Talk:Francisco Franco

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Soviet involvment

Nazi, Italian and Portugese involvement is highlited in the Military command section, but the Soviet contribution, which was amongst the largest (as is detailed in the specific article about the war and foreign involvment) is not mentionned.

It says that before the great war in 1940 if im correct the great war is WW1

Intro names and titles

His full name was Francisco Franco Bahamonde. That's it. That's what appears in all legal documents and that is how he was referred to by everybody. Never in his life did he use any other names. The rest of the Christian names *may* appear in his baptism but have no legal validity and were never used. Consult all legal documents, press citations, etc. and what you see is Francisco Franco Bahamonde and, therefore, that is what his name was for all intents and purposes. Not his abbreviated name but his full name. Any references to other ancestral family names or christian names should be relegated to a footnote as they are of little interest or relevancy. Citing it like it is now just serves to foster the mistaken stereotype that Spanish people use really long (many) names.

During his rule he was called as "El Caudillo de la Última Cruzada y de la Hispanidad, El Caudillo de la Guerra de Liberación contra el Comunismo y sus Cómplices" -- He was called this by who? This is nonsense and it ought to be removed. (alf - Madrid)

Legión Extranjera

This unit was founded in 1920 with the name "Tercio de Extranjeros" but it was informally called "La Legión" or "La Legión Extranjera" because it was founded and modelled after the French Foreign Legion.

In 1925 the name was oficially shortened to el "Tercio" and in 1937 to la "Legión".

The sentence in the second paragraph of the article is incorrect: "The coup failed and evolved into the Spanish Civil War during which he emerged as the leader of the Nationalists against the Communist government." The Republican government, espcially at the time of the coup, was not "Communist". To say it was indicates the article's author is trying to justify Franco's attack on the democratically elected government. See The Battle for Spain by Anthony Beevor.

Obscure wording

"The Legion symbolically, if not materially, saved the Spanish enclave of Melilla": what can this possibly mean? - Jmabel | Talk 06:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The Disaster of Annual had collapsed the Army group which defended Melilla, and it was thought that the city, totally demoralized, was ripe to fall in the hands of Abd el Krim and his troops. The arrival of Franco's column (IIRC, June, 28th) and its three day march to position, seems to have been the key event which triggered the moral recovery of the city (and of its remaining military commanders) and allowed the reorganization of the defense positions. So, at least was how it was seen by contemporaneous accounts, and was the passport to Franco's entry in the Military Hall of Fame of that times.

It's hard to believe that only this move saved the city, but so it went into the public opinion, long before he became Chief of State. Thus the wording on the article. Wllacer 09:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

How about "Franco's Legion forces executed a gruelling three-day forced march to the Spanish enclave of Melilla. Their arrival restored morale there, and was credited at the time with saving the city"? - Jmabel | Talk 05:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Dictator, dictatorship

I am quite surprised to see that the word 'dictator', or 'dictatorship' seems to have been eluded, at least referring to Franco and his regimen. The only two times that 'dictator' is used, it refers to Hitler and Mussolini.

If you read List of dictators you read that Franco is 'often referred to as a dictator or caudillo', but it is not said that he was indeed a dictator. I think that Franco being a dictator is not under discussion.

Is there any reason for Franco not being referred as dictator in Wikipedia? Or have I misunderstood the terms?

It could be a terminological prevention. The term Dictadura (without qualifiers) in Spanish history has always been understood as Miguel Primo de Rivera's rule(1923-1930). And there is another factor. The term "Dictator" has been -in regards to Franco- so abused, that its usage is to be avoided if one wants to keep a NPOV. This done, i think it's evident he was one (he wasn't a ruler neither by right of birth nor of election)Wllacer 23:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand you. However, "Dictador", as in any other language of the latin branch, refers to the control of the state by one leader, usually from the military. In Spain at least 3 people have been called "Dictadores": Espartero, Primo de Rivera, and, of course, Franco. It is an statement you will hear even from his most persuaded worshippers.

Wllacer, I disagree. I am a Spaniard myself, and the term 'dictadura' (without qualifiers) is most often understood as a reference to Franco's regime (which lasted longer and is closer in tme). The phrase 'la dictadura de Franco' is very common. I don't think defining Franco as a dictator implies a NPOV problem. Dictator, according to the Oxford English dictionary, 'dictator' is:

1 a ruler who has complete power over a country, especially one who has gained it using military force

2 a person who behaves as if they have complete power over other people, and tells them what to do

and according to Webster's English dictionary:

1 a : a person granted absolute emergency power; especially : one appointed by the senate of ancient Rome b : one holding complete autocratic control c : one ruling absolutely and often oppressively

2 : one that dictates

If according to these neutral, objective definitions, Franco is not a dictator, I don't what is!

