Talk:Thelema

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George Knowles

controverscial.com is the personal website of this author, so his essay on Francis Dashwood is self-published and not a reliable source. Do you have some reason to believe he is a well-known writer on this and/or similar topics and has been published elsewhere? 58.176.17.98 (talk) 15:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Invitation for Dan to discuss edit by edit

Dan, Here's a list of a series of edits made separately so that each one could be explained. It is NOT a series of reverts because a series of edits is taken as a single edit for the purposes of 3RR. So, since Wikipedia is supposed to be collaborative, why don't you single out the edits that you disagree with, give a REASON WHY you disagree with it, and attempt to work out a compromise. I am and have all along been willing to do so, but you simply don't seem to be interested in discussing the actual content, but simply your own straw men. I agreed with some of your points and rewrote many parts of the article to address your objections, but you won't even discuss point-by-point with me? What's up with that? 88.191.34.70 (talk) 14:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

1. 14:02, 4 February 2008 (→Cosmology - fix spelling of Stèle)
2. 13:58, 4 February 2008 (→The Book of the Law - reword to remove fact tag)
3. 20:32, 3 February 2008 (→Skepticism - link didn't work, fix)
4. 16:46, 3 February 2008 (→Aleister Crowley's work - "many believe" are weasel words; the source make a definite statement and Crowley's writings support it, no need for weaseling)
5. 16:40, 3 February 2008 (→Skepticism - good addition, improve reference format and other details; note that MoS dictates that blockquote (not colon) be used for sourced quotes)
6. 16:30, 3 February 2008 (→References - add reference for newly added citation)
7. 16:28, 3 February 2008 (→Rabelais' Thelema - add citation)
8. 16:20, 3 February 2008 (→Historical background - again, Crowley's thoughts and ideas are the subject of a later section)
9. 16:17, 3 February 2008 (→The Book of the Law - this assertion needs to be cited)
10. 16:16, 3 February 2008 (→Aleister Crowley's work - note was not a reference, did not seem at all related to the point. if an expanation of the astral is needed, please add to the text of the article, then source)
11. 16:14, 3 February 2008 (→Aleister Crowley's work - restore reference)
12. 16:11, 3 February 2008 (→Historical background - this sentence even doesn't belong here, but rather in the Crowley section)
13. 16:08, 3 February 2008 (→Liber II - how does the comment about tireless activity apply to the subject of ethics?)
14. 16:07, 3 February 2008 (→Ethics - change misrepresented what the cited reference states)
15. 16:04, 3 February 2008 (→Practices and observances - clarify in a different way, "sometimes" is misleading)
16. (16:02, 3 February 2008 (→True Will - restore more text elided without explanation or discussion)
17. 16:00, 3 February 2008(→Aleister Crowley's work - restore text elided without explanation or discussion)
18. 15:57, 3 February 2008 (→Aleister Crowley's work - online foums and bulletin boards may not be used as source, long quotes interpreted by the Wikipedia editor are not in good form)
19. 15:52, 3 February 2008 (→Rabelais - there was no need to change the heading)
20. 15:50, 3 February 2008 (detail)
21. 15:47, 3 February 2008 (championed doesn't really feel like a neutral word)
22. 15:44, 3 February 2008 (remove Knowles based details, article is self-published on his personal website, see talk page)

Did you post this list here because you want me to post responses after the appropriate edit descriptions? I've come to dislike that style of commenting, but I'll do it if you prefer. Please add your responses here at the end of the section. Now, by your current argument, you originally broke 3RR by making 3 reverts and then one more revert that you broke into pieces. (And bear in mind that the line you refer to describes our usual practice, not the official policy.) Meanwhile, WP:Banning policy seems to say that I have a right to revert any banned user's edits, "regardless of the merits of the edits themselves. As the banned user is not authorized to make those edits, there is no need to discuss them prior to reversion." But of course, we should follow the spirit of the rules rather than the letter and try to work by consensus. In this case, the spirit of the policy is that banned users have no right to edit Wikipedia, and people restoring their edits have the burden of proof. User:Ekajati worked to fake consensus, giving a false impression of agreement with hir position. You yourself have yet to win a single supporter (perhaps because the most scholarly source for your/Ekajati's definition actually refers to a place in a story, the Abbey of Thélème. Although curiously, an anonymous editor has deleted that article.) Instead, we see a small but growing list of editors who want you to stop reverting. More on this list of edits later. Dan (talk) 04:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for actual discussion of content, as I've been requesting now for over a week. I'm not sure what you mean about "Ekajati's version". I'm not reverting to it. In case you hadn't noticed, I've moved the article quite a ways from what you call "Ekajati's version" and most of my reverts are to my own edits, content that wasn't here when we started this. As for your "growing list of editors", you seem to mean three, maybe four? Editors who don't seem very active and strangely enough are never here at the same time? Those editors, Dan? Now you. you seem to be a real editor, with over 1000 edits and they aren't all to Thelemic articles. But Thiebes has a total of 54 edits, Stealthepiscopalian has 21 edits, and the mysterious Antaios632 has a grand total of 10 edits. Is it any wonder no established Wikipedia editors have bothered with your pathetic RfC? This sort of situation is what WP:THIRD is for... 24.205.159.15 (talk) 05:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Dan's first respsonse

How did you even expect me to do this, since putting these after their list items would destroy the numbers? I may add diff links later, I can't be bothered right now.

2 minor point: replaced accurate claim with false one. Also for some reason removed a well-known fact with many possible sources available through an Internet near you.

4 Crowley's writings support it? He doesn't say this even in Antecedents, and in fact he disputes it. See response to 17 and 18.

8 along with 12, if I have the numbers right, removed a more accurate account of what he says in Antecedents.

