Talk:Religion in Australia

RE: Big Call

This is not really a big claim, and has been mentioned in Australian documentaries etc. It is generally considered plausible and likely. In the same way, contact from Chinese ships during naval exploration is considered possible.

"The history of Islam in Australia pre-dates European settlement. From 1650, Muslim fisherman from South East Asia communicated and traded with Aborigines from Australia's north. Some inter-marriage occurred."

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/stories/s790151.htm

--Dauodwa (talk) 00:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd have to say that particular reference doesn't look particularly like it's drawing from reliable sources. Do we have anything that isn't based on "it seems likely": because for all we know it's just from the same sites that claim Islam predicted all of modern science. :) We have to separate the bullshit and "might possibly potentially if you think real hard and hope" from the more generally accepted. I haven't come across any history books mentioning intermarriage and language influences etc etc. Sure: the camel herders and the like. Well documented, no one is disputing that. But extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, we're not here to solidify fairytales. NathanLee (talk) 03:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Further reading of that ABC site suggests it's nothing more than verbatim copy of a rather selective view of history written by someone who regards anything and everything Islamic to be the absolute truth (through rose tinted glasses).

e.g.

"He was generous to those he defeated, however, and many converted to Islam. "

There are countless references of just how "generous" Mohammed was to those he defeated.

I think it's fairly safe to assume this is not a reliable source for this kind of information. It doesn't speak in neutral terms, it talks within the assumption that god did indeed dictate the teachings, rather than "Islam is the belief". NathanLee (talk) 03:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I would thank you not to swear, but your point about the site is, I suppose, reasonable. I only chose that one as it was the first that I found. I shall find another source and use that in its place. Additionally, I should think that the Australian Broadcasting Corporation would have not placed that on their site were it not considered reasonable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dauodwa (talk • contribs) 02:11, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The ABC's generally a good resource, but I'd have to say that part of the site looks a little hodge podge. e.g. most of the religions are nothing more than one or two links. I would think that if this were a referenced, researched reference it would be a bit more impartial and bit less "from within the belief structure" if you know what I mean. If it's a "it might possibly have happened" and that's an extreme minority view: it doesn't belong in wikipedia. If the page had been stating things in a factual tone rather than from one that has swallowed the belief structure. If you think that it is a reliable source then by all means put it back in, but as I said it sounds like something lifted from one of those "islam was everywhere before everything and everyone" (e.g. like the stories about how islam influenced every native tribe around the world). I think the dream time stories, animal spirits and the rainbow serpent are a long way from Islam. NathanLee (talk) 03:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I still think that the topic of Islam's involvement in Australia prior to European settlement ought to be addressed in some way. Additionally, you are confused in this idea that Islam influenced every tribe around the world. The Islamic view is that a prophet or message was sent to every tribe in the world. Nonetheless, your argument is more suited to a discussion of Islamic theology as a pose to the historic involvement of Islam in Australia. Thanks for your input. --Dauodwa (talk) 13:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

That's exactly the sort of misinformation that I worry is getting spread here. :) Aside from whether or not there is any clear evidence about islam making it to Australia prior to european settlement (which may well be true, I'm not discounting it.. just wanting a source that isn't just a rough collection of links and "from inside" the religion based reporting): Fact is that a prophet or message was not (and could not have been) sent to every tribe in the world. e.g. there are uncontacted/voluntarily isolated tribes who cannot have received this all world tribes message of Islam. So I'm afraid that although the Islamic view might be that, in the real world that has not happened. Just like there are some religious folk who believe Jesus was at some stage in the USA despite complete and utter lack of any evidence to suggest so. NathanLee (talk) 18:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

As I said, you are reverting to arguments about Islamic theology. Now I am not an expert in that area, and neither are you. However, I would make it clear that when I say "was sent", that is in terms of Prophets. With regard to isolated populations, the message is sent, and this is seen in the fact that there is not place on earth where people cannot find out about Islam. Regardless, this is turning into a discussion of Islamic theology, and although you keep saying that is what you are trying to avoid, it is also the same thing which you continue to mention in depth and attempt to provoke.

