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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 208.120.226.72 (talk) at 21:38, 26 January 2008 (→‎Changes to the bands listed). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Pete Townshend quote

The Pete Townshend quote can be found in Dave Marsh's biography of The Who, Before I Get Old. Townshend also described The Small Faces as power pop.

List of songs/artists removed from article

The following is a list I removed from the article. See below. Tuf-Kat

This a good article, but

This a good article, but there are a lot of ambiguities and disagreements about exactly what "power pop" is among power pop fans and others not acknowledged here. Although most fans would agree that The Beatles are highly influential on power pop bands, they would not consider The Beatles themselves power pop. Mostly power pop devotees would think that something was changed about the Beatles Liverpudlian pop sound to make it "power" pop.

"Power" Pop - Cheap Trick is probably the band most cited as power pop, and they essentially are what Pete Townshend meant when he first coined the term "power pop" - power chords and a harder rock edge added to straight-ahead pop. Here, power pop is truly a melding of rock and pop. Other bands after Trick, like The Knack, Matthew Sweet, Material Issue, Sloan and Tsar would fall into this same category. Some power pop fans consider this the only true definition of power pop.

Over-the-Top Pop - The Raspberries were the first in a wave of over-the-top pop bands that took pop to the most dramatic extremes. Often these bands were lush, and often experimental with their pop. Electric Light Orchestra and Jellyfish would take what The Raspberries started even further.

Indie Pop - Big Star, who are almost always considered a power pop band, would meld The Beatles sound with the beginnings of what would become indie pop. The dB's, The Replacements and Teenage Fanclub would follow in this vein.

There is also the more traditional Beatlesque pop played by bands like Badfinger and New Wave power pop played by bands like The Romantics, The Shoes and 20/20.

These are just some very loose ideas, and I'm leaving out important artists here, like Todd Rundgren. I'd like to at some point rewrite the general power pop article, adding categories and different lines of thinking. This is just a start, and looking for feedback.

Sensorium

Jet

Contrary to Sensorium's comments, Jet certainly qualify as "power pop" due to their obvious debts to not only the Beatles, but also to Badfinger and the Raspberries. They qualify as much as Fountains of Wayne or Rooney. One could also make a good case for the Vines being power pop, although their obvious debt to Nirvana - who were influenced by power pop but usually are not considered such - may disqualify them.

Edit

1) a) Removed sentence about lyrics confined to romantic love, which is completely false. Take some of the most prominent bands, such as Big Star, Cheap Trick, or even the Knack, who rarely sing about "romantic love", and often times not even about sex. b) Removed Jet again. Sorry. I don't want to play this back and forth game, but the rest of the bands listed are truly power pop. I have a power pop collection of thousands of cd's and records, and have worked with many of the top bands and fans in the field. Fountains and Rooney are considered straight-ahead power pop. Jet is not. Jet may have some power pop elements, but they are steeped in an early Stones, garage rock sound, which is far different from the rest of these bands. There are many, many more power-pop like bands, popular and not, that should be listed here before Jet. There is a page of power pop bands -- list them there, if you must, althouth I don't really believe they should be there either. c) Removed the Cars paragraph. Please cite sources as to where they are influential, if this is the case. The Cars are an electronic-based new wave band, certainly influential, but as influential to Fountains of Wayne, Matthew Sweet, Tsar, etc as numerous other bands are? I disagree with this as well. If you want a band who is oddly influential to power pop bands, who isn't itself power pop, take Queen, whose influences on Jellyfish, Sugarbomb, The Blakes, etc, are extraordinary.

I don't mean any offense by any of this, and definitely don't want to get stuck in a changing-back-and-forth vibe on this page, so, if someone wants to continue an ongoing discussion here or by mail, I'm willing to do so. Why don't you guys who are working here sign up for an account, so we can discuss more easily?

I still think the opening paragraph is extremely flawed in its definition of power pop, but I haven't had time to rewrite it.

Sensorium

More bands

Okay - edit if you wish...but I've been hearing some Cars' influence - but it may be one of the influences...I've been hearing more Cars like synth lines on the most recent bands.

However i've added two more artists due to extensive research through websites... I was a power-pop aficionado...buying stuff like *The Shoes, 20/20, Paul Collins Beat, The Knack, The Plimsouls, The Romantics etc. from 1979-1983 and also listened to Dwight Twilley in my youth to the current day stuff.

Badfinger was great for all their turbulence... They had that one great tune that was not their hit, Nilsson's "Without You" in 1972.