10 Here we come to the heart of the matter. You deleted an example of Crowley's usage ("not Works of Magick, according to the Law of Thelema"). It explains his definition. (And I added it as a note to the phrase system he called Thelema.) Now, the "Rabelaisian Thelemites" you've pointed to all use magic in a way that I doubt Rabelais would recognize, they all live after Crowley, and they don't even deny his influence. Again, one of them says flat out that "Rabelais is a convenient name to show that Crowley borrowed his ideas and was just one thread in much wider fabric." Yet even with a vast Historical Background section, even with a compromise first sentence that fits Ekajati's definition, even with the Contemporary Thelema section emphasizing variety, you still object to a clear account of the usage that apparently created all modern Thelema. (See #Definition and #Definition: comments?, not to mention the archive and my previous comment about the scholarly sources.)

13 removed another central aspect of the system. If we mention this source (and we should), then we should tell the reader what it says. I trust you agree with the summary. I see nothing controversial in the sentence.

14 weren't you just telling us somewhere that Wikipedia does not interpret scripture? And yet here you are doing it, giving a disputed interpretation as fact. (Are you noticing a theme here?) Would you prefer we added, "in the view of one guy"?

15 I'm not sure why you'd think "both heterosexual and homosexual practices" is less misleading, since obviously the latter did not apply to every student. I'm not even sure about the first.

16 this belongs in Aleister Crowley#Controversy, unless you honestly think Thelema needs a discussion of his seemingly contradictory views on the subject. Look at the size of the freaking article.

17 claims that Crowley biographer Lawrence Sutin disagrees with his subject, which seems absurdly biased. Sutin disagrees with his subject's written words. Anyone who's read Aleister "Book of Lies" Crowley at all should know the difference, even if they haven't seen part III of this. Which brings us to:

18 I'll explicitly add Sutin p 126 as a source here, since you seem unable to see the obvious. You also removed the whole quote from Antecedents that makes it clear we shouldn't trust everything Crowley says there. And presenting evidence instead of a necessarily biased summary does indeed seem like good form. By contrast, you and Ekajati have created the false impression that Crowley endorses your view clearly and unambiguously, when in fact he doesn't even say it ambiguously.

19 to the contrary, the word "Thelema" in the heading adds nothing good and falsely (or at least unverifiably) suggests that a philosophy by this name exists independently of Crowley and Liber AL. (See response to 10.) This is also a User:Ekajati edit, of course.

21 I don't think your feelings suffice. But of course we could change the wording as long as we take #Definition into account. The introduction at User:Dan/Thelema did so without actually making this claim. I think I've forgotten something here, but again I have no time for more. Dan (talk) 06:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Note: your version is not under discussion, I don't consider it an option. It lacks the breadth of vision and NPOV required of a good article candidate. 88.191.50.87 (talk) 13:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Those who just got here may be interested to know that our unregistered friend here nominated his/her version using a now-blocked Tor node. See WP:No open proxies. Dan (talk) 18:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Since the policy specifically states that it does not prohibit the use of open proxies for legitimate editing, and that editors not engaged in vandalism may use them as long as they remain open, that seems rather like a smear attempt. -Will in China 05:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.244.27.53 (talk)

We'll start with point 10, since you say it is the most important.

Point by Point discussion

point 2

Dan said: "minor point: replaced accurate claim with false one. Also for some reason removed a well-known fact with many possible sources available through an Internet near you."

Response: I've replaced "three" with "several" which I believe resolves the inaccuracy. I am not responsible for searching out sources for uncited information which you added. You are. Will in China (talk) 18:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Point 4

I believe this has been resolved by using "may have" rather than "many believe". The issue here is not what people believe or how many believe it, it's that the simple common sense answer to where Crowley got the word Thelema and the phrase "Do what thou wilt" is Rabelais. We can't trust what Crowley said about preternatural entities. Unlikely claims require strong sources. Since there are no reliable thrid-party eyewitness accounts to the event, we have to defer to common sense. Will in China (talk) 18:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

What on Earth are you saying? Who is common sense? Dan (talk) 21:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I take it you have no further objections to the current wording. Will in China (talk) 22:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I do think it seems foolish, and more weaselly than the other wording. The other way puts the focus on sources who believe it rather than asserting anything about the topic itself. Dan (talk) 22:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

But I do think we've made progress. Perhaps we should focus on the intro now. Dan (talk) 22:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

But we don't really know what other people believe or how many is many. All we know is what some people have written. Will in China (talk) 22:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for acknowledging that. Can we strike this one off as resolved for the sake of compromise? Will in China (talk) 22:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Probably, yes. Dan (talk) 01:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

points 8, 12

I removed all mention of Crowley in this section, as well as the sections on Rabelais and Dashwood. What Crowley says about these two points belongs in the Crowley section if it is important. I leave it to you to determine how best to integrate it with the existing references to Antecedents already in that section. These sections are under the heading Historical background, not Opinions expressed by Crowley on the historical background. How Crowley integrated the past usages of what became his Law of Thelema is explicitly part of Aleister Crowley's work. I am not prejudiced against bringing these points up in that section. Will in China (talk) 18:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

