Talk:Anomie

Clarification question about sentence in beginning

The contemporary English understanding of the word anomie differs from how the term was originally defined and used by Greeks, often becoming a synonym of the word Αναρχία (see Anarchy).

Which one is a synonym for anarchy, "the contemporary English understanding" or the original Greek use? Or both? This should be clarified. Evan Donovan 20:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The Greeks never got confused about the two words because a rule was not the same as a law. Unfortunately, those who came later did not maintain a strict distinction, allowing a rule or principle to include "legally defined" and accepting that a "law" might only be informally enforced. The opening sentence is a reasonably acceptable modern definition. The second paragraph points to the etymology and correctly indicates that some non-Greek speakers have shaded the meanings of the two words (anomie and anarchy) together because of the modern connotational flexibility of the word "norm". I am not convinced there is a problem to be solved. David91 03:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm just dense (other people can jump in here) but as a non-Greek speaker, I'm still confused about the distinction between law and norm. At least your clarification answers my question though - I would suggest recasting the sentence as "In modern English use, the term often becomes a synonym for anarchy." and then say something to the effect of "By contrast, the Greeks reserved the term law (arche) for norms that were formally enforced, whereas nomos refers to those which are enforced by social pressure alone." Evan Donovan 13:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I would hope that no expert would ever use anomie as a synonym for "anarchy". They really are very different concepts. I think that the confusion arises from the explanation of anomie as normlessness because lay readers want to interpret that as a social situation where there are no rules. Neither Durkheim nor the later writers who use the concept of anomie would accept that interpretation. Actually, anomie can arise because of the strictures of the countervailing norms. I did not write the original but, to avoid confusion, I will rewrite it. David91 14:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Protagonist of The Stranger

I may be splitting hairs, but to refer to the protagonist of The Stranger as suffering from anomie would be to miss the point of the novel. See what you think.

The protaganist is not the sufferer...It is a comment on the society and environment from which the protaganist withdraws.

Changed it and added the Dostoevsky and film refs, made separate section. Is the current phrasing better? Edonovan 03:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Ik tribe reference

From the article: The word, spelled anomy or also anomie, has also been used to apply to societies or groups of people within a society, who suffer from chaos due to lack of commonly recognized explicit or implicit rules of good conduct, or worse, to the reign of rules promoting isolation or even predation rather than cooperation (consider the Ik tribe).

The Wikipedia article on the Ik tribe does no support this use, as far as i can see. Turnbull's popular if specious "The Mountain People" might lead one to the conclusion, though it seems the more recent field work has discredited much of his analysis. i plan to remove the parenthetical phrase in two weeks if there is no objection.

Changes to article

Have removed reference to Ik tribe and changed the reference to 'suffering' from anomie to 'experiencing'. -- James

Could someone clarify the point about Hayek, please?

This is not as clear as it could be:

The word, spelled anomy or also anomie, has also been used to apply to societies or groups of people within a society, who suffer from chaos due to lack of commonly recognized explicit or implicit rules of good conduct, or worse, to the reign of rules promoting isolation or even predation rather than cooperation.

Friedrich Hayek notably uses the word anomy with this meaning.

Which meaning is this - the latter meaning (rules promoting isolation) or the whole paragraph (i.e. a social disorder)?

Cheers, Singkong2005 09:51, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Suspected Original Research, "Anomie, in contemporary English means ..."

The current text reads:

"Anomie, in contemporary English, means the absence of any kind of rule, law, principle or order."

However, dictionary.com does not report any meaning involving the "absence of any kind of rule, law, principle or order".

I will delete the text in question, unless verfiable sources are provided, or a request made for more time to locate verifiable sources is made within 48 hours. --BostonMA 14:32, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

In the absense of any supporting source or requests for time, I have altered the definition. --BostonMA 13:01, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Why exclude a dictionary.com definition?

I added dictionary.com definition, why remove that? It's an actual source, as apart from people with too much time on their hand and wishing to change the definition of the word.

Yes, this anomie gives a wider scope, but do not forget the actual textbook definition. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Azurelove (talk • contribs) .

Anomie/Anarchy

This sentence: "The Greeks distinguished between nomos (νόμος, “law”), and arché (αρχή, “starting rule, axiom, principle”). " and the following passage make very little sense to me. Can anyone provide evidence that nomos and arché were systematically distinguished in the way suggested? for that matter, can anyone explain what distinction it is suggested that the Greeks made? I cannot understand what is being said about monarchy ("subject to nomos") as opposed to majority rule ("an aspect of arche"). If "arche" means "rule", what does it mean for it to have "aspects"? Unless these claims can be sourced (or rather MADE CLEARLY, since how else can we know what claim we are trying to source?), the whole d--n thing should go.--Gheuf 15:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Quick summary of Wikipedia's anomie page

Anomie (Anomy) – From the Latin “a”-“nomos” (without norms) ; Lack of rules, structure and organization ; Not to be confused with anarchy (rules yes, rulers no) ; A condition whereby rules on how people ought to behave with each other break down, leaving people unsure what to expect from one another ; A state where norms (expectations of behaviors) are confused, unclear or not present ; A breakdown of social norms leading to deviance, dissatisfaction, conflict, crime and suicide ; Chaos due to lack of commonly recognized rules of conduct ; Chaos due to rules promoting isolation and predation rather than cooperation ; See Durkheim, Hayek.