LET IT END HERE: I have understood your point about the specific source, however the information is nonetheless of significance in terms of Islam in Australia, in the same way that information about Post-European settled references to Muslims in Australia is significant; it is all apart of Islam's role, both historic and contemporary, in Australia. Some people however insist on throwing opinions of Muslims out of proportion, and attempting to attack the integrity of Islam and Muslims through this rather small sub-section of the Religions in Australia article. Again, I thankyou for your comments.

Big Call

Muslims had contact with Australia and her people before European settlement, Macassans (an ethnic group from eastern Indonesia) began visiting the Australia in the seventeenth century.

This is a big claim it needs to be substanciated with verifiable documentation. Gnangarra 14:08, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Revert - Why

• Islam, total 281,600, 1.5% a 40.2% change (an estimated 400 000 Muslims including those with dual citizenship, non-religous Muslims, and others who wish not to disclose their faith).
• Judaism, total 84,000, 0.4% a 5.2% change (an estimated 150 000 Jews including those with dual citizenship, non-religous Jews, and others who wish not to disclose their faith).

I reverted the article after these two Faiths were singled out. Why put estimates against exact figures? Duel citizenship doesn't exclude you from the census records. Non-religious, not disclosing are already shown in the figures. Gnangarra 22:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Non-religious Jews, okay. What are non-religious muslims? And non-religious jews are by definition not followers of Judaism. If they were followers of Judaism they would be religious jews. --Sumple (Talk) 05:31, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

ABS demographic info and commentary

Further information on demographics is important, however how this is included is important - where info is sourced from the ABS and labeled as such, i.e., the table, then additional info IMO should not be conflated into the table. Explanations and clarifications of ABS data are useful but the source should be identified if it is not ABS. -- Paul foord 12:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Jedi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

"In Australia more than 70,000 people declared themselves members of the Jedi in the 2001 census. The Australian Bureau of Statistics issued an official press release [3] following a large number of media enquiries on the subject, prior to the 2001 census. The ABS stated that the code for 'not defined' would be substituted for any respondents entering 'Jedi' in the religion question, and stressed the social impact of making misleading or false statements on the census."

Should this information be included?

I was working in melbourne then and an email was being circulated just prior to the census encouraging people to enter 'Jedi' as their religion. From memory they were aiming for a critical mass of 200,000 - 250,000 as this would have forced some form of recognition as a religion. (sorry very vague its been a while).

It's open to interpretation the 1st question is was the census recording an actual religion or highlighting a problimatical event created for/by the census. The second question is if it's an actual religion does met the definition of a religious organistaion under Australian Law and as such be recognised. The article is about religion in Australia so therefore one would expect to information on every religion in Australia what ever it legal status.

Under Australian law there is no restriction on religion, this article even mentions that. The challenge is if you believe the religion to exist(ed) then you add it to the page. If you think its just a creation to manipulate the census then it doesn't apply to this article Gnangarra 15:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Jedi is added to the Religion in New Zealand#Jedi religion, and it even grants itself its own section. S♦s♦e♦b♦a♦l♦l♦o♦s ^{(Talk to Me)} 21:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Christianity in Australia

I think, like Hinduism in Australia, Islam in Australia and Judaism in Australia, Christianity in Australia should also be a seperate topic. Religion in Australia can give a broad view of all religions in Australia, but topics like Islam/Christianity/Hinduism in Australia give a more detailed account of that particular faith. Therefore, i am in support of Christianity in Australia being a different topic to Religion in Australia. Tarins01 03:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Also needs more details on Buddhism here and in a general article about Buddhism in Australia. --Sumple (Talk) 03:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Buddhism in Australia is now up and running.ßlηguγΣη | Have your say!!! - review me 02:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

The reason that Christianity in Australia has been sawn off by admins like enochlau and also users like Xtra and Beneaththelandslide is that it seems that you have started the article as an attack page or a point-making exercise. It will probably have a proper article once everything has calmed down.Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 03:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see such a standalone page if there is: a) sufficient relevant information, b) it is written neutrally and not to attack. Xtra 04:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Copy Edit