point 10

You say this is a critical point of Crowley's system. Then why is it reduced to a footnote? In general, footnotes are expected to be sources, not explanations. Please find a way to integrate what you think is important about this into the article text. Footnote it with the source, not further explanation. I just don't see what's so important about this myself or even see precisely what the actual point of your footnote is. So you can't possibly expect me to integrate the point myself, I don't get it. Neither will other readers. Have I made my reason clear? Can you find another way to integrate your important and critical point? I'm not deleting this to be stubborn. I'm deleting it because it is bad writing to do it this way... 88.191.50.87 (talk) 13:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Much better way of making this point. There is no need to use words like "purport" or "claim", see words to avoid. "Wrote", "stated" or "said" are much better. Now that I see what your point is, I think I've found a much better quote to illustrate it in Liber Aleph. What do you think? Will in China (talk) 04:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Um, clearly you missed the point, because the new quote does not mention the Law of Thelema. Dan (talk) 05:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, you've got me then. First, I don't see how the astral plane is such a major part of Thelema that it even has to be mentioned here, rather than in Magick or Thelemic mysticism. And the problem with the quote you are using is that it simply doesn't have enough context to be understandable by anyone not already familiar with Crowley. In particular, "These mirror-images" has no context, so what the statement is actually saying about the Law of Thelema remains completely obscure to the average reader. That's why I took the quote out in the first place. It's clear that the astral plane is quite significant to magick, it's not clear from the quote just how it is significant to Thelema. I'd say we either have to stop trying to relate Thelema and the astral plane, or pick some other topic that he writes about in the "Light of Thelema" for which a clear and easy to understand quote exists. Or you could point out that the whole of Liber Aleph is a comment on the Thelemic way. Will in China (talk) 14:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought I put it in a footnote with a clear explanation in the text (clear enough because it comes after Skepticism, though I guess we should link astral plane or Astral_plane#The_astral_plane_and_astral_experience.) I don't understand your position here. Dan (talk) 18:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The section tries to explain how Magick relates to Thelema, the quote gives an explicit example of this, I tried to explain it clearly, what's the problem? Dan (talk) 18:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, go ahead and put it back your way if you must. Let's wait and see that the GA reviewer thinks of it and respond accordingly. Will in China (talk) 00:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

point 14

Dan says: "weren't you just telling us somewhere that Wikipedia does not interpret scripture? And yet here you are doing it, giving a disputed interpretation as fact. (Are you noticing a theme here?) Would you prefer we added, "in the view of one guy"?"

Response: there's a subtlety here that you are missing. You are correct that as Wikipedia editors we can not personally attempt to interpret scripture. But we can certainly report what other people have written about it. And no, it would not be approprate to add "in the view of one guy". The correct way to proceed would be to cite another source which differs on the topic. Nobody I think would disagree that Crowley spoke a about non-interference. But does anybody say that some specific verse in Liber AL dictates non-interference. That's the question here. If you come up with another POV, then we can determine how to word the some people think this, some people think that. But without the example, how would you suggest we proceed. We can't misreport what the source says simply because you dispute his interpretation. Will in China (talk) 18:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, again, Crowley gives this interpretation in Liber II. Dan (talk) 21:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

We need third party sources. The article already mentions Crowley's interpolations under the Duty section as well. Will in China (talk) 22:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

point 15

I think I see what you mean about the word both. I've rephrased again without it. Nowhere does the section say that the practices listed were or are required of everyone or that they were or are taught to everyone. It is simply a list of the types of magick and other ritual put forth by Crowley as parts of his system, which you call Thelema. I personally distinguish between Thelema and magick, with the latter unnecessary to the former, but as that is clearly not the majority view I feel no need to cause even more of a dispute over that particular detail. Will in China (talk) 18:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

point 16

Here I must disagree. This is a significant statement by Crowley, and that is what this section is about - Crowley's definitions of Thelema, not Contemporary Thelema. If you want to balance it under the heading of Contemporary Thelema by indicating that this one of Crowley's opinions about True Will has been discarded by specific groups of Modern Thelemites (with citations of course), then that would be the proper way of handling it. I'm not aware of any Thelemites objecting to his opinion in writing during Crowley's lifetime, are you? -Will in China 05:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

In case you aren't aware, it is not the purpose of Wikipedia to present Thelema in the most palatable light to attract followers, which seems to be part of your agenda. It is the purpose of Wikipedia to be historically accurate and complete. This is not a fact about Crowley's definitions and opinions to be swept under the rug. It is a significant fact potentially affecting around half of his potential followers during his life... -Will in China 05:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.244.27.53 (talk)

And it should be in the Aleister Crowley article, as indeed it is. Dan (talk) 21:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And it should be here, under True Will, unless you suggest removing that section. Will in China (talk) 22:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you want to copy the whole Sexism subsection from Aleister Crowley#Controversy? Because you don't get to add one side. Tell you what. If you can show that anyone even during Crowley's lifetime treated this as part of Thelema -- say, by reserving the title of Magister Templi for men, or requiring women to have children -- then you can leave it in the article Thelema. Dan (talk) 18:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

This isn't about sexism, it's about True Will. I just read through the material there, and none of it addressed the issue of True Will. True Will is a central element of Thelema, is it not? I'm not trying to make him out to be sexist, I am trying to give an important element of what he said about True Will. If you have any addition quotes specifically about what Crowley said about women and their True Will that mitigates the specific points, by all means add it. And/or add a (See [[Aleister Crowley#Sexism). While the material there is not specific enough to address the point, there is no reason not to refer the reader to it. Will in China (talk) 00:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me we have to decide whether to treat the sexists remarks as AC's personal opinion (assuming he believed them) or as an important part of Thelema. And it seems clear that even he didn't take the latter view. He didn't order female students to have children. Indeed, he condemned and removed from office one Smith of Agape lodge on suspicion of ordering women to sleep with him. "What greater violation of the Law of Thelema can one imagine?" AC didn't seem to heed any of his own sexist remarks in his official capacity as a teacher. And I certainly don't think anyone else ever did. So let's keep the discussion at the article for the man. Dan (talk) 05:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't agree with you, Dan. Crowley never ordered anyone to do what he (Crowley) thought was their True Will. Ordering women to sleep with one is a completely different issue specifically covered by the Book of the Law (violates "take your fill of love ... with whom ye will"). Stopping people from having non-consensual sex in no way implies that he thought the woman in question should not have children. I'm open for some mitigating material specifically about women and True Will, either from Crowley or from third-party biographical sources. Will in China (talk) 15:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've updated the reference to make it clear that this isn't simply some passing sexist comment in Confessions. This is from the New Commentary on the Book of the Law... Will in China (talk) 15:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course he ordered people to follow what he saw as their true will. He did this all the time. See Victor Neuberg, for example. And of course only one Comment is official in AC's eyes.

