Talk:Azazel

Original Languages

I think much of this would be clarified by using the original languages involved instead of relying on various inconsistant transliterations. This isn't difficult in the age of Unicode.--Blackjack@jolly-roger.com 22:25, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

What specifically are you referring to? I can't figure out what you mean. Please clarify. Makaristos 02:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Dumb Ass Newbie to wiki:talk

I don't know how to comment without editing someone else's comment.

Look, I heard one person say that this is also being confused with Azarel from the Batman comic.

I don't mean to be one of the faithful... but what are your sources? This is complete allegory compared to the KING James Auth. Version. It doesn't use Azazel as a proper or active noun, instead it speaks directly of the Scape-Goat. You can't claim to have better personal or educational wisdom than the translators of the KJV nor the editions leading up to that. If it was interesting myth worthy of association, it would be in the "Shakespeare Team" version. Shakespeare was able to rewrite the great tragedies because he researched and found a gold mine. He found myth and applied modern truth. If there was value here, it would be the KJV.

I can over turn this proganda based on Enoch not being canon for a reason from great minds. Look if you are going to use the Bible, understand the story and seek out the truth. If you weight the facts that Azazel is the scape-coat in line with considering that 'Azazel' means 'strength of the lord'... you'll find the complete story of god's love for man according to the traditional canon. God's strength is to save or forgive. You can forgive the Man and save the Goat at the same time. You might call it a demon, if you don't consider something natural. God saves the goat and forgives the man for making it a slave. At least the goat is grateful to god for the world we live in.

Blah-gaia-blah-goddess-blah... I write fiction too.

You should remove the bible verses if you can't find a reason not to include Jesus as the scape-goat. That's the story the bible tells... goat, lamb, strength of freedom, aryan promise to Abraham, pyramids, sahara desert... this entire entry in subjective and the bible connection with Leviticus should be limited due to the editorial liberties. Does the Volgate include Enoch and use Azazel in Leviticus? Sacrifice the subjective associations to Western Civilization's God and stop using it as your scapegoat and strength. Hail Satan! I am his prosecutor of fools! (The above was written by FinLives (Talk)

Please explain this better. What exactly are you trying to say? (Also, see your talk page.) Makaristos 06:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The actual identity of Azazel: Unknown

I took the liberty of rewriting the "Azazel in Leviticus" section to make it more accurate by reporting that we don't in fact know what Azazel's identity was. It could have been a person, place, or thing; the text just doesn't say. Later mythology, like the Book of Enoch, created a whole literary tradition out of Azazel, and I am not qualified to write about that. However, there are some things that I have corrected:

• The Leviticus text, though comparatively late compared to the rest of the Pentateuch, is much earlier than the Book of Enoch and the subsequent literary tradition about Azazel. I replaced the Leviticus section above the other sections to reflect this and show more clearly where the tradition grew out of.
• The scapegoat designated "for Azazel" was not called "Azazel"—Azazel is clearly something else. Why would the scapegoat and the place (or demon, or whatever) it was destined for have the same name?
• The word "Azazel" does not mean "the goat of removal". The derivation is unclear at best, possibly incorporating -el ("God", often used as a suffix in Hebrew to mean "of God"). The idea that the az part means "goat" is dubious because of the spelling in Hebrew; the az is not reduplicated (the actual spelling is ayin-zayin-aleph-zayin-aleph-lamed), so this leaves a part of the word unaccounted for.

Thanks for considering all this. Let's discuss. Makaristos 07:00, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

as far as I'm concerned, you made perfectly good edits and have improved the article. dab (ᛏ) 07:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Why, thank you. Makaristos 07:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Azhi Dahaka (meaning "The Big Snake") from Avestan lore may have influenced the development of Azazel in Semitic lore. ---Decius 08:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Interesting. I didn't know about that. Avestan is, however, an Indo-Iranian language, whereas Hebrew is Semitic, and these families aren't related. It is possible it's some kind of loanword, but the absence of other loanwords from Iranian languages as early as the Book of Leviticus is fairly telling in my opinion. On the other hand, it would be interesting to note this. Maybe I'll add a section about possible etymologies, and consolidate all the information we have come up with so far. Makaristos 15:37, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

no, come on, azhi is completely unrelated. If anything, compare Avestan *aza (Sanskrit aja) "goat"! Or rather look for a Semitic root. 'zz ""buzz? `zz "be strong"? wzz "repay"? dab (ᛏ) 16:18, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

or maybe, since the spelling is 'z'z'l, 'wz "to mock"? (as you see, my Semitic etymologizing skills are restricted to "ignore all weak radicals, and look for a root that looks vaguely similar" :) dab (ᛏ) 16:21, 17 Au