The bulk of the article should be the ABS stats/demographic, legal, and an historical overview. Then the article should then be more of a directory to various topics with 1 or 2 paragraph summarires of each specific religion including any demominational breakdown. Gnangarra 05:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Interfaith section

I am wondering if it is alright to put this kind of stuff in. A section that I put in about it in Buddhism in Australia was sawn off by an anon. I thought it wasn't inflammatory, and it was sourced.Blnguyen | Have your say!!! - review me 08:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

proposed merge of Christianity in Australia into Religion in Australia

I oppose merging the Christianity in Australia article into Religion in Australia. Christianity is the largest religion in Australia, but not the only one. --Scott Davis ^Talk 14:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

---

New version of Christianity in Australia Copied from Talk:Christianity in Australia

Is the above talk relevant, or are we starting from scratch?

Also, the bit "A number of current and past politicians present themselves as Christian in a partisan manner" seems a bit dodgy - there's no citations - it seems to be original research based on the authors' memory. Andjam 09:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

It looks like Paul's new article uses some of my draft article mentioned above, but other bits are absent. We are going to need to keep a watch and tight reign on unsourced or badly sourced statements. While I think this is an important article to have, it also has a history of vandalism and bias. I have noted that I oppose merging this article to the general Religion in Australia. Unfortunately, as I will be on holidays for the next month, my editing will be sporadic. --Scott Davis ^Talk 14:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I wrote this using Scott's draft as a start, but tried to be pick up on some aspects not covered. I agree work is required in mentioning individuals. It certainly can be improved. To achieve some balance in addressing Religion in Australia would appear to require an article on Christianity in its own right as there are articles on Islam in Australia and History of the Jews in Australia. To merge it would unbalance that article if the topic is to be addressed effectively. The Christian section would be limited to something quite short. Paul foord 15:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

---

Oppose merger for reasons above Paul foord 15:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the merge tags. --Scott Davis ^Talk 15:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

interfaith respect

I was wondering about adding a small section here and a larger article separately detailing information developed about police dealing with religious and ethnic differences. I was doing research on religious implications for oaths and ran across a remarkbably developed governent guide published in Australia and think it deserves some space - it also published some of the demographics reported here.

Here's the links I found:

Commissioner for Declarations, The Duties of especially pages 30-33.

VICTORIAN PARLIAMENT LAW REFORM COMMITTEE INQUIRY INTO OATHS AND AFFIRMATIONS WITH REFERENCE TO THE MULTICULTURAL COMMUNITY

There is a guide referenced/mentioned here as being very popular in this report.

it's mentioned here but has been pulled for further review towards a 3rd revision.

see Australasian Police Multicultural Advisory Bureau

However the wayback machine has the second edition still....

A Practical Reference to Religious Diversity for Operational Police

While the document is copyrighted I would consider rendering the majority of the text into the main article if justification can be found - I think it's that good.--Smkolins 04:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