The article is long, this would make it even longer if we followed NPOV, it doesn't seem to belong in the article, I'm taking it out. Dan (talk) 22:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Should I explain the reference? Neuburg had a ten-day magical retirement early in his time with Crowley. The latter made "brutal" attacks that he (as I interpret Sutin) saw or made himself see as necessary to help Neuburg achieve his True Will. The student almost broke his vow of obedience as a result. Then afterward, "Crowley surprised Neuburg by insisting on a still further ten days of physical discipline -- sleeping naked on the cold floor of his room on a litter of gorse that Neuburg was sent off to cut for himself." Yet he never gave female students any orders about having children, not even general orders that one might expect from a (honest, not clearly abusive) Catholic priest. Dan (talk) 03:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Please try to stick to the point. This isn't about Crowley ordering anyone to do anything. That's a red herring. And your contention that giving a direct quote from a primary source (Crowley) without any attempt to interpret it is POV is a straw man. Now, if I gave a third party view, you would be completely right that another balancing third-party view would have to be added if it existed. But this is simply a quote from a primary source. I don't say that this makes Crowley sexist, so there is nothing to rebut. Will in China (talk) 15:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

There is plenty of mitigating material from the Extenuation which makes it clear that women and men are identical in the respect that each is a star and that each has a true Will. What your quote does not reflect is that the reason he saw bearing children as a part of woman's true Will is that it is a function of her body. This is a fact of nature and not a reflection of sexism, though I don't mean to suggest he was not sexist of course. He was. But the question of his sexism as is explicitly invoked here seems out of place in this article, nor does this quote provide evidence of sexism. Thiebes (talk) 00:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me see if I understand you. I think you agree with me that the quote does not imply sexism, and therefore does not need the see also or any other form of rebuttal (or NPOV as Dan calls it). I take your both of your other points. Could you suggest sources for both so they could be included. I agree that the article would be more balance with both language and citation about as you say "women and men are identical in the respect ... [of] True Will" and "that the reason he saw bearing children as a part of woman's true Will is that it is a function of her body". I would love to integrate both of those points into the section on True Will. Will in China (talk) 01:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Point 18

I removed the long quote from Antecedents simply because it is completely incomprehensible. And because you are attempting to interpret it, which is not allowed under WP:OR. It's way too long and breaks up the flow of the article. If you want to find a way to put it in a footnote, without attempting to interpret it or even implying that it is intended as "humour", go ahead. We both know that Crowley could also write like this with complete seriousness. But I think your point is actually your forbidden interpretation of the text and the quote is simply an excuse to add your point. If some published commentator has made your same point about this particular quote, by all means add it, but in some way that doesn't completely distract from the presentation of the article. If you prefer, we could compromise by removing the bit about Crowley calling Rabelais "Our Master". However, I think he said that in all seriousness, regardless of whether any other part of the article is humor. You are trying to say that the use of "Our Master" is humor. Maybe we should also note that Crowley made Rabelais a Saint of his Gnostic Church for further balance. 80.141.112.117 (talk) 14:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

These numbers refer to new points, not edits or my direct responses to them.

1. People have indeed made the point, as you can plainly see.

2. The use of Antecedents and the Gnostic Saints list serves to imply that Crowley said he took "Do what thou wilt" from Rabelais. He does not say this, and says the opposite in many places, claiming to have taken it from the Book of the Law (which, however, many believe refers to Rabelais.) And this comes from a reliable biography: Lawrence Sutin quotes private diaries that fit this story, and writes that "if ever Crowley uttered the truth of his relation to the Book," his public account accurately describes what he remembered on this point.

3. You prove my point with this bit about the Gnostic Saints. We should not try to draft them into a religion they did not know about, nor should we exaggerate the connection. Nor, again, should the article take anything Crowley ever wrote at face value! Read that quote from Sutin again. He added the qualification for a reason. I should not have to tell you this when it comes to a list of saints that includes Pan, Osiris, Hermes and Melchizedek.

4. The quote in the article seems necessary because you and Ekajati (quite recently) insist on starting or preceding the discussion of AC's work with an assertion about Rabelais, and indeed misrepresenting what AC says on the subject. Putting the text of the quote in the article seems like the best way to show what it means without going beyond sourced interpretation, though I suppose we could add a quote from Sutin saying that AC claims Rabelais foresaw Thelema. Dan (talk) 18:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

You wrote: "Putting the text of the quote in the article seems like the best way to show what it means without going beyond sourced interpretation, though I suppose we could add a quote from Sutin saying that AC claims Rabelais foresaw Thelema."

My response: yes, we be should using third-party sources here. I'd much prefer a short and clear quote from Sutin over a long and ambiguous quote from Crowley, since the possibility that one paragraph is intended to be humorous in no way implies that any other paragraph in the same essay is also so intended. Will in China (talk) 19:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Point 19

Thelema here is not a reference to a Rabelasian philosophy. It's a reference to the Abbey, country and utopia. Thelema is the English translation of Thélème. Two points here, we should use the English translation in the heading on English Wikipedia, and because there are actually three referents making it more specific doesn't really work for me. Would your prefer "Thelema of Rabalais" or "Rabelais' Thélème". Somehow I think you will continue to not get the point. And I'm not reverting to Ekajati's version, which was "Rabalaisian Thelema". I changed it because you convinced me there was no such thing. And now you criticize my correction. There's no pleasing you apparently. 68.144.168.46 (talk) 14:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Because it plainly does not solve the problem. If you want to add unnecessary words, we could say Rabelais' Abbey of Thélème, or even Abbey of Thelema if you have some strange attachment to the Latin alphabet transliteration of the Greek. Both remove the disputed implication. Dan (talk) 18:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe this has been resolved by using Rabelais' Thélème. Will in China (talk) 19:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Point 21

