Talk:Lost (2004 TV series)

Template:WikiProject Lost

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Umm, wtf is "Secret" ?

THere's this wierd section on the main article page called secret but it makes no sense and I have no idea what it is. There's no introduction for that section, either. 68.3.214.66 (talk) 07:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Fansite Link needs to be removed

Author J. Wood's Powell's blog should be removed from other media. The blog theorizes on the connections between literary mentions and the show's narrative. Also, J. Wood's book has been hammered by the fan community for numerous errors in the character descriptions and leaps of interpretation that have no basis in fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.235.116 (talk) 14:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Discredited Theories Needs Updating

Discredited theories needs to be updated. Time Travel and Aliens have not been discredited. The quote cited to backup that assertion is made with regards to what has been shown on that season. To say it is broad enough to discredit those theories is grossly out of context. Here is the original quote that was cited:

"We're still trying to be ... firmly ensconced in the world of science fact," he said in an interview. "I don't think we've shown anything on the show yet ... that has no rational explanation in the real world that we all function within. We certainly hint at psychic phenomena, happenstance and ... things being in a place where they probably shouldn't be. But nothing is flat-out impossible. There are no spaceships. There isn't any time travel."

Particularly, Lindelof is discussing what has been shown on the show up until that point only (season one). Since Lindelof and Cuse have subsequently confirmed that Desmond did time travel in an article by Jeff Jensen, there is even more evidence that Damon's comments are retrospective to the first season only.

Further more, part of this statement, the assertion that everything has a rational explanation in the real world, has been retracted numerous times as a statement made prior to the mapping of the full story.

I agree. I looked at the site that was used as source, and there's not a single mention of spaceships, aliens, or Hugo and his crazy dream. The person who wrote the wikipedia paragraph was making it up, and used an unrelated link as their 'source'. ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.211.156.35 (talk) 05:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Season 4 start date

Any links with actual citations about the February start ?

Nitpicking, but still...

"Each episode also features a storyline from a character's past (in one case so far, future)."

This line is wrong. The last episode of season 3 doesn't have a storyline from the future. The storyline IS the future. The island sections of this episode are the flashbacks. Notice the episode ends on Jack and Kate in the real world, not the island.

• There's no evidence that says the flashbacks are the island. Plus, if Jack is having the island flashbacks, how did he know what was going on in the Looking Glass or at the beach? He wasn't even present for those events. ShadowUltra 15:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think its nessacary. While it's obvious to us that one ep appears in the future, are you able to source it? And while Wiki is not censored for spoilers...doesn't mean we have to include one in the opening paragraph of the main page. I would suggust

"Most episode also features a storyline from a character's past."

but ofcourse "most" is a word we should also avoid on Wiki, since it could meanwhere between 51-99%. Anyone got any other ways we could mention this without brackets or referencing the future? (Rekija 00:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC))

I don't have every episode available right now to check, but I'm pretty sure no episode of the show has ever ended on a flashback. Which would indicate to me that island scenes were the flashbacks in the final episode. And while I agree with the sentiment about Jack not knowing about the events underwater, that's not a rule the Lost people maintain for the flashbacks. You get to see lots of little things in the flashbacks that the memory anchor person didn't actually see or know. For instance when Kate is on the phone with the agent chasing her, you get to see the agent sitting in his office on the other end of the phone. That's not her memory. She's hundreds or thousands of miles away on a different telephone.

You are wrong, there has been at least one episode ending on a flashback: 2x18 "Dave" ended on Libby's flashback at the mental hospital. Benjil 10:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Keep in mind however, that EVEN IF the actual island events were the flashbacks in the the season 3 finale, it can still be said that all episodes included a storyline about a characters past. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hatetodd (talk • contribs) 00:43, August 23, 2007 (UTC).

Season 3 finale spoiled

Thanks wikipedia for spoiling the season 3 finale, by revealing that the flashbacks of the episode are set in the future before I've seen it. This is done right at the beginning of the main article in the second sentence. Use spoiler warnings please!

I agree there's no reason to have a spoiler for the 3rd season final in the second article of the main page. (Rekija 00:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC))

First, please sign your post with four tildes ~~~~. Generally, one can not count on Wikipedia for spoiler warnings. We are, after all, an encyclopedia - not a fan site. For future reference DO NOT read these articles if you have not watched all current episodes and you want to avoid all chance of spoiling the episode for yourself. Ursasapien (talk) 07:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I changed it to "off-island" which says the same thing but gives away less. JohnRussell 03:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

When I'm catching up on something on DVD, I look at one of the old pages from the history instead, so I don't see spoilers. You just need the original air dates. Just a suggestion--209.2.60.44 (talk) 14:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

medal of honor musical eastereggs

ive noticed a few easter eggs in the music in atleast two episodes first one i hears was the MOH-submarine-theme when Locke is in the submarine and then in the next episode theres a MOH-suspence-theme in the episode when Sawyer kills Lockes father think its worth mentioning in the music section 85.226.10.117 16:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

"Thus, Lost will conclude with its sixth season."--WRONG!!??