I agree with Jet being excluded from the list - they are actually an Australian garage rock outfit.

However I consider the Buzzcocks and the Ramones to be punk than power-pop (I was in a punk band myself in 1977) - they have tendencies but they are not in anyway like any of the other bands you've listed. In fact I heard that Joey was bitter on his death bed - seeing that punk has finally made mainstream and his band never got their due when they first came out in 1976.

Regarding - The Beatles - i totally agree...it's usually the jangly-pop singles between 1965-1966 (the pre-Sgt. Pepper era) that includes "Ticket To Ride," "Day Tripper," "Help" and "Paperback Writer." However, some of those late 70's power pop bands such as The Knack and The Romantics used the 64 Merseybeat Beatles as nspiration... e.g. harmonica solos on "Good Girls Don't" and "What I like about you."

Instrumental Solos

In the introductory paragraph:

Musically the style is characterized by strong melodies...with instrumental solos kept to a minimum.... The Knack's "My Sharona" (1979) [is one] of the most commercially successful singles best representative of the power pop genre.

I'm sorry to inform you, but "My Sharona" has like a two minute guitar solo. Personally, I don't think that's kept to a minimum, except maybe compared to a jam band like The Allman Brothers Band or O.A.R. I think the distinction should be made there, instead of where it is right now. Akrabbim 04:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Artists (ctd)

I'm with you on all that stuff, rg. Ramones are definitely primarily punk and secondarily power pop. Buzzcocks, probably the same, though the gap is less wide.

I definitely think the Beatles are extremely influential on power pop, it's just difficult to call them that themselves, since most people believe it began with Raspberries, Big Star, Todd Rundgren, Badfinger, et al.

To me, the ultimate power pop band is Cheap Trick, along with, in many ways, the Knack -- those bands really ARE a blend of Beatlesque pop with harder music and power chords. Though, admittedly, some of this is a personal preference. There is a big gap between Cheap Trick and, say, Marshall Crenshaw (who I'd personally consider more twee pop) -- but both are undoubtedly considered power pop, and their music is extremely different -- this is exactly why it's so hard to have a page explaining what power pop is. A lot of bands in the power pop category have so little in common.

Sensorium

I know...today's power pop is different - so their point of reference is a little bit more modern since they are much younger - that's why I believe that they have a little more "Cars" influence than say bands in 1978-79, they may have been fans or acquired the influence second-hand probably from Weezer who was produced by Ric Ocasek on their major label debut in 1993.

The power pop bands from 1979-1983 not only used Beatle-type arrangements and harmonies, but Pete Townshend style power chords and also in the case of songs such as The Beat's "You won't be happy"(Paul Collins Beat)- Keith Moon styled solo drumming courtesy of influences from "My Generation," and "I can see for miles."

So when the Who says they were power-pop; they were prophets. I agree totally with that statements. Some of the ones that you missed was Phil Seymour's Precious to me (1981) - Dwight Twilley's drummer... and Let's Active's "Every word means no." in (1985).

-- I removed Ramones and Buzzcocks as you suggested, as you are probably correct. They are power pop, but only peripherally so, so they shouldn't be on this list.

Sensorium 23:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Subtractions from the song list

I found some of the recent subtractions from the song list unhelpful to the article -- especially the deletion of Material Issue, one of the most popular power pop bands of the last twenty years, and Pursuit of Happiness, who had one of the few Power Pop hits during their time period. So I added them back.

In addition, I removed the weird Pezband line in the middle of a paragraph about THE 80'S -- and in doing so also removed the line about Pezband "leading the charge" in the 70's. Pezband, although an important power pop band, was neither influential nor popular enough to be considered leading the charge during Cheap Trick and The Knack's heyday.

Sensorium 06:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the whole list. A lot of genre articles tend to spawn lists of notable bands, songs or albums, but they're never appropriate, and consensus is always to remove them. If a song is so notable that the article is malinformative without it, then it should be mentioned and explained in the article. A list is going to be ignored by most anyone who doesn't already know about the genre, and is inherently made up of the editors' opinions. If there is significant discussion about which songs are the most notable in powerpop, then make a list called list of power pop songs or something, and ascribe those opinions to whoever holds them. Tuf-Kat 07:26, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Sensorium 06:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Power pop - pop or rock?

Is power pop a form of pop or rock, or both? Pop templates do not feature power pop, but from its name alone, one would surmise it is a part of pop music. Mandel 01:11, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's both. Power Pop is often an amalgamation of rock and pop. That's my opinion at least. Though, I'd essentially consider rock a form of pop in many ways as well.