Hey, I've got it! I'll look on JSTOR when I get a second and come up with some actual scholarship on this, with names and articles we can cite! (-: Makaristos 16:59, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Azazel is not etymologically related to the Azhi element (which is from PIE *angwhi-, 'snake') in Azhi Dahaka. Etymologically, I would guess that Azaz- meant 'strong' or 'lusty', with 'lusty' resonating with 'goat'. ---Decius 17:02, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Could you clarify what you believe the connection to be, or why attention should be drawn to Azhi Dahaka? I don't see the connection. Thanks. Makaristos 17:08, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Uzza links these threads together: power, lust (she's connected with Aphrodite, etc.), goats (the goat being a symbol of lust and associated with Aphrodite, etc.). But this is symbolism, not necessarily identical roots for the words. ---Decius 17:43, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Decius, I find it slightly confusing to have you change your signatures in the middle of a conversation :) ---Azazel 18:42 , 17 August 2005 (UTC)

If goats were associated with Uzza (as they were with her Roman and Greek counterpart), that might be relevant to the lore surrounding Azazel. ---Decius 18:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I was at Yom Kippur services this year and could not help but notice that there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Azazel is evil. He is simply whatever it is that takes the goat that bears the sins of the people. There is no other reference to him anywhere in the Torah, I spent weeks looking for it while I was at shul. I'm a little confused as to the demonizing of Azazel both by the Talmudic scholars and the media. I just thought that that should be mentioned. Oh, and El does not mean "of God." It's meaning is one of the mysteries of the Torah, but it proceeds the names of most of the important biblical figures. Very good information you've got there, and I have a deep respect for your skills in etymology.gust 2005 (UTC)

Roll-call

I'm going to list some Semitic demonic figures here with similar names (by the way, Decius used to study demonology but he's rusty at it now) and where they occur.

• Auza---Alternate form of Azza (see below).
• Aza---Alternate form of Azza (see below).
• Azza---Mentioned in Rabbinic lore, Solomonic lore. In the Talmud, Azza and Azael are said to have fathered the Sedim upon Naamah, before the Flood.
• Azael---"In Midrash Petirat Mosheh, Azael is mentioned as one of two angels (the other being Ouza) who came down from heaven and was corrupted."---Gustav Davidson, A Dictionary of Angels including the Fallen Angels.
• Azazel
• Aziel
• Azzael
• Azzazel
• Oza
• Ouza
• Uzza

All these forms are Shem ('name') compounded to Aza (Yaza, Iaza, etc.):

• Semiaza
• Semjaza
• Semyaza
• Shemhazai
• Shem-Yaza

---There's too much stuff to quote from my references now, but Davidson regularly states that Uzza (in these sources depicted as male not female) and Aza were interchangeable in the literature, so they may have the same etymology. It's pretty clear from this list (they are almost all interchangeable and may refer to the same or similar figure) that it is useless to just isolate Azazel and examine the etymology on its own. ---Decius 19:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

well, I cannot rule out that popular etymologies between Azazel and Uzza, Azazel and serpents etc. were at play, but we have to clearly separate this from the actual etymology. Azazel appears in Exodus, in a goat-connection. Even if you think that Exodus was written in the sixth century, it is highly unlikely that Azazel is a hybrid Persian-Hebrew compound. Connection with Uzza is also impossible (where is the `ayin?). But sure, demonology is basically free association, I agree that such parallels have almost certainly been drawn before. dab (ᛏ) 08:19, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I made clear above that I don't connect the Leviticus Azazel to PIE *angwhi-, 'snake' (from which comes Persian azhi). But I doubt that Semitic Azza and Azael have a different etymology from the duplicated Azazel. I maintain that one should be aware of the forms Azael, Azza, etc., when considering the etymology of Azazel. None of those forms I listed above are Persian, they are all from a Semitic source. It may be popular etymology (as I indicated when I said may have the same etymology) that developed a progression from Auza, Ouza, Azza, Uzza, but I haven't seen evidence that they are definitely not sharing the same etymology. The phonetics involved make Uzza and Azza unlikely, but I see nothing preventing Azazel and Azza (unduplicated) from being connected. Azael in my reference is said to be a compound of strength (aza) and god (el); Semyaza means "He who is named Aza (strength)". Azza on its own is said to mean 'strong', etc. So it's not just Azazel on his own here. ---Decius 08:36, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I dropped in on you guys (Makristos and Dab) discussing the etymology of Azazel, and noticed no mention of Azael (Semitic), Azza (Semitic), Aza (Semitic), Azzael (Semitic), and all the other forms known, that may have the same etymology. I admit I threw in Azhi Dahaka because I felt like "fucking around" with you guys while at the same pointing to a mythological parallel. ---Master Killer 09:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Azarel

Azarel redirects here, but as far as I know these names have nothing to do with one another. Anyone know better? BeavisSanchez 10:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Forty days and nights

The bottom of the third paragraph in the main article includes the phrase "escaped destruction by living for forty days and forty nights on an ark". The forty days and forty nights was only how long it rained (Gen. 7:12). The occupants of the ark lived in it for one year and ten days (compare Gen. 7:11 with 8:13 ff.) The text should be corrected accordingly. 65.135.87.11 05:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)GRR

Reorganization

Rewrote in a way that separates out what the original sources stated from what (some) scholars interpreting those sources said later. Also distinguished literal meaning of original from interpretations. --Shirahadasha 04:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced Statements

Right now virtually all the interpretave material is unsourced. Where did this material come from? Right now large portions of the article are out of compliance with WP:Verifiability and WP:RS and this material will need to be deleted if sources can't be found. --Shirahadasha 01:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Renewing call for sources, will delete unsourced material in a week or so. --Shirahadasha 09:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"Jewish legend" Edit

Removed this edit to the "In the Hebrew Bible" section here:

Jewish legend speaks of Azazel as the angel who refused to bow down before Adam.