The article says that, starting with the 2007-2008 season (season 3), the final 48 episodes of Lost will air in three seasons. That means that there are two seasons after season three. Thus, lost will conclude with its fifth season. I haven't changed it because sites elsewhere are reporting that the series will end after its sixth season, but it has to be realized that this information contradicts with what the article currently says (i.e. we have 8+9 apples, thus we have 18 apples =P.)

There will be 3 more seasons of 16 episodes -Russell29 09:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The 2006-2007 season was the THIRD season.

Yes, 2008 = Season 4 , 2009 = Season 5, 2010 = Season 6-Russell29 14:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Main image for summer 2007

There are currently two options for the infobox image for June 2006-September 2007 (likely when a new promotional poster will be relased). We can have Image:Lost title card.jpg or Image:LostS3Promo.jpg. I prefer the promotional poster because it is more visually attractive and we have an animated intertitle in the episode format section, so the intertitle is redundant at the top. Other argue that season three is over and that some other series on Wikipedia use the title card. Let's gain some consensus. --thedemonhog talk • edits 16:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the "promotional" image is a promo picture at all, to me it looks like an image ABC use to spice up their website. That's not counting the fact the image contains text promoting another website, or out dated text. Then there's the point it changes every season (deary me :\), where as an intertitle (generally) remains (mostly) constant. I personally don't find the promotional image appealing for that matter (so the "because it is more visually attractive" should be "because I think it's more visually attractive", as in your opinion). The general norm is to use intertitles, it's long been practice... I can't see any reason not to use the intertitle. Matthew 16:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with Matthew. I replaced the poster with the intertitle because the poster is outdated, but looking at TV show articles in general, a great number of them use intertitles in general. I would stick with the intertitle so we don't have to keep updating the image. Also, we shouldn't be using fair use images because they are more visually attractive. The anti-fair use editors will just remove it for decoration. -- Wikipedical 18:41, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

They are both fair use, though. --thedemonhog talk • edits 20:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Right, but you're justifying a fair use image because it's "visually attractive." I'm justifying a fair use image because it identifies the show in a way that is pretty much accepted on Wikipedia. -- Wikipedical 20:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The poster also identifies the show. --thedemonhog talk • edits 23:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The title card identifies the show, the poster identifies a season. The poster could be suitable on the season 3 page, but the main lost page should use the main lost title. (Rekija 01:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC))

Mass episode article deletion

Any interested editors, please participate in the discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Mass deletion of television articles by TTN, as I feel it's only a matter of time before the Lost episode articles end up in the firing line. I know it's a debate that's been held before (single season articles vs. individual episode articles) but those in favour of the episode pages might like to give an opinion. It seems the argument stems from them having nothing more than unsourced plot and trivia, and TTN's way of dealing with it. See also the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Using Wikipedia:Television episodes. Chris 42 16:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

This has now moved on to Wikipedia talk:Television episodes#DISCUSSING THE GUIDELINE. Chris 42 11:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Merging Nikki Fernandez into Paulo (Lost)

In response to the FA, see Talk:Nikki Fernandez#Merge with Paulo (Lost). --thedemonhog talk • edits 18:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I merged them and now I have made a request for the article to be Today's featured article at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests#Nikki Fernandez and Paulo. Comment if you have something to say. --thedemonhog talk • edits 04:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Images in the character articles

I have noticed that the majority of character articles do not have any promotional pictures to go on the side of text. Juliet Burke does, as do Kate Austen and James "Sawyer" Ford, but many others don't. Provided no one will delete the pictures, I would be happy to add pictures into the character articles from the episodes, so the the articles have more visual appeal. Is everyone okay with me adding pictures in, under the terms of fair use?

That's great. I've tried to do that before, but the images just got deleted. Someone also removed every picture on Characters of Lost, saying that they were not sure how they contributed to the article. I pointed out that they identified the characters, but every image had been deleted by then. --thedemonhog talk • edits 18:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Season 4

When is the right time to create the Lost (season 4) article? Russell >: 4 8 15 16 23 42 17:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I would say right now. I have an unsourced factual draft at my sandbox, but if you want to actually start one, you need to source everything. --thedemonhog talk • edits 23:55, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The one in your sandbox looks great but on the plot it says "The third season continues 93 ..." It should be the fourth season continues..... I think it is time for the article. Everyone will add sources when it is created anyway, but if you want to wait it is okay. Russell >: 4 8 15 16 23 42 17:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Added criticism section

I personally do not understand how an article can become a featured article if it demonstrates only one point of view and when there is a lack of interest in even trying to find any criticism on a fictional piece of work. I guess maybe it isn't that essential when the article is thoroughly referenced but it seems as if it's against the spirit of wikipedia wherein editors with differing views collaborate together in order to provide reliable information to the masses.

I've spent hours trying to find criticism of the television series and I have managed to find relatively few articles on the topic. This may demonstrate the superior nature of the show or the apparent lack of critical reviews but regardless, I have included the same within the article to ensure a balanced view.

