Talk:Sōsuishi-ryū

There are no "unauthorized" dojo of Sosuishiryu in existence. If one wanted to start up another entry, listing the true name of that "Unauthorized" and recently created style, that would be fine. Otherwise please do not associated it with Sosuishiryu as it exists in Japan or at the shibu dojo overseas- simply because there is no longer any connection (by their own admission and doing). Thanks! -Russ

Mekugi 11:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

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Kogusoku 04:09, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

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Please make sure to follow these basic guidelines when editing this article!! It simplifies the editing workflow and creates a harmonious, problem free environment in which to expand the content!! Also, although it hasn't happened yet this is preventative maintanence: Please make sure to keep all talk outside the improvement of this article out of this discussion area.

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Thanks and happy editing! Truly, Mekugi 14:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Futagami-ryu merged

I just merged the Futagami-ryu article to this page. I feel that the content on the original Futagami-ryu article was rather bleak and the content on the SSR article is more detailed, so there was really nothing it could add to the page. If anyone feels otherwise, please feel free to add it into the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mekugi (talk • contribs) 15:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Avoiding edit wars....

No one wants to be involved in an edit war. They need to be talked out....that means discussed here....as per Wikipedia guidelines - as a matter of Wiki public record.

All the best and thanks!

Mekugi 08:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"Koshi no mawari" refers to swordsmanship?

Can someone check this against the sources used in the article? I don't have any information about Sosuishi-ryu, but I do have at least one good source stating that "kumiuchi koshi no mawari" is a term that refers to grappling (armed and unarmed). "Kumiuchi" and "koshi no mawari" were also used separately to refer to grappling skills. Obviously, "koshi no mawari" just means "around the waist", so I suppose that Sosuishi-ryu could be using the term in a unique way; I'm just urging someone to double-check it, and if the article is currently accurate, perhaps a note could be added that "koshi no mawari" historically refers to grappling. Bradford44 18:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

This source is probably from Draeger's book on classical martial arts about Takeuchi ryu. There is a slight error in what Mr. Draeger is writing because I suspect he wasn't that familiar with it (it happens). The truth is that it is not "really" grappling at all, but the use of the short sword and other items around the waist. In Takenouchi ryu it implies the use of the kogusoku/yoroi doshi, so it is not linked to grappling entirely, but to the use of weapons. This is how it is used in Sosuishi ryu because it also implies the use of the kodachi. The Makimono of Sosuishi ryu dated about 200 ago list the techniques under two categories, one being hte Kumi Uchi and the Other being Koshi no Mawari. This is also found in the book published by the Sekiryukan which shows some of the scrolls. :)

Mekugi 08:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

This is one very good source available online: http://www.geocities.jp/minamoto_hitotsugu/kogusoku.htm

"The oldest known book on the bugei ryuha of Japan, the Honcho Bugei Shouden (Vol.9 1914) states: "Kogusoku has been transmitted since ancient times. Takenouchi, one of the oldest bujutsu schools, is a great example of this because of its famous techniques with the Kogusoku (which are now called Koshinomawari.)"

Takenouchi Hisamori, after being enlightened by the god Atago, created the base of the ryu in 25 omote kata, which are known as the koshinomawari. Therefore, one cannot say they learned Takenouchi ryu without mastering the Kogusoku Koshinomawari.

Legend recounts that Atago, disguised as a Yamabushi, broke Hisamori's 2-shaku 4-sun bokuto in two and said "The long sword is no good for fighting" and taught him the kata of the kogusoku (short sword). The kata has remained in the ryu since the year 1532.

In the Kogusoku Koshinomawari kata, both opponents use 1-shaku 2-sun Kodachi. They first start in the "zaai" (seated) posture then go to kumiuchi, techniques designed around attacking– the opponent with the kodachi.

Kumiuchi generally referes to armor, but there are kata for dealing with bare-handed and tachi (long sword) wielding opponents."

Hope that helps!! Mekugi 16:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Founder's name

Someone also needs to double check the founder's name, which I think should be Futagami Hanosuke Masanori, and not Futagami Hannosuke Masaaki. Bradford44 18:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Masanori is a mis-reading/mis-pronunciation of the name Masaaki. The founder's name appears in several other Japanese documents which concur this plus it matches the phonetic patterns of speech at that time (the edo era) just as one can trace words back to the times of Shakespeare and his pronunciations. The name was misread, it found its way into print and for lack of any type of research, it stuck. Mekugi 08:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Let me try to get you to reason this out and see if you can understand where I am coming from on this. The name of the School, in a simple, spoken manner, is Sosuishi ryu. See here: http://www16.ocn.ne.jp/~sekiryu/jdouzyou.html It's the first set of Kanji in brackets under the pictures. Now look a little further down and see this: 柔術（組打）と居合術（腰之廻）Jujutsu (Kumi Uchi) to Iaijutsu (Koshi no Mawari) (the "to" means "and"). So, you are right, the components are Kumi Uchi and Koshi no Mawari. However, there is something being drastically missed here. Allow me to point out that these same components are usually listed as part of the old school name on the scrolls found in Fukuoka and in Tokyo. In the modern-era, the full group name of the Sekiryukan Hombu is Sosuishi ryu Jujutsu Kai, which dates from the mid 20th century (during the 1960's, as you know). So, this is really about old vs. new. They are the same thing, right? So it really doesn't matter as long as it is explained. It's not something to put yourself through a ringer for.