Issues: a. Content is in the wrong place, this doesn't appear in the Hebrew Bible. b. Need to source Aggadah and Midrash as other edits. What book is it in? c. Aggadah and Midrash should be referred to as such (with a link), not by a POV term like "legend" or "myth". Many Haredi Jews believe all or some of this material and do not regard it, or some of it, as legend. Best, --Shirahadasha 09:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"Hebrew Bible/Rabbinic Literature" Content

Removed the following material to talk:

Traditionally the word "Azazel" has been translated as "scapegoat" because the Masoretic texts read ‘ēz’ōzēl (rather than ‘ăzā’zēl), "goat which removes [sins]". However, more recent findings of older Hebrew texts (see Dead Sea scrolls) read ‘ăzā’zēl and ‘ăzaz’ēl, "Azazel". The confusion of the word is due to the Hebrew niqqudoth, vowels represented separately from consonants (‘ăzā’zēl and ‘ēz’ōzēl share the consonantal base ‘z’zl).

The "scapegoat" referred to in many translations of Leviticus (here translated as Azazel) most likely does not refer to either of the two goats mentioned in the chapter ("the goat for a scapegoat" is often changed to "the goat as a scapegoat"), but more probably refers to someone or something (see cliff theory below) that is a scapegoat — therefore, possibly a demon Azazel.

The first goat (for Yahweh) was to be used as a sacrifice, while "the goat chosen by lot for Azazel must be presented alive before Yahweh to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert for Azazel" (Lev. 16:10, niv).

This is not to say that the goat being sent to "Azazel" is a sacrifice to the demon (if Azazel is, indeed, a demon) — the Torah itself explicitly says not to worship anyone but Yahweh (Exodus 20:3-6). The goat (instead of the Israelites) is being sent to be forsaken by God, a point made clearer in Leviticus 16:21-22, when Aaron was to "lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites — all their sins — and put them on the goat's head." He would then "send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task." The goat would "carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man must release it in the desert" (niv). Leviticus also says that "the man who releases the goat for Azazel must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp" (16:26, niv)

THis material clearly does not come from either the Hebrew Bible or Rabbinic literature as claimed. Wikipedia should not misrepresent or misattribute the contents of the Hebrew Bible or Rabbinic literature. If some of this material is commentary from one or more contemporary sources, these sources must be attributed. Unattributed claims that a particular interpretation is "most probable" or similar are particularly problematic, as they violate WP:SOAP. --Shirahadasha 12:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Good that you removed those parts, I thought they were a bit problematic. I think the last part of the section In First Enoch actually takes care of the confusion there. It seems the person who wrote it finds the article in confliction with their inherent dogma. -- Kerowren (talk • contribs • count) 17:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I suspect much of this is likely perfectly legitimate material from modern commentators, and the difficulty is most likely attribution and sourcing. Perhaps sources will surface and this material can be put in an appropriate section. It's fine to present e.g. Nancy Pelosi's opinion of George Bush, but there's a problem if someone tries to present it unsourced in a section entitled "In George Bush's writings". --Shirahadasha 23:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

scapegoat

Why is William Tyndale's translation of "scapegoat" definitely incorrect? It seems like it could be true to me. 68.239.71.45 18:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, especially based on the Masoretic Text, which spells it `Z'Z'L (I'm using ' to indicate alef, and ` for ayin). How does the "correct" etymology ("strong of god," "impudent to god" etc.) account for the first alef? It's an unusual matris lexionis. 69.203.64.233 05:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Azazel3.jpg

Image:Azazel3.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 21:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

In Islam?

Hey there. I was recently cleaning up the previously disastrous Iblis article, and in this process I came upon a source which stated that Azazel was the original name possessed by the Islamic version of the devil, Iblis, before his disobedience to God earned him condemnation and his new name (which etymologically relates to "despair"). I'm wondering if this information can (or even should) be worked into the article; I don't see enough information to start a solitary section, and the given sections don't seem like welcome homes, either.--C.Logan 20:34, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Tekken 6

The main antagonist of the video game Tekken 6 is a demon named Azazel. I'll make a note of it in the Popular Culture part. Jienum (talk) 19:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

In Music

Hello, just wanted to add a note about bands that use the name Azazel. Morbid Angel used in the lyrics of Brainstorm on their second album, Blessed Are The Sick. "Azazel, lend to me your wings of twelve, I shall fly into the storm". There is also a band from New Zealand that goes by the name Dawn of Azazel.

Popular culture section

I added a popular culture section, and reference to a book that is based specifically on the Azazel story. This reference is important here because it would otherwise be lost to English speakers. The reason for this is that the book title was translated as 'devil' instead of 'Azazel'. I am not sure if I formatted the popular culture section correctly. I will make sure and fix it if I need to. Yeshuahasochek (talk) 14:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)