If there are any complaints or criticisms of including a criticism section then please mention them here before unconstructively removing my edits.

That said, it's a good article and hence to all the editors who have worked hard on this page, I would like to say that you've done a job well done (I personally haven't seen the television series so do not accuse me of being shallow and narrow-minded and a scathing critic or whatever). Zuracech lordum 14:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

• There is no reason for anyone to remove the new section. I think it's well written, cited, and helps form a more whole view of the show. Nice work. -- Wikipedical 19:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
• It needs a few MoS touches, but yea, looks good to me. Can't see a reason to remove it. Matthew 19:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe the statement about Anthony Spinner (the writer who sued the show for copying his ideas) needs updating. The claim was made in August 2005 but I cannot find any updates on the matter. If anyone knows anything about what happened and can provide a citation, then please do update it. Zuracech lordum 09:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Can we just remove that altogether? It seems like some guy is trying to get some money and fame, and that it is not copyright infringement. --thedemonhog talk • edits 05:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we can choose what not to include based upon personal opinions unless it's agreed upon by consensus. Selective editing s also a violation of NPOV. Also, Prison Break was similarly sued and the information for that exists to this day. Zuracech lordum 06:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms

It seems to me that this is article isn't at all balanced. There are many critics of the show that point out that the plot moves entirely to slow and doesn't seem to advance very much, with many of the questions that were introduced at the beginning of the show still being unanswered. Popular culture has begun to reflect this frustration, such as penny-arcade: (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/11/01) and this wikipedia entry should reflect that.

That Penny Arcade is satirical. It's making fun of people who make obvious jokes about Lost.

umm this is supposed to be a encyclopedic article. What does 'many' mean? One critic can also be called many. If there are 15 million people people watching a show and out of which 50 have some kind of issue with it, it does not justify it being in an encyclopedia. Heck, I have issues with The Sopranos and I'm sure there are about 10 other critics who have issues with it too. It does not mean it deserves its own place in an encyclopedia. Also parts of your criticism sections are entirely factually inacurate for example:

Alongside Prison Break, Lost has been said to have popularised the existence of a maxi-series - a continual ongoing series that does not seem to have a clear end in sight.

Which directly contradicts all of the claims by the producers to the contrary including the most recent one [1] Unless the site you are sourcing has some inside information into the writing process of the show it is factually in accurate.Obvious 18:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The producers will obviously contradict such assumptions. However, the concept of maxi-series was tagged to the show by a writer for Variety.com and that nevertheless holds true. Sure, they have a specific end planned but when the shows (including Prison Break) started, three years back, they did not seem to be going anywhere. Of course, you can always add an addition to the effect that "the producers, however, have repeatedly claimed to possess a clear, well-planned map for the entire run of the television series" if you can provide all the references. Regardless of whether the producers agree with this or not, that above statement is still believed by other people - critics, reviewers and the like and hence justifiable for inclusion (provided, once again that it is referenced properly). Zuracech lordum 21:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Only the producers statement about the the way the show is being plotted out can be considered fact. Again, where is the author of the variety article basing his conclusion from? Unless he has inside information on the issue his opinion is as factual as any person who starts a blog and types in random stuff. Since this is an encyclopedia, information on here should be factual or at the very least fact based. As for other people or critics believing it... umm... that is completely irrelevant. There are lots of people and political pundits who will say that George Bush is Hitler or George Bush is the anti-christ, it could be easily referenced. That does not mean that it is appropriate content for his wikipedia page. Also this is not the only problem with the criticism section. While I'm here I would point out another one:

It has been suggested that this is one of the reasons why the network has announced a specific end date for the show allowing the writers to work towards fixing loose ends and thus satiating fan complaints.

That is again completely factually inaccurate since the main reason why ABC decided to give the show an end date was because the contracts of Damon and Carlton (the producers) had to be renegotiated at the end of the season and they had made setting an end date for the show a condition for renewing the contracts and coming back to the show[2]

Also these statements

Moreover, the show's expansive fan base has led to the rapid circulation of rumors and speculation that has, on occasions, spoiled future storylines thus reducing the viewership on critical episodes (for example, the heavily discussed possible death of Shannon reduced the viewership for the episode when it actually occurred).[73]

Also, the altering of the time-slot has, at times, had an adverse effect on the show's ratings. It has often been put up against FOX's successful reality show American Idol[74] and it has not always fared well against such competition

