the cost of criticism and the results of other investigations.

All of this is possible for those that intent to abuse NPOV policy at the limits of its applicability. Sure, theoretically some kind of "neutrality" could (and should) be achieved by verifiability and objectivity: however, authority and general acceptance will rarely contribute to such a neutrality, not even being a scholarly point of view, and certainly never as a rule of thumb. How "neutral" was the once generally accepted autocratic dogma of the earth being flat? So, if "neutrality" of any point of view is disputable by definition, why not better stop the abuse of NPOV by hard to dethrone cabals and drop NPOV policy altogether. To make an article truely neutral and encyclopedical, Wikipedia should rather adhere to a policy of Multiple Points Of View (MPOV) instead. Rokus01 (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with your assessment of what many POV-pushers' tactics are - it amounts to ostracisation tactics being used to endorse one pet hypotheses and pretend all others don't exist or don't count, and I have seen this too many times. But surely there are already more effective ways to combat this kind of pov-pushing than changing the name of the NPOV policy; since the policy already requires MPOV in effect, it would be nothing more than a ceremonial and probably highly contentious (thus impractical) name change. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

In defense of MPOV I argue that POV pushers would have a hard time to push out significant scholarly points of views by abusing MPOV policy. Yes, to replace the misnomer of one of the three very pillars of WP policy by a better equivalent could be cumbersome. Still, anything that would contribute to balance, quality and above all, peace, would be worth some consideration - no matter how symbolic. Rokus01 (talk) 18:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

As written now, it already demands multiple points of view adequately enough... Perhaps "MPOV" should be more fully described as a crucial pillar of NPOV, something that is within NPOV. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, please explain why you deem an official emphasis to multiple views contentious? Won't it be rather the contrary, that people will have to waist less time in WP:OR to advertise their personal point of view as the one and only that would be the "most neutral and significant"? Rokus01 (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh no, I am in agreement with you! I think if MPOV were made a subsection of NPOV, it would satisfy your aims, then such pov pushers could be directed to the MPOV subsection of the NPOV page. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV is already MPOV. All editors and all sources are biased, the key to NPOV is to describe the POVs, rather than asserting them, as in, 'Expert A says X. Expert B says Y. Group C teaches Z.' The policy is clear on this. Some editors choose not to understand the policy, changing the policy won't make any difference to those editors. 74s181 (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem isn't the wording of the policy, the problem is enforcement. Although NPOV is the core policy of WP, there seems to be much more enforcement of behavioral violations such as violations of WP:NPA, WP:3RR, etc. WP:ARBCOM avoids NPOV disputes, making excuses like:

• Decline. I believe this is fundamentally a content problem of the sort which we are notoriously bad at fixing... The Uninvited Co., Inc. 23:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
• Decline. Agree it seems largely to be a content issue. - SimonP 14:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The result of this attitude towards enforcement of WP:NPOV is that a POV pusher can succeed as long as he is 'polite'. 74s181 (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

SeeAbuse of WEIGHT argument below for one recommendation that tries to bridge NPOV while ensuring that "undue weight" does not kill MPOV. In essence, I'm arguing that while there is a reasonable argument for limiting inclusion of references to an unlimited number of non-peer reviewed articles which may distort weight, a different rule should apply to peer reviewed work. In short, summaries of peer reviewed articles should never be subject to purging because that prevents the true weight of academic work from ever being presented. The way to show the weight of facts is to let all peer reviewed material be presented. This also allows the wieght of an article to organically shift as new research is conducted and published, especially in controversial areas.--Strider12 (talk) 22:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this is well-covered by WP:WEIGHT. There are dozens if not hundreds to thousands of peer-reviewed articles on any serious scientific subject. Nothing magical happens through peer-review that makes a source suddenly inviolable. The idea is not to include as many sources as possible, but to provide an accurate overview of a topic. On scientific topics, where expert bodies have synthesized the available literature, the opinions of these expert bodies should guide the scientific coverage of the topic. But again, this is an attempt to win a content dispute (where Strider12 is a lone and tendentious voice) by moving the policy goalposts. MastCell ^Talk 00:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess WP:WEIGHT focus on authority and acceptance, not on neutrality. NPOV could never make one point of view appear more "neutral" for having more authority or acceptance. Most content disputes are indeed about the coverage of multiple points of view. This does not have anything to do with moving policy goalposts, rather with abusing policy in favor of - typically - some kind of single point of view that is hardly to be called neutral at all. Rokus01 (talk) 00:51, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Policy enforcement is in it's interpretation