I don't see what the problem is. Do you dispute that Crowley developed a system around the ideal of "Do what thou wilt"? Do you really think using "championed" rather than "promoted" is really necessary? Try to be more clear about exactly what you think the problem is with my compromise attempt. Will in China (talk) 19:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was blindingly obvious; Crowley did it first, whatever you want to call it, and the article should either say so or stop suggesting otherwise. Dan (talk) 21:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And I thought it was blindingly obvious that Crowley was a plagiarist and made up a cockamamie story that only his followers take seriously. Will in China (talk) 22:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, Crowley's system of magick that he assembled around "Do what thou wilt" and the word Thelema was original. Neither the law itself nor the name, nor the idea of an Abbey of Thelema, which Crowley also cribbed from Rabelais, were original. Crowley did not do "Do what thou wilt" first. He developed a system of magick around a pre-existing concept. As a professed follower of the religion, you can hardly be objective about this. Do you view Crowley as a prophet? Will in China (talk) 22:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This seems irrelevant (aside from suggesting that you refuse to follow NPOV because of animus against Crowley's view). I thought we agreed that nobody openly self-identified as a Thelemite before Crowley and the Book of the Law. You said earlier that you agreed Rabelaisian Thelema in that sense did not verifiably exist. I'll try editing the introduction to show you what I mean, while adding the links you mentioned in their appropriate place. Dan (talk) 01:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

You are not understanding me. The ideal existed. It had been expressed by Rabelais and understood by Dashwood, but not yet elaborated into a formal system. An ideal by definition is not a realized thing. (See Plato). Crowley developed this already expressed ideal in a practical way. That is the sense in which I meant "developed". Perhaps you'd prefer reified? No, not quite right, is it? My writing is trying to be very precise here, but if you misread ideal you would indeed miss the mark and misunderstand what I am saying. Will in China (talk) 02:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion request

A Third opinion has been requested, but it appears from the signed posts that five or more editors are participating. How many are actually involved in this dispute? — Athaenara ✉ 23:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi. The IP addresses are a single user. I will start signing "Will in China" to avoid confusion. Thiebes doesn't seem to be really active in the discussion. It's just me and Dan trying to work out a compromise here. -Will in China 01:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.226.77.48 (talk)

And Stealthepiscopalian, at one time. And another user agreed with the summary at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/81.9.61.227. A second anonymous user who evidently does not use Tor also took part in the discussion here, but just as we cannot distinguish "Will" from User:Ekajati we do not know this other person's identity. Dan (talk) 02:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You mean your sockpuppets with 21 and 10 edits respectfully? They don't seem to be engaged in the discussion. But maybe you can fix that? Maybe they are about to chime right in? Or only once in a while, enough so you can claim third party isn't appropriate. You are both a liar and a loser. 70.16.81.96 (talk) 04:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The anonymous 70.16.81.96 user has been given a first level {{Uw-npa1}} warning (diff) after violations of the Civility and No personal attacks policies. — Athaenara ✉ 20:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Self-identification as a Thelemite before Crowley

Here is a self-identification as a Thelemite in 1841, before Crowley was born... Another interesting document using the term Thelemite from 1863 is this editorial, The Modern Thelemite. -Will in China 01:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Second seems to confirm the pejorative use. Dan (talk) 02:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and publishing a poem as "A. Thelemite" seems like the opposite of openly championing the rule of fay çe que vouldras. Dan (talk) 02:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

So you weren't sincere. Nice knowing you. Apparently you can twist anything to make it meaningless or so it agrees with you, even when it doesn't. -Will in China 04:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.16.81.96 (talk)

The anonymous 70.16.81.96 user has been given a first level {{Uw-npa1}} warning (diff) after violations of the Civility and No personal attacks policies. — Athaenara ✉ 20:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Nirvana

(Lost track here.) It took me a while to figure out what Will meant about the Liber II quote. Since the article goes on to speak of Buddhist and tantric traditions, and they do seem important here, why not just link nirvana so this reader you speak of can learn what the author meant? Dan (talk) 02:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure, add the second sentence with a link to nirvana. If we also leave the first sentence it gives a much clearer picture, don't you think? Will in China (talk) 00:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   There are some instances of mixing British and American punctuation; a specific style should be settled on and stuck with. Some of the prose is awkward in parts as well.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   One or two instances where sources need to be cited. Also, n.6 needs a notice of if the emphasis is original or by the editors.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   The editors might want to consider manipulating some of the images and infoboxes so as to reduce the amount of white space in the article.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   jackturner3 (talk) 14:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Diversity of Thelemic Thought section

I need to challenge and query some of the points asserted in the Diversity of Thelemic Thought Section:

1: Who decided that LaSara Firefox was a notable Thelemite exactly? And why? She hasnt published any material that could be seen has Thelemic and the church of the Allworlds is not a Thelemic organisation. Unless there can be a reliable citation that doesnt involve a crap pagan "encyclopedia" i put forward that the LaSara Firefox reference be removed.

2: Amado Crowley. Although this person has made claims that have failed to stand up to scrutiny, including Amado Crowley in the Diversity of Thought section should be queried/challenged has well. Amados "material" is threadbare and he hasnt produced any written work that would suggest "Thelemic Diversity". So i put forward that this is removed has well unless references other than the "Dave Evans fan-club" are forth coming.