More references directly or probably linked - OPENING ADDRESS Ivan Kolarik National Police Ethnic Advisory Bureau, A Practical Reference to Religious Diversity (New Zealand), National Consultations on eliminating prejudice against Arab and Muslim Australians - Strategies Document, Achieving Harmony through Religious Understanding a resource manual for teachers--Smkolins 04:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a reasonable topic to be covered. There also appears to be little information in the article about interfaith movements or relations between religions. Most of what is here so far is historic demographic data. Anyone adding relations info needs to remember WP:NPOV and WP:V so we don't end up with a hate diatribe. --Scott Davis ^Talk 14:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm wondering if the center of the article could be a significant amount of the text of A Practical Reference to Religious Diversity for Operational Police which has already passed through layers of review in a multifaith context - however while the document doesn't have any copyright notice the website it came from does. So what's the rule - it would be nice to use at least some of the art work in the document - making the article basically about this publication (not sure if I can track down rev 1, and rev 3 hasn't been released yet) and as much of the text. Then that article would be a //main article// that could be pointed to from this and similar articles. A number of the above refs could be secondary references for broader context.--Smkolins 02:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Something more primitive than a rough draft is here [[1]]--Smkolins 03:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, somewhat passed just a rough draft but there are serious questions editors need to make some judgements on that I am not qualified to determine about copyright content from an Australian government document even if done in good faith. Comments please. [[2]]--Smkolins 15:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, its about final. I'll be posting it as an article soon. Comments? Most of the religions have several of their own pages but either the content or the angle of information presented in the Guide seemed to demand more or less length in this article vs referencing other wikipedia articles. [[3]] --Smkolins 00:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Well my attempt was soundly trounced. Apparently I wasn't following copyright right. I tried a different article but it remains in limbo. If anyone has interest in interfaith respect perhaps they can help make a descent article reflecting a rare document. See A Practical Reference to Religious Diversity for Operational Police and Emergency Services/Temp‎.I had a small section in this article briefly reviewing the same document but it was deleted as a followup to deleting the original. If anyone thinks it's worthy perhaps someone could see about adding something similar.--Smkolins 00:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

No religion commentary

I chopped this text from the No religion section as it all seems like unsourced commentary and makes a lot of assumptions about why people tick the 'No Religion' box on the ABS census An increasing number of Australians no longer align themselves with institutional religion. Surveys like the Australian values survey indicate that many of these people believe in a personal God or higher power and have a spiritual experience. They simply do not want their spirituality institutionalised. On the other hand, some in a conscious and organised way find non-religious responses to their search for meaning. Some of these may belong to various humanist organisations and work for a better and less divided world gained through human means. There has also been an increase in various New Age self-fulfulment philosophies and semi-religious activities like astrology and the occult, although this may not fall into the "no religion" group alone. Ashmoo (talk) 16:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Prayer in parliament?

It seems that parliamentary standing orders in each state and territory, and in federal parliament, require that a prayer be said on each sitting day. I think this is worth mentioning as a reflection of religion in Australia. Does anyone know of any good references where this is discussed? Otherwise I can reference standing orders of each of the individual parliaments. Barrylb (talk) 13:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

A few things I would like to see added to the article:

• Religion in schools
• Religion in public institutions (local government, state parliament, federal parliament, courts, public service)
• Religion in politics (how much religion plays a part in elections and day to day discussions)

Only hard part is getting good references. Especially for things that are merely common practice rather than written in law or similar. Barrylb (talk) 05:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Wicca/Paganism in Australia

On this particular page, a certain user keeps deleting my 'Wicca/Paganism in Australia' paragraph and I want to know why. I've checked my facts, I've added citations & I'm not breaking any rules. So why is it being deleted? The page itself isn't being deleted, just the paragraph and the link in the 'Religion in Australia' Wicca & Paganism is one of many Australian religions and it has a right to be here just like Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. LilMizPiper

The main issue is notability. The following of this religion is small and it falls under 'other religions' in the table. We cannot list every minor religion in this article. Barrylb (talk) 06:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Seems the government of Australia has it's own standards about what is notable - A Practical Reference to Religious Diversity for Operational Police and Emergency Services - 2nd edition covers Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Spirituality; and Bahá'í, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, Jewish and Sikh Faiths. That list reduces the "Other" category to some 92 thousand. Going through the 2006 census (here shows 53 listed groups down to 5000 members (most of them Christian denominations, many of them national versions like Greek and Serbian Orthodox). Of the "small" religions Sikh shows 26k, not 50k, Pagan shows 15k, Baha'i 12k, Wiccan/Witchcraft at 8k, Humanism about 7k, and Australian Aboriginal at just over 5k. Below 5k (not mentioning small Christian denominations) we have Taoist, Druse, Nature Religion, Satanism, Zoroastrian, Rationalism, Theosophy, Jainism, Pantheism, and Druidism above 1k members.--Smkolins (talk) 15:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

See if that is more acceptable and general.--Smkolins (talk) 19:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)