Sensorium 02:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rock and roll played such a majopr part in the development of pop music that it's often hard to seperate the too. A sizable amount of modern pop uses beats, bass lines and composition that were derived from rock and roll --Neon white 16:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

US Centered?

The term was well known in the UK but was slightly different in it's usage. The british bands sometimes used sixties references as well but included a smart punk edge into their music. Because Powerpop happened straight after the Punk explosion. The best known artists were The Vapors or The Jags - somebody remember them? There are some more relations to punk/garage/sixties punk. For further information please visit the Bomp Records page [1] or read the article about Garage Rock. You can also include The Who related Mod-Bands like The Jam, The Chords and so on. There has never been a Mod-Rock genre for them. So i think in some cases Powerpop is their cup of tea. Some more ideas: [2]. It is a littlebit strange dating Powerpop back into the sixties. It's not working. You can not make the complete British Invasion of the sixties a Powerpop thing. Otherwise you should correct the place of origin to Great Britain ;-) It seems to be the best way to describe Powerpop as a modern and polished form of Garage Rock. Mostly short and straight songs, sixties-pop (Beat music) influenced and played with punk-power. My english is not good enough to rework this article. Maybe someone can check this informations and add a few pionts.--212.80.224.243 19:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You make excellent points. I've added a section in the article about late '70s UK groups and how by that time the term "power pop" had become ambiguous, with different meanings in the two countries. Starry Eyes 21:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. I think a lot of these bands don't qualify as power-pop at all. I don't think it's right to even credit The Beatles as power-pop, as the term developed after their demise. --No Underbites 03:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First, thanks to Starry Eyes for his additions. :-) Now, I think parts of this article are problematic, in that they contain circular references, and the authors concentrate too much on the music, less on the term. I try to explain what I mean: The Cramps became a founder of the Psychobilly genre. Their music is somewhat pure Rock'n'Roll with tons of references to the music, movies, comics and and and of the 50s and early 60s. Following the idea of the Powerpop article, Elvis, Buddy Holly and Bill Haley were psychobillys. This is easy to understand, but lets get somewhat crazy now ;-): The australien band The Saints recorded what is called a Punk Rock album in 1976/77. As their contemporaries Radio Birdman, they never wanted to record what is called "a Punk Rock album". Both stood deep in the tradition of The Stooges and other Garage Rock bands, but their releases happened to coincide with the punk explosion. Depending to the Punk Rock article the term punk was applied to garage rock bands during the 70s. So the Saints and Radio Birdman recorded a garage album categorized as a punk album, but the term punk was used for garage bands. This disguise is a circular reference simply produced by replacing one term by an other term. There are no big musical differences between punk and garage, as there are no big differences between Powerpop and Beat music in the 60s. To my opinion the term powerpop is partially quoted out of context in this article. It seems better to put "Powerpop" into the right place - the temporary context - and the collisions with terms like (and bands depending to) Beat music, (the) British Invasion and Garage Rock are gone.

Power Pop

It is interesting to note that it is much easier to exclude artists from power pop genre,than to define them by it.Aimee Mann and Michael Penn have incorporated elements of songwriting (catchy melodies,layered harmonies,acoustic/electric guitar-based,brief solos,introspective lyrics,etc.)from power pop,but neither are mentioned as disciples of it.Similarly,Del Amitri,Tal Bachman,Fastball,The Jayhawks,10cc,Gerry Rafferty and Crowded House have all released material that must be considered mainstream power pop,but they are not limited stylistically to that niche.Nevertheless,all of them owe something to their previous generation,as one can hear Pete Ham's fills,or Eric Carmen's overproduction tendencies in the mix of many of their songs.The combination of Byrd-like 12 strings with Townsend power chords,thrown together with a soaring Justin Hayward tenor,backed up by reverbed Nash,Furay,and Young vocals and you get an irresistable blend of rock/folk/pop whose appeal will never die. A Charter Member

Starting list of songs

I've just started List of notable power pop songs from the list which was removed from the article. Still just a stub and needs more work, ordering, sorting, etc. I was thinking maybe sort into sons which were number 1 hits, songs which were in the top 10, etc., and alphabetize wtihin those. I think having a list like this is important, and in some ways more useful than List of power pop musicians because of the nature of the genere. This (IMO) is more a genre of singles - of big hit songs which get stuck in a lot of peoples heads and are often more well known than the musicians themselves (and almost always more well known than the album they were on). So anyhow, didn't have much time right now to do much with the list, but hopefully it can grow and improve... ENpeeOHvee 06:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removing songs?