3: "Thelemites who practice other religions". Some of the assertions in this bit has well are open to challenge. How could a Thelemite be a Satanist when Satanism is subject to inverting christian parameters exactly? And vice versa? This doesnt stand up to any deep examination. I would argue that if your a Thelemite there is no need for any religion since you are seeking True Will. Why need the distraction of a religion when Thelema covers all the bases? Again i put forward that the 4th paragraph in the Diversity of Thelemic thought section is removed since it just contradicts itself.--Redblossom (talk) 14:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

All of the items you bring up are referenced to sources which meet Wikipedia's requirements for source material. The article and its sources have been reviewed against the Good article criteria back in February and the article was passed to GA status. Of course, if there are alternate points of view which you would like to add that can be referenced to source material which meets Wikipedia requirements, by all means add it. Though I would suggest that discussion of the details of Amado Crowley's claim be documented in that article, following the standards for biographies of living people. I'm not sure what you mean to imply by refering to the "Dave Evans fan-club". Dr. David Evans has a Ph.D. in the field and is certainly a qualified source for information on Thelema. This is an encyclopedia, not an OTO promo page. Will in China (talk) 21:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

If that is the case Will in china then the good article criteria is not sufficient or its being abused to the point of laziness. Again i raise the point over the LaSara Firefox assertion. This person hasnt published any Thelemic material. The organisation that she is associated with is not Thelemic in nature. And the reference used hasnt published which page or the context of saying she is "Thelemic". That single reference is very dubious unless it can be verified through a secondary source. So i still put forwrd the motion that the firefox citation is removed until there is clarity on it. The second point over "Amado Crowley" still stands. He is not a prominent Thelemite in the eyes of Thelemites due to his fabrications over his fake "history" of Crowley. If he is going to be used in the article it should be has him making claims about himself and Crowley that cant be verified. But he shouldnt be listed has a "prominent Thelemite" and he shouldnt be used in the diversity of Thelemic thought since the material he uses is very contradictory and is at times nonsensical. If you are a Thelemite who knows his history Will in china, you should know this already. So i dont understand why your defending his inclusion in the diversity of Thelemic thought. With regard to Dave Evans yes he does have a PHD but his material is "clouded" by his personal tastes and he has been very negative to Crowley and certain Thelemites in his writing raising issue over neutrality over his work. Again if you are a Thelemite you should know this already Will in china. (Alas its the same with all historians with an axe to grind). Also Evans is not in a postion to decide whether or not "Amado Crowleys" work is "Thelemic" in any way since Evans is an academic and not a practicing Thelemite, and "Amado" himself hasnt given a very good account of himself when challenged over this his work. So using Evans work to justify "Amado" has a form of Thelemic diversity doesnt stand up to query or scrutiny. Again he may be "qualified" in academia but but not in Thelemic matters.

So to summmarise i put forward to the Wikiproject Thelema members that the LaSara Firefox reference is removed until a better reference is used or the context of the reference is elaborated further ( if it actually exists in the context it is being used here). That the mentions of "Amado Crowley" be moved elsewhere in the Thelema article under claims of legitimacy but not under Thelemic diversity. And that the "Thelemites who practice other religions" be removed since thats just contradiction. If a person has a fair grasp behind Thelema then the idea that they need another "religion" is just ludicrous and not well thought out. I look forward to the Wikiproject Thelema members cleaning this up.--Redblossom (talk) 18:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem, my good man (or woman), is that a religion is define by its followers and evolves over time. It is a sociological phenomemon, not something defined by an orthodoxy. People are starting to observe and study Thelema as implemented in the real world by people who self-identify as Thelemites. I personally know many, many Thelemites who also identify as also practicing other religions, primarily Buddhism and Hinduism. This is the reality "on the ground", despite how you personally would like to define Thelema. Wikipedia policy on breadth and NPOV require the inclusion of these variants. They appear to me to be given the proper amount of coverage and in the proper position at the end of the article. This is not an article about what Thelema "should be" according to you or any other "authority". Crowley is not the whole of Thelema and no longer defines it. Will in China (talk) 12:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not asserting what Thelema "should" be. I am challenging the inclusion of some points that are dubious at best. LaSara Firefox hasnt published any Thelemic material. The organsiation she is with is not Thelemic in nature. So why her inclusion has a prominent Thelemite? It just comes across has an advertisement for her and her organsiation. (the same applies to the Sam Webster inclusion has a prominent Thelemite) The inclusion comes across has nonsensical.

Secondly the Amado Crowley assertion still stands. It's dubious at best that his career should be seen has an expression has Thelemic diversity when he has made negative claims against the Liber AL, and other prominent Thelemites. So again this needs to be decided upon collectively to be moved under a sub section of maybe legitimacy claims but not an example of Thelemic diversity.

Thirdly, again i dont see the point or the need for a section expressing a dubious assertion that some self proclaimed "Thelemites" follow other religions. This is a contradiction in the basic ideas expresed in Liber AL that casts aside mainstream relgion (pecking out the eyes of... and tearing away the flesh of... anyone?!) to follow a personal path beyond the constraints of any organisation that restricts personal will. So again i put forward the motion that that paragraph be removed, and replaced with something else entirely different showing the obvious differences between the ideas & freedom behind Thelema and the constraints apparent in religions. This would help to clarify the confusion and contradiction presented has some sort of "fact" in the article. Can we have a decision and some consensus on this WikiProject Thelema members?--Redblossom (talk) 13:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Um, that's not how Wikipedia works. A "consensus" of WikiProject members should not be removing valid cited material. That would damage the neutrality of the article and emphasize a single POV which happens to be yours. If you can find citable opposing opinions, those could be added to the information already present. Will in China (talk) 14:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

If we go by the criteria that you are suggesting Will in China then any person who says that they are a Thelemite (but are not) and its in print somewhere can by default be listed here on Wikipedia has a Thelemite. Do you see how daft that is? Secondly how is the LaSara Firefox assertion "vaild cited material"? And how would moving the Amado Crowley from the Thlemic diversity section to elsewhere affect neutrality of the article? Just has an observation there needs to be some criteria on who is a Thelemite under Wikipedia criteria. By my standards what consitiutes a "Thelemite" here would be laughed at in the real world (again the LaSara Firefox assertion being a point in case). I would like someone else from the Wikiproject Thelema group to look at my points to offer an alternative to Will in China's.--Redblossom (talk) 17:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