A belated answer: I confess not to use the term Dictator in regards to Franco is rather a protective measure. Objectively there is no question. Being etymologically pedant he was more a tyrant -in the greek sense- rather than a Dictator -in the roman one-. But the current usage of both words is unavoidabily linked with a derogatory sense.

If you had spent your youth devouring antifrancoist (by then forbidden) propaganda (as was my case) the appearance of the terms Dictator or Fascism without qualifiers or clear context more than twice in an article about Franco and his Regime (same with the words Alzamiento and Caudillo), would ring all the alarms about the objectivity of the writer.

IIRC Espartero was never a dictator, although his way to the Regency was not exactly "by the books". But that is so common in contemporaneous spanish history that is hardly news ... --Wllacer 11:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The controversy continues

Am including a small reference, plus link to the BBC original, to the following news item:

Franco guaranteed the maintenance of traditional values in Europe and we lack such statesmen today

Maciej Giertych, MEP, said: "Thanks to the Spanish army and Franco the communist attack on Catholic Spain was thwarted. The presence of such people in European politics as Franco guaranteed the maintenance of traditional values in Europe and we lack such statesmen today. Christian Europe is losing against atheistic socialists today and this has to change."

---

If he said that he knew nothing. It was the catholic church who has always attacked the people. The reaction of the people was just the natural consequence against the system. Anyway these words are just the fruit of his ignorance, they have no relevance for the article; it's just political propaganda.

Onofre Bouvila 04:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Not unlike you own words sir. As if terms like "the people" actual refer to anything even remotely meaningful. Take a look at what you mean by "the people" and you will see an amorphous group ranging from the most destitute to the unbelievably wealthy, from the moronic to humans of genus. Believing that such a group as "the people" can have anything in common with one another aside from their humanity is in itself ignorance. It is people like yourself sir, wording mindless platitudes such as "the people" to further who are attempting to further their own political ends. Perhaps you should be more clear for example instead of "the people" you could say non-catholics, socialists, communists, etc. Lets be clear, the counter-revolution of Franco, like all successful counter-revolutions, would never have succeeded if many of "the people" you claim rose up in mass against "the system" (a another absurd meaningless term) were not in supporters of the Second Republic.

The statement of Maciej Giertych speaks to a belief held by some in Spain and the rest of Europe. It also sheds light on why many argue the legacy of Franco. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.146.48.104 (talk • contribs) 18 December 2006.

The above-mentioned paragraph didn't mention Giertych by name, but somehow I knew right away that it was him. I just want to emphasize that the guy is an extremist nutjob, and his party has about a 3% approval rating in Poland as I write this. The paragraph, as it currently stands, implies that admiration for Fascism is widespread, which is not the case. --24.58.14.1 03:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Ferrol: contradiction

This article says "between 1938 and 1969 his hometown would be known officially as El Ferrol del Caudillo". Ferrol, A Coruña says "…was officially known as El Ferrol del Caudillo from 1938 to 1982." One of these is wrong. Neither is cited. - Jmabel | Talk 02:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Wayback to the rescue. --Error 16:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! By the way, its proper name is the Internet Archive. - Jmabel | Talk

López Ochoa

There is a request for a citation about López Ochoa's head being cut off & stuck on a pole in '36. I haven't readily found anything citable, but I have no reason to doubt [1]. It may be suggestive of research directions for anyone who wants to follow this up. - Jmabel | Talk 03:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Cult of personality

The following was cut some time in the last few months:

Since Franco's death, almost all the placenames named after him (most Spanish towns had a calle del Generalísimo) have been changed. This holds particularly true in the regions ruled by parties heir to the Republican side, while in other regions of central Spain rulers have preferred not to change such placenames, arguing they would rather “not stir the past”. Most statues or monuments of him have also been removed; in the capital, Madrid, the last one standing was removed in March 2005.

It was vague and uncited, so I'm not restoring it, but if someone can write something solid on the topic, I think it would make a good addition to the article. - Jmabel | Talk 03:03, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

We need some text to anchor plaque images from Commons. --Error 16:42, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Rise to Power

I've rewritten the section Rise to Power. The entire section was vaguely cited to the French translation of Hugh Thomas's The Spanish Civil War; no page citations were given, and there was quite a bit in the section that is not citable to Thomas (and quite a bit relevant in Thomas that was not in the section). I've rewritten with clear citations. There are several claims relative to Mola that I am sure are nowhere in Thomas, but that seemed important enough that if they are citable from elsewhere should certainly remain; I've marked them with {{cn}}. If no one can cite for these, they should probably be removed.