Removing The Knack from the list???? How can that be - that is so over the top Beatles as you can get down to the orange and yellow Capitol label on the 45 to the album cover to the "LOve me do" influence on "Good Girls Don't." But if it's true that you're reworking the list then I take back my statement. I've added to this list previously by researching books and the internet and like any style of music, Power Pop retains some of its features but added new tricks as well. It doesn't sound the same in the 00s as it did in the 70s... - but you can tell what it is.

69.111.166.32 17:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

"Power pop influence is also evident in the music of pop punk bands like blink-182, Tsar, and Jimmy Eat World."
When did Jimmy Eat World become a Pop Punk band? JOJOFACE 10:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where did the list go?

There was a red-linked "List of power pop musicians" which I changed to "bands" to parallel other articles. ("Musicians" IMO is confusing--makes it sound like every member of The Beat or whoever should be listed...) I can't find any list except in this discussion! I guess I'll start the page for now...

--Hcethatsme 18:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Weezer

Can we really consider "Buddy Holly" to be a power pop song?

Yes, in my opinion. But my opinion on WP doesn't matter (WP:OR). What matters are citations:
  • [3] "Power Pop Weekly Top 100" ("of our great practitioners of power pop, responsible for such catchy slices of sun as Buddy Holly..." )
  • [4] Sean Daly, "Weezer's oddball frontman a mad scientist of catchy power pop", The Washington Post
  • [5] "the perfect power pop of 'Buddy Holly'..."

etc

Edit-warring from 208.120.227.69, who is also known as 208.120.227.250

Two issues:

Issue one:

1) Anonymous editor, your constant and unacceptable reversions of my edit concerning the late 70's/early 80's power pop bands being signed to major record labels. I've already pointed out to you back on a June 13, 2007 edit that Shoes, the dB's, and Paul Collins' Beat were all signed by major record labels. You, however, keep reverting that edit.

Fact: After "Black Vinyl Shoes" was released on their own label, Shoes were then signed to Elektra Records, as this Allmusic link shows.

Fact: After the dB's released their first singles on the Albion label, they were then signed by I.R.S. Records, whose distributor was A&M Records.

Fact: Paul Collins' Beat was signed to Columbia/CBS records.

That is all that needs to be said on the topic. Stop reverting the edit.

Issue 2: Anonymous editor, you are editing using at least two different IP's. Please register an actual editor handle.

-- J.R. Hercules 18:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I hope you are aware, Wikipedia policy dictates that anonymous edits are to be considered the same as username edits. I have added to Wikipedia for several years now. But I've chosen NOT to register to avoid the sort of interpersonal squabbles and longterm feuds that I believe damage this site. My IP changes every 1 to 3 weeks, and that satisfies me... I've used more than 2 IPs on this article alone. Thank you for your invitation to register, though.

As for the "unacceptable" edit, your allmusic links do not tell the whole tale. The dBs did not sign with IRS until 1987; their three previous releases (not just a few singles) were on independent labels-- first Albion, then Bearsville. If you see the first three dBs albums with "IRS" on them, it's a MUCH later re-release. If you doubt this chronology, I suggest you review the dB's page on Wikipedia. As these are the albums that made the dBs' reputation (such as it is), your preferred phraseology is misleading... unless you consider a 1987 IRS album to be from "the late 1970s and early 1980s."

I believe my last edit eliminates this discrepancy, while also keeping the spirit and tenor of what you wish to include. If you disagree, please explain why without further ominous commentary about "constant" "edit warring" or "anonymous IPs."208.120.227.69 04:00, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree with your reasons to remain unregistered, but I do agree with your edits. Thanks for pointing out my error re. The dB's. -- J.R. Hercules 15:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Powerpop Definition

The lead-in says "Power pop is a musical genre that draws its inspiration from 1960s British and American pop and rock music." I believe this should be changed. It seems there are two schools of thought:

  1. As currently written, it includes only music that was inspired by certain up-beat songs by the likes of the Beatles and the Who (e.g. "Ticket to Ride", "The Kids Are Alright")
  2. The other viewpoint considers bands like the Beatles, Who, Them, the Everly Brothers, the Hollies and others as the originators of the genre, and therefore they are included, along with those (later) who are influenced by the original sound.