One is the older, formal name of the school and the other is a new, colloqual name *but* they are pointing to the same thing, more or less. As the Koshi no Mawari and the Kumi Uchi are extensions of one another coming from Takenouchi ryu (which can also be written/pronounced Takeuchi ryu), they were probably summarized as "Jujutsu" for a modern audience in the 20th century.

For example, in the speeches given by the members in Fukuoka at the Sekiryukan's anniversary, they all said "SosuishiTSU-ryu," very, very clearly. The reason for this is simply a modern pronunciation issue. The modern is SosuishiTSU-ryu and the older is Sosuishi-ryu and that's all, no big revelation there. The kanji stay the same. In a way, the same goes for the full, old name Sosuishi ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi no Mawari- but it is not a matter of pronunciation or colloqual speech patterns when it comes to the added, new term: "Jujutsu". In fact I have reason to believe that this came about during the time of -or- just after Aoyagi Kibei, who re-wrote many of the scrolls of the ryuha and added Judo techniques into the curriculum during the late 19th and early 20th century.

For proof of the old reading "Sosuishi Ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi No Mawari", please read the name of the ryhuha listed under the picture of the makimono on the very front page of the Japanese version of the website. (For easy reference you can see it here: http://www16.ocn.ne.jp/~sekiryu/jindex.html). Notice that the caption reads:　双水執流組打腰之廻(伝書) "Sosuishi ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi No Mawari (densho)". If these were mere components, the caption would be "Sosuishi ryu -no- Kumi uchi -to- Koshi no Mawari (densho)" or "Sosuishi ryu's Kumi Uchi and Koshi no Mawari (scrolls)". The reason for this is because in fact this is the proper, old, academic name of the school and it is why it is listed in the book Sekiryukan no Chosen and the name written on scrolls written over 150-200 years ago. It is not really a subject of any debate here in Japan, I can assure you. Furthermore, I feel it is safe to believe that this is regarded as a very low-brow subject of argument by Shitama sensei and a cavil of people outside of Japan. So, there's really no argument here...just a matter of explanation. Kudos! :)

Mekugi (talk) 17:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The book "双水ノ流" or "Sosuishi no ryu" was hand-written by Shitama Shusaku (Shuzo)in Showa 16 (1941) as an archive of densho the Sekiryukan had collected over the ages. The original is, in fact, still kept at the Sekiryukan today. The formal name "Sosuishi-ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari" appears in there on at least three occasions as the name of the school.

On the first line of page two of "Sosuishi no Ryu", the title is "Sosuishi-ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari lineage".

Then, on the last line of that page, the text reads as follows:

"Futagami changed the name of Futagami-ryu to Sosuishi-ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari".

Another instance of the exact name occuring in "Sosuishi no Ryu" is in the Densho lists of the 11th inheritor, Shitama Yagoro Munetsuna. In this section several of his menkyo from a variety of ryu are listed, the final one is entitled "Sosuishi-ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari," given to him by Shitama Muneaki (the 10th inheritor).

Then, as an outside source of where this name is used (again), the famous book published by the Takeuchi-ryu (the formal name of that the ryu being Take<no>uchi-ryu Kogusoku Koshi no Mawari <竹内流小具足腰之廻>) you have "Sosuishi-ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari" clearly printed as the formal name of the Ryu on page 278.

See here:
page 278

Area Below Reserved for Attacks on Russ Ebert, Not on the Content of the Article

I went ahead and created this section since personal attacks will not cease. Anyone having content or ways to make the article better, please post above this area, to keep things organized. Go ahead and lambast me on the bottom-half, if you feel so inclined...

-)

Mekugi (talk) 18:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

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Sadly, their is no scholarly discussion on this "discussion page". The online conversation, (for anyone seeking the truth), can be viewed in the history section. The discussion is attempting to be monopolized by one person, Russ Ebert, who posts as Mekugi, and who continues to delete any contrary view to his speculative research and conclusions. This includes the view and position of the headmaster Shitama, Manzo Sensei.

This discussion has deteriorated into the gutter on more than one occassion. Again, the vitriol has been initially initiated by Russ Ebert, (check the history of the discussion). I believe it is my responsibility as a direct student of Shitama Sensei, and Fink Sensei, to attempt to set the record straight. Their are, and have been numerous innacuracies, and deceptions in this article. They serve an agenda, rather than state the truth.

Shitama Sensei is the 16th Inheritor of Sosuishi ryu. He IS Sosuishi ryu. Sosuishi ryu is a living art, and it's current and future course is in Shitama Sensei's rightful hands.

We as students have no place on a self serving, speculative, "archeological quest" to interpret the intent, context, and texture of previous headmasters when reading what they wrote on "ancient scrolls". It's innapropriate and ill-mannered.

Again I state an old adage that is relative to this discussion: "a student of Budo should strive to remain humble and readily admit their lack of knowledge. Children brag, and behave like experts."

Again, my position is this: Shitama Sensei, as the 16th Dai Menkyo has clearly stated that the name of his familial ryu is Sosuishi ryu, not any other derivation.

I don't expect this post to be disputed, I expect it to be deleted in an attempt to stifle, and control the debate. Again, I submit that we have Fink Sensei mediate this dispute for accuracy. he is Shitama Sensei's senior representative, and is fluent in english. He has also discussed this matter directly with Shitama Sensei. I expect my suggestion of mediation will be ignored again

Bill Williams