How is that a criticism of the show? Spoilers leak out for almost every shows. That does not speak anything about the show itself, much less a criticism. And altering time slots, being against idol, how is that in anyway relevant to the show? Idol is the number one show in America. No other show has done as well against it as LOST. In fact Lost finale did quite well against Idol finale and even had a negative effect on Idol's ratings.[3] Until the disputed parts of the section can be settled, I'm removing them.Obvious 06:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Upon reading the section again, Obvious has made some very good points. The way the section was phrased did not point out the criticism of the show. If one of the references said for example that fans were outraged that the show somehow leaked Shannon's death, that would be one thing, but to say that spoilers existed in general, in that wording, is not criticism. In addition, decreased ratings is not in itself criticism of a show. If you found a reference that said that there was fan outrage over a new aspect of the show, e.g. Nikki and Paulo, that in effect decreased ratings, that is criticism. If you could find different references that revealed actual criticism, it should be inserted. -- Wikipedical 06:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess this is why a criticism section has been non-existent for over 3 years. Do as you will. I don't have the patience to continue to argue. Zuracech lordum 16:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

lost in argentina

someone knows in what days, houres and chanels there is "lost" in buenos aires, argentina? please answer me, it is urgent!
thank you very much.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.89.142.232 (talk • contribs) 00:26, June 25, 2007 (UTC)

it's called Bit Torrent.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.212.158.91 (talk • contribs) 19:35, August 9, 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not TV Guide. Please sign your comments. - SigmaEpsilon → ΣΕ 02:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Nah, it isn´t. And, after all, how could you know? I´m from Bs As, Argentina too. Franshu (talk) 01:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Cast and Characters

I have a problem with this section. Would it not make more sense to have a simple list of the characters and the actor's name, for example...

Current Cast:

• Naveen Andrews as Sayid Jarrah
• Henry Ian Cusick as Desmond Hume

...and so on, so forth. I think having a simple list like that makes the section easier to read. I don't feel that a Cast and Characters section needs a long paragraph. I also think it would make the article look better. It gives more variety to the structure, yet not too much. Does anyone agree?

This was actually discussed a while ago. It was decide that prose is better than a list on Wikipedia. And sign your posts with "~~~~" which will result in your IP address and the time that you left the message. --thedemonhog talk • edits 15:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Disagreements at Thematic motifs of Lost

There is currently a disagreement as to what constitutes a thematic motif for Lost as used in the article Thematic motifs of Lost. A user contends that "Canada/Deception" and "Apocalypse" are two such motifs. I contend they are not. Those interested in commenting can do so at Talk:Thematic motifs of Lost#Original Research. I'm no longer interested in editing on Wikipedia, nor do I intend to return just to continue fending off bad edits on Lost articles, so I leave it to you to discuss.--Leflyman^Talk 18:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Template:Dated episode notability

An editor has requested deletion review on this template after a decision was made to delete the template at TfD. You are invited to participate in the discussion at the DRV if you so wish, see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 July 4#Template:Dated episode notability. The original TfD is located at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 June 24#Template:Dated episode notability. Ursasapien (talk) 05:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Last 48 episodes broken into 16 episodes per season, notable use of lost numbers?

Just wondering whether anyone else thinks it worthwhile to mention that it appears they're using the lost numbers to break the series into 16 units, from the 48 remaining episodes? Jachin 10:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

48 is not one of the numbers and it is just a coincidence that 16 is. --thedemonhog talk • edits 16:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

It's exciting every time the numbers occur, but I don't believe every use of them is intentional or necessarily, if so, a reference to the Lost number. Ordering episodes is a serious and expensive matter. - Mark Jensen 11:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Cloverfield?

Is there any possibility that Cloverfield has anything to do with Lost, as many are suspecting (based on the famous roar)? If so, does that warrant inclusion in the article? The article on Call of Cthulhu mentions Cloverfield even though the only hard evidence for that is www.ethanhaaswasright.com ShadowUltra 21:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

It's (probably untrue) speculation, so that information does not belong in this article. --thedemonhog talk • edits 03:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Confirmed at beginning of Cloverfield movie, there is a Dharma logo at bottom right. Dharma might have something to do with Tagruato or maybe TIDOwave http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23525&start=150 67.100.127.46 (talk) 07:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Walt's Picture

I brought this here as I felt it would get more attention than on Walt's page. Is the current picture, of Walt at the end of season 3, a good choice for the info-box? It does not give an accurate representation of Walt's appearance for the vast majority of his time on the show - it represents the most recent appearance of him, which lasts the best part of a few seconds. Algebra man 12:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

No, the better picture is the earlier one ([4]), which is a season promo. The current one is an episode still. --thedemonhog talk • edits 17:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I realise that, but my point still stands - he does not look like that for all but ten seconds of his time on the show. It doesn't accurately portray him and I think we should aim to replace it. Algebra man 11:09, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The one I linked above is fine, isn't it? --thedemonhog talk • edits 16:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is but I thought you were saying we can't use that one because it's a promo - and that we either use teh episode still or nothing at all. My bad, t seems. Algebra man 16:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Peer Review

Would you say we're up for another peer review? It's been a year since our last one. Calvin 16:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Significance → Impact

A while back on June 25, Carlodrum, a user with 18 edits, renamed the "Impact" section to "Significance." I never noticed it until now. What do you think of this? --thedemonhog talk • edits 01:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as it has been six days now, it appears that no one thinks anything about it so I reverted to the name it had when it became an FA. --thedemonhog talk • edits 03:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Thematic motifs of Lost