In general, a lot of the rest of this article has similar problems, but I only felt like working on the one section right now. There would be a lot of fertile ground for anyone who wants to do similar work. - Jmabel | Talk 06:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed the reference to most people believing that Mola was assassinated, which, as far as I know, is not accurate. Perhaps he was killed, but that doesn't appear to be the belief of most historians. Aussiesta (talk) 13:50, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

About José Antonio Primo de rivera

In the section "rise to power" is quoted that JA Primo de Rivera was in prison in Madrid, but actually he was being held in a prison in Alicante. --Don severo 18:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm away from my books right now. If you are sure of that, feel free to change it. In any case, I'll look it up next week and cite for it. - Jmabel | Talk 16:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Unattributed opinion

From the article: "Because of the government's strong control of the economy, active government investment in private enterprise, and political ownership of the trade unions, Franco's Spanish State could be classified as "left" if it were not for Franco's distaste of Socialism and democracy." Oh, and his rampant and exclusive embrace of Catholicism, his friendly relations with Mussolini and Hitler, etc. But, above all, this opinion is attributed to no one. All it is is a rehash of the familiar fact that there are some resemblances between a basically fascist regime and state communism. And, actually, "active government investment in private enterprise" is not even something in common with state communism. In short, on the face of it this is superficial and misleading. It would make Imperial Japan "leftist", too. Unless this opinion can be attributed—and soon—it does not belong in the article. - Jmabel | Talk 16:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed the above mentioned statement. It's simply absurd and doesn't have a citation. This article's tone is till generally Franco-apologist. It, along with the Falange article, have been stripped of discussion of Spain's level of fascism.--Bkwillwm 01:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

That statement was indeed absolute nonsense. Franco's regime stood for the antithesis of a leftist ideology ('sindicatos verticales', repression against communism, radical defense of Catholicism and traditional family values...).

Blanco, Hitler and Mussolini

Just some small factual stuff, in the section Spain After Franco, it is said that Adm. Blanco was killed by a car bomb, but he wasn't, the ETA had instead placed a bomb in a tunnel underneath the car and exploded it as Blanco drove on the street above.

Also, in the section Relationship with Hitler and Mussolini, it says: "While Franco ruled undemocratically, he seems to have reluctantly accepted that Spain would be a democracy after his death." This isn't true at all, the only reason Franco worked with the western democracies was because Spain was in dire need of the supplies they could provide for Spain's weak economy, and later on, during the 50's and 60's, it was because Franco's advisors realized the need for Spain to take place in the burgeoning international economy. Franco was a devout enemy of democracy, and thought throughout his entire life that it would lead to anarchy or communism.-Black Mage- 16:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

He was not democratic, which is in fact why it say he "ruled undemocratically" and he "reluctantly accepted that Spain would be a democracy after his death". Franco certainly wanted ideally to set up a permanent authoritarian monarchy, but towards the end of his rule (in the 70s) he observed many stable capitalist states in western Europe and accepted, reluctantly, that Spain would be the same. N-edits 12:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the above. He did not accept that Spain would become a democracy - he worked hard to try and secure his authoritarian legacy.

In fact, one of Franco's most famous phrases during his later years was 'está todo atado y bien atado' (everything is well under control), in direct reference to the continuation of his regime after his death. 163.1.117.207 17:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the Law forced King Juan Carlos I to swear respect to the Movimiento's premises if he wanted to rule. "Juro guardar lealtad a los principios fundacionales del Movimiento Nacional". After his rise to power, the king erased this law.

Question about his name

His name is given in the article as, "Franco Bahamonde": but was the correct form not, "Franco y Bahamonde"?
Flonto 15:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC) Somebody really needs to come back here, delete the fallicies and make a Franco entry proper. Without the sympathetic 'whitewash' the fans of his that obviously made these entries created.

Major POV problem

This article's quality is crippled with POVed subtle messages that labels Franco as 'right-wing' and/or that fascism is a right-wing ideology. Although this may perhaps be a popular understanding, these are highly challengeable statements, and the kind usually used by the left to discredit the right. In fact, authoritarianism and anarchism are antipodes where anarchism (absolute freedom) represents the far right. Franco did not believe much in anarchism... --Childhood's End 18:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe you are right in this at all. In fact I think you are completely reversing the terms. I also personally believe that if the article is biased it is biased in favor of Franco and not against him.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 20:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Childhoodsend, it is important to note that Franco himself was not a fascist, nor was his regime. Franco certainly sympathised with fascism, but he lacked the ideological base that would define his regime as one. Defining Franco as a fascist would be incorrect. 'Extreme-right' is probaby more accurate in this case. 163.1.117.202 15:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a total misrepresentation and does not warrant an NPOV marker at all. By all accounts, anarchism is commonly classified as left wing (with the exception of so-called anarcho-capitalists, which are rejected by most anarchists) Historically, anarchists have often identified themselves as "libertarian socialists". And there cannot be a serious dispute about whether or not Franco's government is labeled "right-wing" on common political scales. It undoubtedly is. What else? --Johannes Rohr 03:54, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