That is exactly the standard used by Wikipedia for religious affiliation, self-identification of religious tradition by the believer. It is not daft, it is the only reasonable way to know what religion an individual professes. It is not Wikipedia's place to determine whether their claim is correct or not, that would be original research. And by valid cited material, it means that it comes from the third-party source footnoted at the end of the sentence or paragraph. A third-party reported the self-identification in a chapter or entry on Thelema in the work cited. Check the reference yourself... The reference says that Firefox and others in the Church of All Worlds self-identify as Thelemites. Unless you have another third party reference which disputes this, I don't see why we should change the article. It accurately reports what the sources say about diverse views of Thelema. Will in China (talk) 20:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify what your suggesting there Will in china, is that Wikipedia is not an accurate source of information (Thelema), but is a collector of material (accurate/inaccurate) that has been printed/quoted about Thelema and is used to give a picture/idea of Thelema that is NOT accurate in the academic/historical/practical sense of the word. In that context, if any browser looks at the Thelema page they will get a general idea of Thelema but not an accurate one due to the limitations of Wikipedia's criteria and use of third party material that wouldnt stand up to scrutiny in a academic or historical environment. So Wikipedia doesnt "accurately report" on Thelema but uses/abuses printed material to present a "representation" of Thelema that may or may not be true/accurate, due to Wikipedias limitations and criteria. So even though the Thelema article might be GA standard on Wikipedia it is not an accurate or even decent portrayal of Thelema in the real world. This is the nature of the internet in that anyone can be an "expert" and pass of material that would be laughed at in the real world, but is seen has "fact" on Wikipedia. If it was up to me a lot of the article would be gutted and started from scratch, but alas it seems there are vested interests here who are seeking to make a name/career for themselves using Wikipedia. C'est La Vie!!--Redblossom (talk) 06:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I guess I just don't see it that way, RB. Most of the sources agree that the essence of Thelema is "Do what thou wilt." Not all Thelemites are Crowleyan Thelemites so what the Book of the Law says is not essential for them. Even "The Comment" says to destroy the book and not discuss it, so the step of ignoring what it says beyond "Do what thou wilt" seems entirely logical to me. Since there is not even agreement that Thelema is a religion, why would it be incompatible with being an adherent of another religion, if that be the individual's will? It seems to me that you are projecting your POV of what Thelema is or should be, and that's precisely what Wikipedia editors are not supposed to be basing Wikipedia articles on. Those who accept the law of "Do what thou wilt" are Thelemites, and the diverse ways in which they apply this law is the topic of this article. Will in China (talk) 04:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Will in China, being a Thelemite is a bit more than just "Do what thou wilt" and its simplistic to suggest so. And a fair bit of the Thelema article is simplistic has well.Various religions up to a point put the god/goddess's will first ahead of the follower. This is in contradiction to the ideas set out in LIber AL. So again i say that the article is portraying contradiction and falsehood has some sort of fact on Thelema. Like i said Wikipedia has its limitations and the article on Thelema displays that weakness. Can we have someone who actually knows what they are talking about concerning Thelema address the issues of some of the points i have made?--Redblossom (talk) 20:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Since it doesn't seem like you are either reading or understanding what I have written or even the article itself, I see no point in continuing the conversation. In point of fact, I know quite a bit about Thelema both in theory and practice, and the view you are expressing is considerably narrower than that of many Thelemites. Also when you imply that I am not someone who knows about Thelema, you are coming very close to making a personal attack which is not permitted on Wikipedia. Will in China (talk) 19:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to highlight another misinformed contradiction. When a Thelemite engages in their practice the main body of work is to find their "true will" We can all agree on that. So from that point of view, how does appeasement and surrendering of their will to a god or goddess of a religion fit the Thelemic requirement of finding true will? It doesnt. So the idea of people saying they are "Thelemite" but they make appeasements and surrender to deities doesnt meet the Thelemic model of finding and maintaining true will. It just a confusing contradiction that doesnt make any sense by Thelemic criteria. Whereas religion promotes the will of the said deity/god Thelema promotes the development of true will without corruption or interference. So can someone explain to me the contradiction of the Wikipedia article allowing this confusion of so called "Thelemites" saying that they engage in the practice of religions? To me its just confused people wanting to have their cake and eat it, without any thought or genuine understanding. Doesnt make any sense.--Redblossom (talk) 20:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, no. I don't believe there is general agreement among Thelemites about True Will. That was a doctrine or dogma of Crowley's which is not mentioned in the Book of the Law. The book itself speaks of pure will and processes of purification of will, but Crowley's interpretation is only one way of understanding it. Both pre- and post-Crowlian Thelemites may not use Crowley's idiosyncratic approach. You also seem to be confusing Buddhism, Hinduism and other traditions with Christianity. It is simply not the case that deity yoga need involve "appeasements and surrender". That you think it does simply indicates that you have not looked into the matter very deeply and are projecting your superficial view onto a rather more complex spiritual world of which you remain unaware. Will in China (talk) 04:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually i am not making the mistake of putting Hinduism, Buddhism, and other religions with Christianity. Most religions make appeasements and observations to their specific deity (Green Tara/Buddhism, Shiva in Hinduism, ext) Most religions make appeasement and appreciations to their specific deities. Thelemas purpose of finding individual true will contradicts the view of deity based religions. So again it is a contradcition. How can true will be found if the follower of religion accepts that their existence is merely the will of said god/deity? Again the contradiction.--Redblossom (talk) 11:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, give me a break. First, you completely ignored the fact that not all Thelemites accept Crowley's doctrine of True Will. Second, what about Liber Astarte where Crowley specifically recommends and gives instructions on how to approach, worship and become a diety? Your choice of Green Tara is also fascinating, because Tibetan Buddhism is not a religion, Tara is not a "god" in the sense you are using, and advanced practices involve the practitioner self-visualizing as the deity and essentially worshiping themselves in the form of the deity. The practices of Tibetan Buddhism strongly resemble westerm magical practices, albeit with an eastern aspect. Finally, The Book of the Law itself speaks of making sacrifices of cattle to Horus, an ancient Egyptian god. Take off your blinders, man! Will in China (talk) 12:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_%28Buddhism%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Buddhism