This former seperate article has been folded back into the main Lost article. I notice that the "Eyes" motif is in this section and remains unreferenced. I believe that this section needs some mention of the apocalyptic motif, but I will work on getting proper reference material. --Ursasapien (talk) 10:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Coredesat has put the article Thematic motifs of Lost and it's history here. I have asked that he move the discussion and its history here. I think the next step is to open a discussion regarding how and if we can bring this article to the point of recreation. I am considering whether it would be good to open a RfC about this article. You're invited to help improve this article. Ursasapien (talk) 04:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I have been involved in a content dispute with anon User:70.189.74.49 regarding thematic motifs. Essentially, we deeply disagree regarding what is and what is not a "thematic motif." We also disagree about sourcing, as he consistently accuses me of "original research." I am wondering if this entire section should be removed until we can come to some resolution (perhaps through an RfC). What do other editors think? Look here for our previous extensive discussion. Ursasapien (talk) 02:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Original research

• First, the source (IGN) you have for "black and white" calls it a symbolism, not a theme. They are two different things. It only says that dualism is a possibility, whereas your wording insinuates that it was more concrete than your source says. I'm curious if you can actually have an "thematic motif", seeing as they are kind of distinct elements of writing on their own. A "broad idea" and a "recurring element".
• Your CTV source mentions "The idea of lineage and disaster is already a major theme", yet not dysfunctional families. There's a little more to dysfunctional families than pure lineage. I get where you are getting the family thing, but since they don't actually talk about it in a manner of "themes", calling it such would be OR. The way I read it, it's talking about them as they are plot devices, though they probably are themes for the show. The issue at hand is, unless the source actually says that, you cannot synthesize the answer for the reader. What has happened is that you've provided evidence of a theme as if you were writing a paper, whereas you should have provided evidence that someone else has seen a "theme of..." throught the show.
• None of this--coincidence versus fate, revealed most apparently through the juxtaposition of the characters Locke and Mr. Eko; the conflict between science and faith, embodied by the leadership tug-of-war between Jack and Locke; and references to numerous works of literature, including mentions and discussions of particular novels--is in the source that is linked after it. It comes out of nowhere. I assume the USA Today source is for the book, but it mentions nothing about a theme or motif in regards to the book. You've established that they read novels in the show, but now how that relates to any thematic element...at least one trying to be created on its own here, instead of by a reliable source.
• The bit about the names of the characters, not seeing how that is a theme. They were named after philosophers, that seems more like character development/creation, to me.
• There just does not appear to be anything the sources to support all the assumptions in this section. The section does more talking than it has sources to back it up. What I see is something that goes, "there is a theme of X", and then has sources that show where "X" has popped up a lot. That is OR, because the source doesn't actually say what the text here says, it mentions it in a different light.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You have a good point, one I have brought up already. Are all thematic motifs synthesis/original research? Because the show is relatively new, there has not been a lot written in reliable secondary sources analyzing the themes and symbolism of lost. Qwerty has argued previously that this subject should be an exception, and that the primary source (the show itsself) could be used as a reference illustrating themes. By way of example, I submit the South Park episode "Super Best Friends. In the Scientology section, they draw some very obvious references from the episode that attempt to parody Scientology. However, there are no references that specifically state, "X was intended to parody Scientology, Dianetics, etc." Editors that have seen the episode feel that this parody (based on the show's history of mocking various religious beliefs) is quite apparent. Ursasapien (talk) 06:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You can never use the show as a source of the themes. You can use the writers actually saying "this is a theme," but using the show is like saying "This is a theme, notice how it appears in episodes X,Y and Z?" The same goes for the South Park episode. Unless someone actually says it, and it isn't you, then you cannot say it. The point of OR is that the original throught of something cannot come from us, the editors, but must come from a reliably published sourced. Smallville suffers from the same thing. The show has near constant references to Superman, and other shows. But, we cannot go, "In Smallville, one of Clark's choices to name his dog is Krypto. Krypto was the name of Superman's dog in the comics, so that is a reference to the comics." That happened in the show, and it's about as obvious as a slap in the face, but you still have to contend with the possibility that it was not intentional. Since you are in a section talking about specifics, you couldn't be vague and go, "He called it Krypto, and Superman called his Krypto." Simple argument is, "it's a coincidence." It may be best to remove the section until people can properly analyze the entire show. You could probably use the sources in the external links, at least those two about family and the books on the show.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a rather linear/black & white view of OR. In this post, essentially an essay, Qwerty7412369 argues that Primary research is NOT original research.

"Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing primary or secondary sources within the provisions of this policy is, of course, encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. Although most articles should rely predominantly on secondary sources, there are rare occasions when they may rely on primary sources (for example, legal cases). An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions." (From Wikipedia:No original research with emphasis added)

However, your argument about OR is what has made this section such a "sticky wicket." In fact, the sections about family and books are not that clear cut either. Can we say that various pieces of literature, family problems, and philosopher names appear in this show? Yes! Do the sources that we have say "this is a thematic motif"? No. That is why this section is such a problem. BTW, I had nothing to do with the South Park episode article. I just thought it was a good illustration. Ursasapien (talk) 01:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I think there is a difference between the primary source as it consists of interviews, and the primary source when it consists of an fictional event. Like you pointed out with the books, family, etc, if someone says "There is a theme of black and white," and then provides primary sources, or even secondary sources that simply say "here is an instance of black and white," and "here is another instance of black and white," then we haven't shown a theme of anything, we've just shown a recurring element in the show. Interviews are primary sources, but it's something coming directly for the "horse's mouth," so to speak. But, on the NOR page, it says for primary sources: A Wikipedia article or section of an article can rely on primary sources only if the source is used (1) only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) never to make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions. -- Since themes and motifs, by nature, are analytical, interpretive, explanatory, etc...we cannot use primary sources for them. The only case I could see a primary source being acceptable would be in the case of a director or writer expressing an intention to create a theme of something. Even then, it shouldn't be the sole position in the section as I've seen people argue that there is always intentional fallacy.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Removing the "Thematic motifs" section

So, what do other editors think? Should we do as Bignole suggests and just delete the section until we can garner enough sourced information? I would like to hear from other editors, but I will probably take action by Tuesday, September 3. Ursasapien (talk) 05:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that the sources are fine right now. --thedemonhog talk • edits 23:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

But they don't actually discuss themes.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Your major point is that we should be careful with technicalities, and that's fine. But you must admit that the showrunners (and cited sources) indicate a presence of recurrent elements on the show. Instead of deleting the section, should we just rename it something like "Symbolism" or "Motifs"? -- Wikipedical 20:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Or work the entire thing into another section. I only saw one source that talked about symbolism (that was the bit about black/white), most of the others didn't mention anything. The only thing you could verifiably conclude is a recurring element in the series.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me)

Okay, forget symbolism then. "Recurring element in the series" -isn't that what a motif is? I'm willing to simply drop the "thematic" in "Thematic motifs" if that is the problem. -- Wikipedical 20:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Motifs suggest a symbolic significance (according to the article), and only a bit of the info has verified an analysis that suggests there is any symbolicness to it. People have discussed the recurring elements in a matter that would suggest that is what they are talking about, but they haven't actually said that is what they were meaning...so we shouldn't interpret other people's words for fear that we may do so incorrectly.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

If you are unhappy with "motifs," we should just use "recurring elements." Nonetheless, I think there is agreement that "Thematic motifs" incorrectly identifies the elements, and so instead of deleting the section, we should just change wording. I'm trying to compromise here. -- Wikipedical 22:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say delete the section. The only similar thing I suggested was remove it, but I meant remove it from the mainspace and put it here, if you want to call it themes. If you want it called "recurring elements," then I'd make it a subsection with the series overview. I'd also suggest ditching the subs in that section in favor of something similar to Smallville (TV series)#Series overview. You can link the seasons in the paragraphs. I say this because, it will become unncessarily long in the table of contents if the show goes for 6 or 7 seasons..or more. I'd leave the "future" subsection, and move "Recurring elements" above "Future" (seeing as it's more relevant to the immediate seasons than to future ones).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

ABC and the producers have decided that the show will last six seasons of 117 episodes. --thedemonhog talk • edits 23:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

And if the series drops in the ratings completely off the chart this comming season, you mean to say that ABC will not cut its losses? A show's lifespan is dependant on the advertising space it sells. Either way, even 6 subsections like that are just a little excessive since they are only summarizing the show and are not really in-depth coverage of anything.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Image

I've noticed that many pictures used in lost articles don't have fair use rationales, which should be added.(Black Dalek 19:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)).

That's right. --thedemonhog talk • edits 18:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Sources

The entire Awards section is missing sources, namely...for every award. There isn't a single award. Since I've seen IMDb get the years wrong on when a show won an award, or come across awards that I cannot find listed anywhere else outside of IMDb, I think these all need sources. Also, on the subject of sources, the first 4 or 5 sources are simply urls. There is supposed to be consistency in source formatting. Most are using citation templates, but several (including random ones throughout the article) are just simple urls. There seem to be some using citation templates that are not completely filled out. Meaning, there are no accessdate filled out, dates are not wikilinked. This is supposed to be an FA article.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This and Arrested Development (TV series) are the most poorly sourced featured articles. --thedemonhog talk • edits 03:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't know what it was like when it achieved FA status. I figured that a lot of the issues have arisen over time, since the series is still on-going and there does not seem to always be a lot of active editors on this page (kind of like Smallville).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I checked the version of the page when it achieved featured status and the references were surprisingly pretty much the same. --thedemonhog talk • edits 03:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, this page needs some cleaning, but it definitely isn't as bad as Arrested Development. Other than the Awards section, citations seem to be abundant, but I'm sure there are some areas I've missed. It's major issue is inconsistency in the citation formats. Arrested Development has sections which fail WP:NOR. It probably needs an FAR to address all the issues. I'd do that, but I've already got Andrew Van De Kamp in FAR (with no comments or actions to clean up) at the moment.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

If there is a review soon, I will fix the citations as much as I can in the next few days, but I support demotion at its current state. --thedemonhog talk • edits 03:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, FARs are not for delisting. That's a process after FAR, if the article hasn't been cleaned up. Anyway, that's probably a discussion for Arrested Development's talk page. Hopefully, this article will get cleaned up with citations and consistency.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Music

"The only pop song that has ever been used without a source is Ann-Margret's "Slowly," in the episode I Do."