The opinions of people on either side are not of much concern here, as we have historical precedence that can't be denied. Since the term "power pop" was used in 1967 by Pete Townshend to describe a certain type of rock music being created at that time, its definition is clearly music of The Who, Beatles, etc. Townshend could not possibly have been referring to the Raspberries or Badfinger. In fact, rather than saying "the Raspberries play powerpop" it may be more correct to say "the Raspberries play music inspired by 1960s powerpop" (although I would not put it like that myself).

It then says "The music is characterized by strong melodies, crisp vocal harmonies, economical arrangements and prominent guitar riffs" - I suggest that, as currently written, it indicates that a song is only powerpop if it contains all of the the elements (strong melodies, crisp vocal harmonies, economical arrangements and prominent guitar riffs.) This is simply not true.

Let's take the "prominent guitar riffs" part. Largely, this is true, but consider the following examples of powerpop, where guitars are not at all prominent:

I'm proposing that the main article should say is something like "The music typically incorporates a combination of musical devices such as strong melodies, crisp vocal harmonies, economical arrangements, and prominent guitar riffs."

I would like to fix the article, placing the etymology closer to the beginning with citations, making the aforementioned modifications, and correcting the current definition based on historical use. Your thoughts are appreciated. -- Gekritzl 00:14, 26 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a problem with adding the words "combination of" to the existing topic sentence, but it's not correct to label the early music of the Who and the Beatles as "power pop", even if Townshend did coin the phrase back in the day. The whole point about "power pop" is that it was a style of rock music inspired by the British Invasion music, and developed by younger bands which came after that period. Sure, songs like "I Can't Explain" and "She Loves You" fit the "power pop" criteria, but they were brief musical excursions by The Who and The Beatles. They produced a few more songs in that style, then moved on and never played that kind of music ever again. And I'm not sure The Zombies' "She's Not There" is what one could call "power pop", either. Like most of the Zombies' faster stuff, the rhythm swings more than it "rocks", and the dynamics vary throughout the song. Plus, the electric piano solo is jazz-like; even if it were played on an electric guitar, it still wouldn't sound like a typical power pop guitar solo. -- J.R. Hercules 15:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Changes to the bands listed

I don't think the New pornographers can be described as a prominent band. They have had very little success compared to the other bands listed, in fact it's only in the last year that they have had any real recognition. We have to be strict with these to stop editors simply adding their favourite bands to the list. --neonwhite user page talk 05:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An editor who wanted Cute Is What We Aim For included is in no position whatsoever to make baseless accusations about edits motivated by "personal opinion" and "favorite band" status. The New Pornographers are the best-reviewed band currently recording in the genre, and by every major national music publication: Rolling Stone, Spin, Entertainment Weekly, Onion, Pitchfork, Pop Matters, Billboard, Blender, Mojo, L.A. Times, NME, Village Voice, etc. Metacritic lists almost 100 reviews for the New Pornographers' four albums; three of these average out to "universal acclaim," and the fourth is "generally favorable." Metacritic lists 0 reviews for Cute Is What We Aim For, and you write that the "New Pornographers are even less prominent." This is silliness.208.120.226.72 (talk) 07:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The number of reviews a band has has absolutely nothing to do with it, this band has had one minor successful album, which only reached #34, compare this to Fountains of wayne (5 albums and a major hit in the US and UK, plus much exposure in tv and film) number, jimmy eat world (6 albums, two reaching #5 and a number 5 hit on the U.S. Hot 100), all american rejects (two chartig album on the billboard 200, one at #6, 3 hit singles on the hot 100 and uk charts), new pornographs (one album that reached #34, no charting singles) they simply are not prominent in any way. Please use common sense and do not disrupt the article by re adding it without making your case here based on something a little more substancial than your own personal view of the band. --neonwhite user page talk 21:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fountains of Wayne have had a total of one Top 100 hit, "Stacy's Mom" (which reached #21). They've had one album that reached the Top 100, "Traffic and Weather" (which reached #97). However, it would be just as absurd to delete Fountains of Wayne for their "lack of success" because-- PRECISELY LIKE New Pornographers-- they have been recognized and celebrated for several years as being among the prominent acts in the power pop genre. Why don't you go compare the (largely nonexistent) Billboard placements for Big Star, the dB's, 20/20. Shoes, the Records, Jellyfish, and several other bands cited in this article? In citing chart numbers, you're showing a fundamental misunderstanding of this genre of music. As you've repeatedly made what appears to be a retaliatory edit, made personal accusations of bias, and then invoked an "edit war," I've submitted this to "third opinion."208.120.226.72 (talk) 21:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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