The wiki articles above dont back you up on that point. Liber Astarte has got nothing to do with making appeasements to deity /gods.Liber Astarte is a training technique to move beyond human consciousness & to identify with the starting point of creation. If you have studied it then you would realise that, so how that correlates with the argument made about the contradictions stated by the poster hasnt been argued.Also your use of the Liber AL quote is also being taken out of context of its original useage (which is a common problem of Liber AL) to fit your contradictory argument, so again your point is flawed and weak. Again this is the weakness of anyone posting on Wikipedia, in that poor argument and a lack of understanding can be passed off has some sort of "fact". And anyone can be an expert. I back up the original posters point that the article does need a clean up, starting with the religion points.

Your three points

I am a former member of the Thelema WikiProject, and you have requested that someone else comment on your three points:

• Who decided that LaSara Firefox was a notable Thelemite exactly? And why? She hasnt published any material that could be seen has Thelemic and the church of the Allworlds is not a Thelemic organisation. Unless there can be a reliable citation that doesnt involve a crap pagan "encyclopedia" i put forward that the LaSara Firefox reference be removed.
  • It doesn't matter who put her in the article. She's here now, and theres a citation which supports her inclusion. She doesn't need to publish any "thelemic" material to self identify as a thelemite. The article is neither promoting, nor lifting her to a state of prominence. If you are a notable person, (no matter how much you might be disliked) and identify as ____ (fill in the blank), and have been subject to publication, you are worthy of at least being mentioned in any article that is topic appropriate. Now I would be really worried if she was mentioned as a "prominent" Thelemite. But the article just isn't giving me this impression when I read it.

• Amado Crowley. Although this person has made claims that have failed to stand up to scrutiny, including Amado Crowley in the Diversity of Thought section should be queried/challenged has well. Amados "material" is threadbare and he hasnt produced any written work that would suggest "Thelemic Diversity". So i put forward that this is removed has well unless references other than the "Dave Evans fan-club" are forth coming.
  • I hate this guy. He's a fake, and has been discredited many times. But so what? This article isn't saying anything other than his belief that Crowley's system is "only one possible manifestation of Thelema". Thats it. :/ And the statement is also backed by a source (albeit, not the best source, but the claim is nothing thats going to keep me awake at night, wondering just how many manifestations of Thelema there might be!). He is tied to Thelema through his lies, and no one can stop that now. Just like LaSara, he merits being mentioned.

• "Thelemites who practice other religions". Some of the assertions in this bit has well are open to challenge. How could a Thelemite be a Satanist when Satanism is subject to inverting christian parameters exactly? And vice versa? This doesnt stand up to any deep examination. I would argue that if your a Thelemite there is no need for any religion since you are seeking True Will. Why need the distraction of a religion when Thelema covers all the bases? Again i put forward that the 4th paragraph in the Diversity of Thelemic thought section is removed since it just contradicts itself.
  • It doesn't really matter how or why they choose to practice both Thelema and Satanism, or Thelema and any other religion/ceremonial magic. Much like Chaos magic, its up to them to figure out those details, not us. As thelemites, we do not get to assert our own opinions into these articles and there is no contradiction since these are only claims that are backed up by sources.

SynergeticMaggot (talk) 11:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I will ask you the same thing that i asked in my posts. If a person says that they are a Thelemite but they follow a religion that makes appeasements to deities of said religion , how is that Thelemic? How is the person fulfilling the criteria of being in a state of true will when they are putting the will of the said deity ahead of their own individual will? I assert that they are not. Therefore they are not being Thelemic. Again this is contradiction that is presenting a misleading representation of Thelema on the part of the article i am focusing on. The subsection in question needs cleaned up edited to deal with this contradiction. Like i said earlier Wikipedia does have its limitations and the diversity sub section shows this off cruelly. To me this argument of using citations & references for people who merely call themselves Thelemic is making the Thelema article look dubious at best. If we go by the criteria for Wikipedia if someone can get a citation stating that George W Bush said he is a "Thelemite" then under Wikipedia criteria lo and behold he is a Thelemite!! See how ludicrous that is? If this is supposed to be a GA article under Wikipedia criteria then the criteria is laughable and sub standard.--Redblossom (talk) 11:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thats very simple. Crowley once said (and I'm quoting this directly from Jpgordon's comment from Talk:Aleister Crowley):

• We place no reliance/On virgin or pigeon/Our Method is Science/Our Aim is Religion -- Crowley.

It doesn't matter if she is or isn't true to her path. We can argue all day that a handful of priests that commit sin everyday are not following Christianity to a "t", but that still doesn't take them out of the equation. She self identifies with Thelema. The article does not mention her true will, or her true intentions. So thats not really up for debate. And if you wish to dispute the GA status, maybe you should bring it up with them. Remain impartial. This article is for the average reader, and let me remind you that the average reader is not a Thelemite. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 12:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

And by the way, if Bush said he was a Thelemite, lets say, on TV, we can of course include it. Nevermind that we can't be sure. We would word it "President Bush has claimed (for instance) in an interview with Meet the Press that he practices Thelema". This would be true of course, and worded in such a way as to remain neutral. This article does just that for LaSara. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 12:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)