Not true... In Shannon's flashback episode, "Stay" by the Dave Matthews Band plays in the background when Shannon is accepted into the New York internship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.66.106.50 (talk) 06:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Lost crossover with Chuck

anyone know if this rumor is true that there will be a lost crossover in chuck? http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.17.58.149 (talk) 17:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

yes, it's true Tabor 17:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

See also my answer at Talk:Lost (season 4)#Lost crossover with chuck. –thedemonhog talk • edits • box 18:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Long breaks

I think it's note worthy to identify that this television series is notorious for excessively long breaks, and is as far as I know one of the few ongoing popular series to have an entire year hiatus between airing. The impact on it's demographics is something more often talked about, but the mere audacity that they've got a series so popular they can hold off their viewers for a year guilt free and not face any wrath from their fans is amazing and surely noteworthy to some degree? Downside is, where the hell would you slot something like that in?  :( Jachin 04:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I would not say that this show is notorious for long breaks. The first long break was twelve weeks long, which was just so that they did not have to air reruns. I also would not say that they can hold off their viewers for a year without backlash. That is happening right now, and we do not know that they can retain their audience. However, if you can find a reliable source that says what you are saying, then include it in the article. –thedemonhog talk • edits • box 23:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

They have never gone on an entire year of a hiatus. Tabor 00:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

You could eventually work it around a line from the commentary of season 3. I think it was Carlton Cuse who said that they knew the break from november to february was very painful for the viewers. This doesn't in fact prove the fans were "suffering," but one could work some text related to this matter, around it. - Mark Jensen 11:01, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"intertitle"

That's not an intertitle. It could be called a shot from the opening sequence or the main title screen but not an intertitle. I would have just changed it but the stupid page is protected. 75.72.206.28 18:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It is semi-protected for a good reason. The page has been vandalized thirty times in the last two weeks. –thedemonhog talk • edits • box 18:58, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Show Run in Infobox

We have been over this before. Even though "the produces [sic] themselves and ABC have stated that the show will run for three more seasons to finish the story of LOST," this involves a certain amount of speculation. After all, can anyone guarantee that the show would not be cancelled if it tanked in the ratings? Does any editor have the ability to observe the future and guarantee that the show will air its finale in May 2010 (and who is to say that we can not change that time stream, anyway)? The safest, most encyclopedic thing to do is list the original run of the series as September 22, 2004 – present. Ursasapien (talk) 08:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. See WP:CRYSTAL, criteria 1: "Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place." Lost is not notable, and no one can be certain that Lost will end in 2010. — *Hippi ippi 09:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Even though we 'know' there 'will' be 3 more years, that doesn't guarantee that they'll continue to air in Feb-May for those three years, to end in May 2010. Next year they might show it from Dec-Mar, and the following from Sept-Dec, putting the ending in Dec 2009 instead. The series is still 'present'-ly ongoing, so should be listed as -Present. --Maelwys 10:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

For the infobox, let's keep it as "-present." –thedemonhog talk • edits • box 23:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Due to the Writers strike, the show may end in 2011 now, airing 8 episodes this coming season, but still totaling a total of 48 episodes, says Carlton Cuse. Still, that's up to ABC, so we'll have to wait and see.--76.177.166.65 09:59, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

On the Danish Wikipedia we have resolved this issue by writing "Seasons: 3 (Aired), 6 (Planned)" - Mark Jensen 10:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Kristen Bell wasn't offered role

Could a registered user remove the statement that says she was offered a role on Lost? [5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.146.43.214 (talk) 02:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the information and link. I removed the mention of Kristen Bell from the page. –thedemonhog talk • edits • box 03:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

It should be mentioned that she was being talked to about a role on LOST (to play a character named Charlotte). Even though she apparently was not directly offered a role, she was very much being considered. -Zomic13 03:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

No, please visit the link that 75.146.43.214 provided, which states that she and the producers talked about her having a part, but she was never offered one. And we cannot say for sure that she was being considered for the recurring role of "Charlotte." The original source of Bell being cast on Lost is Michael Ausiello from TV Guide, who says that a spokesperson for Bell informed him that Bell will not be joining the cast of Lost—nothing more. Ausiello goes on to say that his sources told him that Bell "turned down the gig primarily because she didn't want to relocate to Hawaii," however his sources also told him that Bell was offered a role, which Bell herself denies. Your claim is just speculation that made sense until she was interviewed by BuddyTV. –thedemonhog talk • edits • box 03:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I did visit the link. I know that she wasn't offered one - she states that. Still, she was being talked to and considered for a role on LOST. Her quote confirms that. -Zomic13 08:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Point of view in strike mention