Policy is a wonderful thing. Every CEO will tell you "ït is meant to be interpreted liberallÿ". If Neutral is supposed to be a policy, then all one can do is watch, shuffle and delete paper, and most bureaucrat do, in line with what they see as "policy".

E.g. This talk is is respnse to the deletion of an article, signed by Wikipedia's founder, for copyright violation by Hut 8.5. See deletion log 1 19:25, 8 December 2007 Hut 8.5 (Talk | contribs) deleted "Open Education Declaration" ‎ (copyvio of http://www.capetowndeclaration.org/front-page/read-the-declaration)

Yes, I know Wikipedia is soon going to be migrating to a Creative Commons license, but until that happens the text can't be included in Wikipedia. Even if that wasn't the case, the text would have been deleted through some other mechanism since it wasn't any kind of encyclopedia article and Wikipedia is not the place for any kind of campaigning, as I'm sure Jimmy Wales will know. Hut 8.5 21:08, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Hut,

Let me get this right. Even if, in the meantime, I get the guys at [2] to put a link to the GNU Free Documentation License, the founder of Wikipedia doesn't have the right to put a document (article) he has signed, whose core aim it is to further the Foundation's aims, on the site he set up?--Simonfj (talk) 21:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

If they license the text under the GFDL then it will not be deleted straight away as a copyright violation. However, Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia, and including text campaigning for anything is a violation of WP:SOAP, and this would likely result in the page being deleted in an articles for deletion discussion. Note that Wikipedia's policy of neutrality was strongly championed by Jimmy Wales, and I seriously doubt he is going to break it. There are other websites the Wikimedia Foundation can use to express support for the petition other than Wikipedia. Hut 8.5 21:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

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Now one can't blame Hut 8.5 for doing a good gatekeeping job. But let's consider if we want to let our founder break his own policy; or is this the kind of outcome he meant to encourage by the NPOV policy?--Simonfj (talk) 22:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Publishing the declaration is engaging in the debate, specifically forbidden by WP:NPOV. However, there is nothing at all preventing one from creating an article describing the debate, which is exactly what WP is intended for. 74s181 (talk) 03:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yay. Yet another Persian gulf question

A question has come up in Talk:Persian Gulf regarding the controversial usage of the alternative (and controversial) name the 'Arabian Gulf' in the Lead. A great many there feel that the addition of the controversial alternative name is an undue weight violation. I am not as sure of this, as the naming controversy of the alternate name usage appears within the article, there is an actual dispute about the name, there are cited references to the usage of the name (both historically and contemporarily) and that a sizable percentage of people in the area refer to it as such. the debate seems to be a perennial issue of debate, and it would be nice to specifically address this so as to resolve the usage question.
I've suggested that the matter be rfC'd or even ArbCom'd but the first led nowhere and the second seems like more of a nuclear option, as an AN/I on one of the more uncivil users has served to leaven out the incivility that was brewing there. ArbCom is usually to resolve issues of user condict, not content disputes. the only reason why i still think it might eventually be valid/needed is that it does seem like a policy interpretation dispute. The matter is insoluble to both sides. My own observations of the discussion are that, while it might seem unfair to characterize it as such, this is another cultural-type dispute, similar to the ArbCom Persian Naming Dispute thing from this past summer. Some inpute would be extremely helpful. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 15:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Alternate name of a subject certainly belong in the lead, but perhaps a footnote would be adequate? -- Kendrick7^talk 20:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