As a point of information to find the meanings of words we look in a dictionary. The best and most comprehensive dictionary of the English language is the Oxford English Dictionary. It contains the following definition. Fascist - A person with right wing authoritarian views. Franco fits this definition. Neilj (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

If this is a definition of Fascism, ... what's the difference between Louis XIV of France, Alexander the Great and Hitler. Please, let's be serious --Wllacer (talk) 00:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

A more formal answer would be, this definition would encompass the governments of Horthy, Pildusky, Primo, Oliveria, Dollfuss, Mussolini, Hitler and Franco (speaking only of people of the 20's and 30's). Only a very infantil usage of the term Fascism would suit all of them. Look in the archives, here and in other relevant artices, the issue has been discussed more than onceWllacer (talk) 12:35, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Nixon's statement re Franco

The statement illustrating the diplomatic alliance between the USA and Franco's regime on the basis of a common anti-communist policy has been deleted from the article. The editor claims that the source (Saturday Night Live) is not legitimate. SNL actually recorded his statement on November 22 1975 and aired it, so there is no real alternative for a source I am afraid: SNL _is_ is in fact the source. If the problem arises from citing a TV program as a bibliographic entry, perhaps an external link could be added, pointing at the SNL web page where the statement was transcribed (http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75fupdate.phtml). 163.1.117.202 15:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Saturday Night Live is a comedy show. It is not an actual news report, and most of its "Weekend Update" coverage is fiction. Just looking at the transcript at the link used to cite the supposed Nixon quote shows several other, obviously fictional, stories from the same segment including:

"The top story tonight: The Senate Intelligence Committee has revealed that the CIA has been involved in no less than nine assassination plots against various foreign leaders. Commented President Ford upon reading the report, quote, 'Boy, I'm sure glad I'm not foreign.'"

and

"Ex-heavyweight champion Joe Louis, the Brown Bomber, proved he still has the fastest hands in the business by catching a live mortar round in mid-air."

The transcript describes screenshots used during the segment and no mention is made of a Nixon video. I also did a simple Google search of the supposed Nixon quote's text and found only mirror versions of this article and references to the SNL comedy skit. I'm deleting the quote because I can't find any evidence of this aside from SNL's skit. If you think this SNL transcript is valid source, I suggest that you add the fact that Joe Louis caught live mortar rounds to the Joe Louis article.

Even if the quote were real, I think it's being used in a POV manner. At the very least the wording "affirmed" should be removed since it implies that the quote reflects the truth rather than one person's opinion.--Bkwillwm 03:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Bkwillwm. I can assure the quote _IS_ real. It was reported by the New York Times. This is the reference: New York Times "Nixon Asserts Franco Won Respect for Spain". November 21, 1975, Friday. Page 16. The article contains Nixon's exact words (which are as quoted by SNL). I am substituting the SNL reference (which some people may have an issue with) with the NYT quote, which is pretty irrefutable.129.67.88.118 14:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for finding a valid reference for this quotation. I'm not sure it's the best place for it since it refers to Franco's death, and its placed in the middle of the narrative. I won't mess with the quote further though. If someone else feels like moving it, they can. I am changing the first part of the section though since the link takes you to a Nixon toast, not a eulogy.--Bkwillwm 03:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the quote is more relevant in its present location (as an illustration of the diplomatic alliance with USA) than it would be in the 'Franco's death' section. Spet1363 18:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Legitimacy of the 2nd Republic