"As of November 9 2007,"LOST" suspended shooting with season 4 only half finished, due to a strike by the Writers Guild of America. (Thanks Writers)" that last bit should be removed,,, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.36.225 (talk) 06:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I actually got to it before the above comment was added. –thedemonhog talk • edits 06:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Romance genre

I agree with thedemonhog that Lost does not fall into the romance genre. Although the romantic relationships are part of the plot, they are never the primary focus. I think the genre "Drama" is a better fit. Ursasapien (talk) 09:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Canada / Lying

OK, a while back I tried putting a paragraph in that Thematic motifs of Lost article about how when someone mentions Canada in the show, it's part of a lie. But since I couldn't find a source for it and since it might not have been a theme or a motif, it was deleted. Now, though, I actually do have a source - I found a published book on Lost where the author commented on those Canada-lies. Also, the section is titled "Recurring Elements" now, so I don't think it matters so much that this isn't quite a theme or a motif. That said, is there any chance these points can stay in the article and not just be deleted and labeled as "inane, silly, speculation cruft"? To have 6 separate Canada-lies all throughout the series seems a little too specific to be unintentional. Burnside65 (talk) 15:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• Sounds perfectly fine as a recurring element as long as you can cite a verifiable source. -- Wikipedical (talk) 23:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a stretch, but the sorting building at Birkenau was referred to as Canada. There isn't enough evidence to put on the page, but I feel inclined to mention it here. --128.2.164.209 (talk) 03:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Featured article for January 31

I was hoping we could get a Lost-related article as the featured article for January 31. This article and Through the Looking Glass are the only Lost-related featured articles. This article was already on the main page once. Coindidentally, Through the Looking Glass is also a good fit because it is the most recent episode and would go nicely into the start of the fourth season. I was wondering if anyone would like to help me make sure we can get the article featured for that day. ShadowUltra (talk) 00:43, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Way ahead of you. I have had Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests watchlisted since June and am now one of its most frequest editors. But please add it to your watchlist in case I or ShadowUltra is sleeping when Raul654 archives requests. You can see what the request will look like here. I suggest having it on the main page on February 1 instead because that will actually be when the episode airs due to the time change. Additionally, traffic will probably be higher immediately after the episode airs than before it. The Lost WikiProject also has Nikki and Paulo at FA status and Greatest Hits (Lost) at FAC. Within the next few months, you can expect many more FA's and GA's to be written. –thedemonhog talk • edits 01:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright, so what should we do? ShadowUltra (talk) 22:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Add Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests to your watchlist, wait until January and request "Through the Looking Glass" if you see that there are less than five requests. –thedemonhog talk • edits 22:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Centralized TV Episode Discussion

Over the past months, TV episodes have been redirected by (to name a couple) TTN, Eusebeus and others. No centralized discussion has taken place, so I'm asking everyone who has been involved in this issue to voice their opinions here in this centralized spot, be they pro or anti. Discussion is here [6]. --Maniwar (talk) 01:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Additional link

I found this external link but couldn't decide where to put it in the main Lost article. It's basically a video to help people to catch up on the series. NorthernThunder (talk) 03:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

theorys

Can someone help me create a wikipedia page that deals with theory's of lost —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rkyne (talk • contribs) 20:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources about all the theories? The problem with most theories is that they're just that... theories, with little or no sourcing to back them up (because if there was, they wouldn't be theories anymore). As such, they don't have any place in Wikipedia. Instead I'd suggest you go to Lostpedia where they have specific theory pages you can post your theories on. --Maelwys (talk) 21:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Theories are original research and would be more appropriate for a fansite, not an encyclopedia. -- Wikipedical (talk) 21:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Flashfowards

The mention of a flashforward needs to seriously be omitted. It is a major major major spoiler. Also it says "flashforwards" and we have only seen one thus far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.221.105.4 (talk) 14:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately due to wikipedia policy on spoilers, spoilers are OK. I hate it too, but there is nothing we can do. ЩіκіRocкs ^talκ 06:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Things are not left out so that people don't get spoiled. Its a major part of episodes and has to be included Russell >: 4 8 15 16 23 42 16:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Previously on Lost?

I cannot find the episode in Season 2 where the "Others" actually capture Kate and have her mouthfolded while a fake-bearded Tom negotiates with survivors that they will not harm each other if some imaginary line is not crossed: "This is our Island. You live on this Island because we let you live in it". I can see it was included in "The Long Con" recap but I can't find in which episode it actually happened. Is this an error? Am I delusional? RayLast (talk) 18:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Season 2, episode 11: "The Hunting Party" (Jack-centric). –thedemonhog talk • edits 18:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Character Page Season Section Headings

Some character pages have the season sections titled 'Season One, Season Two' etc., but some have 'Season 1, Season 2' and so on. Does this matter? Is one preferable to the other? Jjmbarton (talk) 20:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)