No, they don't want it mentioned anywhere in the article. Besides, as an alternative name, it does belong in the Lead (perhaps in parentheses, afterthe more widely known name). - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 21:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Abuse of WEIGHT argument

I propose that Wikipeida policy on WEIGHT should include a note along the following lines

====POV should not be smuggled in via WEIGHT arguments====

On occassion, especially in controversial areas, editors who are proponents of one position may argue for the exclusion of peer reviewed studies supporting a competing perspective on the grounds that including such material will give a "minority view" undue weight. For example, abortion is highly controversial and arguments over the scientific evidence for or against post-abortion syndrome enjoys heated debate in both the secular and acedemic community. In such cases, the inclusion or exclusion of facts drawn from peer reviewed research for or against post-abortion syndrome may substantially affect the tone of the article and reader's conclusions surrounding this controversy. For this reason some editors may be tempted to exclude studies which they perceive as undermining their own preferred viewpoint and to offer the "undue weight" argument as a basis for deleting contributions made by editors of the opposing view.

As general policy, research published in peer reviewed journals should be always be accepted as facts published in a reliable source. Rather than risking a POV slant based on the judgment of Wikipedia editors, the weight of such information should be kept in balance by including information from other peer reviewed journal articles which may present counterbalancing facts and interpretations of facts. Moreover, the weight of peer reviewed articles that are older should not be given preference over newer research, as it is possible that trends in new research may be indicative of a shift in weight from an older view to a newer view. The guiding principle should be inclusion rather than exclusion of all peer reviewed materials.

Similarly, especially in controversial areas, the claim of an individual expert or groups of experts have written or issued statements to the effect that "most experts agree with this position" should not be treated an objective measure of the weight of expert opnion. Unless it is supported with empirical evidence, such as polling data which supports such a claim, such claims should be included in the article with a reference in the text identifying the individuals or groups making the claim of majority support for their conclusions.

In general, and especially in controversial areas, it is preferable that Wikipeida editors should not seek to determine which side of the controvery has the most WEIGHT to support their arguments. Instead, the editors should seek to retain information from all peer reviewed articles cited by contributors as this will allow the articles weight to be adjust naturally with the publication of new research.

Policy recommendation made by --Strider12 (talk) 21:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Holy cow - that seems like an awful lot of WP:CREEP, which I am of course against. Is this really a problem? Shouldn't we use the Keep It Simple, Stupid approach in policies? UnitedStatesian (talk) 19:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, less is better here. Bensaccount (talk) 20:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for making it shorter, but offer a long detailed version to this discussion page to see if there is agreement people support the general principle I'm suggesting? All the details listed revolve around a real problems where some editors are aggressivley deleting verifiable material offering only feeble WEIGHT argument as their excuse for POV-pushing. (See the discussion page at post-abortion syndrome as a great example.) So do you agree with the principle, if not the length of the principle?--Strider12 (talk) 22:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The context here is that Strider12 is a single-purpose account on post-abortion syndrome. This is a case where scientific consensus is clear and documented; Strider12's edits have focused on highlighting a small number of peer-reviewed studies which have reached conclusions disparate with the consensus, out of proportion to the weight assigned these articles by expert panels and national medical/scientific organizations. Having failed to convince other editors on the article talk page, he appears to be forum-shopping this on policy pages. As to the proposal, the idea of balancing one peer-reviewed article with another reaching a different conclusion, rather than synthesizing an overview based on proportional representation of viewpoints, is unworkable and would have the (intended?) consequence of obscuring scientific consensus where it exists and creating the appearance of scientific debate where none exists. It also relies on individual editors' judgement to select specific articles and their "rebuttal" articles, rather than reflecting the weight given these articles by experts in the field. Which is a recipe for disaster. MastCell ^Talk 00:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

As further context, as seen on the discussion pages of post-abortion syndrome, MastCell, has defended the purging of at least 22 studies published in the last eight years from that article. Even though these are the majority of studies published in recent years, MastCell cotinues to insist that these recent studies have no weight in light of a 1992 commentary by one psychiatrist and 1989 paper by six APA members (all advocates for abortion) which asserts that abortion has no mental health effects and that "most experts" agree with them. She repeatedly cites the same handful of same "experts" who claim thier view is the majority position (which is not supported by any polls or other measure of opinion) as the argument for deleting dozens of studies and references to peer reviewed literature that does not support the "majority view" claimed by these "experts." Yes, it is MastCell's POV slanted views on undue weight, and her refusal to discuss objective terms for judging WEIGHT on the post-abortion syndrome discussion page, which has led me to this page. I welcome MastCell's involvement here and hope he will contribute to this discussion of how WEIGHT should actually be measured.--Strider12 (talk) 20:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Given the context described above, this appears to be a case of wanting to rewrite NPOV in order to allow original research.

Without looking at post-abortion syndrome, I suggest that WEIGHT would best be determined by medical reviews. Independent studies should have little or no weight at all in comparison, and any selection and analysis of such studies by wikipedia editors would be WP:OR. --Ronz (talk) 20:39, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

There are two broad components of weight: (1) the weight of facts (data points) as reported in peer reviewed literature, and (2) the weight of conclusions and inferences offered by experts as expressed either as part of the individual studies or through review articles or by committees.

In medical science, the trend is toward evidence based medicine which ranks the value or weight of studies based on objective criteria. Wikipedia's evidence based medicine article is pretty good, and in it you will see that the opinions of experts are the lowest ranked of all evidence regarding the benefits or risks of a medical treatment (in this case, abortion).

This low ranking for expert opinion reflects the experience of the medical profession that new research will often displace previously held beliefs, even widely held beliefs, about even non-controversial treatments, much less controversial ones. Moreover, it reflects what Michael Crichton, M.D., has rightly noted: "[T]he work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world."

I by no means oppose including expert opinions or consensus statements from Wikipedia articles. I do object to using these, especially selected statements which support a POV-push, as an argument for deleting verifiable information from peer reviewed studies which run counter to the POV of certain editors.

Also, it is unreasonable to exclude mention of recent research from an article simply because it has not yet been included in pre-existing literature reviews.

--Strider12 (talk) 21:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Prominence and undue weight

Given a number of alternate names which are not widely accepted and are in dispute, would it give the alternate names "undue weight" if they were mentioned in the lead? This is the issue we're trying to sort out over at the Persian Gulf mediation case, and input from the wider community would be welcome. CloudNine (talk) 18:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I would add to this that the alternate names are cited and are a long-standing dispute in the region as per the Persian Gulf naming dispute. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Further, the particular question is with regard to providing additional prominence, as related to Undue Weight, to a name used by a small minority in the lead where it is already included in the article itself. ObserverToSee (talk) 19:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

"Small minority". lol, okay. That isn't really cited, and appears to be a part of the issue of neutrality. :) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:18, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Is this sentence in accord with policy?

Related to the article about the movie What the Bleep Do We Know!?, here is a sentence that has been suggested for inclusion in the lead:

The film misrepresents New Age extrapolations as science, which may mislead viewers.

A couple parties to the discussion feel that the statement should have an attribution, even if it's a simple passive-voice statement: "The film has been criticized for misrepresenting . . . " and then including a couple refs. Another party to the discussion says that it can simply be a factual statement, because scientists who have written about the movie generally criticize it.

I'd really be interested to hear what people think regarding whether this can simply be stated as fact without attribution or whether it's a judgment that should, according to NPOV, have an attribution. Thanks! TimidGuy (talk) 18:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Rfc on NPOV

If anybody has expertise in this area, please see Rfc on NPOV and comment as indicated. Pernicious Swarm (talk) 05:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)