The introduction mentions that one of the controversies surrounding Franco's regime is whether the 2nd Republic constituted a legitimate democracy. I am deleting this. There is no doubt about the democratic legitimacy of the 2nd Republic, insofar as the government had been legitimately elected. This is not open to argument. I am leaving the rest of the sentence (regarding extremism and anti-clerical violence), as that may have a more solid base. I have also deleted the suggestion that the 2nd Republic had become a communist regime. That is also out of question-- no communist regime has ever been in power in Spain. The most one could say is that the 2nd Republic had adopted an extreme-left position 163.1.117.207 17:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Tut tut. You come in here as an anonymous editor and make categoric statements and deletions of the work of others with no source materiéls to support your actions. The 2nd Republic, for instance, sent all of Spain's gold reserves to the Soviet Union, from whence they have never returned. The so-called "International Brigades" were co-ordinated by a Moscow-based organisation and consisted mostly of communists from numerous countries. Might I suggest you read The Revolt of the Masses by Jose Ortega y Gasset (English edition 1932), for starters. He was sometime a government minister and had much to say about the types of people attracted to the Republican cause in Spain. You might also get hold of a copy of Spanish Rehearsal by Sir Arnold Lunn (1937) which deals with the Civil War and its combatants, including details on the 2nd Republic's personnel. David Lauder 20:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Tut tut. How is that any indication that the government was communist? I am not expressing opinions, I am adhering to FACTS. The 2nd Republic 1. was decmocratically elected (there is little doubt about that), 2. was not a communist regime (there has never been a communist regime in Spain). As I said before, one could say the 2nd Republic adopted extremist positions and communist-sympathising policies, but that does not make the 2nd Republic communist. That is misleading and inaccurate, and needs to be addressed (regardless of personal creeds). By the way, I have read Ortega y Gasset's Revolt of the Masses (in Spanish, as I am a Spanish speaker). I found it a bit too reactionary and class-conscious for my taste. Anyway, back to the text, I have reverted the changes. I would be happy to reach consensus (e.g. by emphasising there was turmoil, religious violence, and assassinations). However, I would not be happy with leaving any suggestions that the 2nd Republic was a communist regime or that it was not a legitimately and democratically elected government, as that is simply inaccurate. 129.67.88.118 12:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Take a closer look at The Revolt of the Masses Ortega y Gasset was writing about the kinds of people that tend to support totalitarianism--both fascist and communist. He was not writing about the Second Republic. The Revolt of the Masses was published in Spain in 1930 and the Second Republic didn't even begin until the next year. Moreover, Ortega y Gasset was actually a member of the Second Republic: a member of parliament and civil governor of Madrid.--Bkwillwm 19:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Some statements seem to use Pio Moa's books as source. This writer has admitted to be biased, in the spanish media, and has been discredited by the Principal of "Real Academia de la Historia" [[2]]

Pio Moa has been supported by some english speaking reputed historians [3], therefore Pio Moa is a legit source. Please sign your comments. Thank you. Randroide (talk) 09:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Franco and WWII

Copied from WP:RD/H for processing. --Ghirla^-трёп- 22:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

It was at one time the accepted wisdom that Francisco Franco played a very close game, pro-Axis for security and apperance, but always managing to stay free of lavish commitments to Hitler. This view has largely been exploded by the work of Paul Preston, though it still manages to cling on, I see, in the page Spain in World War II.

The important point about Franco is that he was Fascist only in the most superficial sense, and would never have been moved by appeals to soldarity alone from his fellow dictators. He also was deeply resentful of German attempts to take advantage of the massive indebtedness of Spain for aid given to the Nationalists during the Civil War. What he was, though, was a good old-fashioned opportunist, one who did not want to be left on the wings in a German dominated Europe. Above all, as a former Legionnaire and an 'Africanista', he had ambitions to create a new Spanish Empire in Africa, largely at the expense of the French. Recognising that Spain was too exhausted economically to risk prolonged conflict, he was ready to enter the war, so to say, at one minute before midnight. This was the whole basis of his dealings with Hitler in 1940.

For Franco the decisive minute came in June 1940 with the fall of France. According to Ramon Serrano Suner, soon to be Foreign Minister, the Spanish government was swept by a wave of 'pro-war enthusiasm', deepened by Mussolini's entry into the conflict on 10 June. On 19 June Franco offered to enter the war in return for French Morocco, part of Algeria, and an expnsion of Spanish Sahara and Equatorial Guinea, along with substantial economic and military aid. Hitler refused to make any such commitment. Though he was angered by this rebuff, Franco's faith in a German victory did not diminish, and he was still ready to enter the war that autumn. By this time Hitler, checked by the Battle of Britain, was beginning to turn towards a wider 'Mediterranean strategy' in which the Spanish had a part to play. However, in the end, the price demanded by Franco was too high, and the risk of Spanish involvement to wider German strategic considerations too great.

The face to face meeting between Hitler and Franco at Hendaye in October 1940 failed for one simple reason: Spanish demands in Africa could only be granted at the risk of a major reaction in the French colonial empire. At Hendaye Franco was told that "the great problem to be solved at the moment consisted in hindering the de Gaulle movement in French Africa from further expansion, and therby establishing in this way bases for England and America on the African coast." In private conversation with Serrano Suner Franco gave vent to his anger;

These people are intolerable; they want us to enter the war in return for nothing; we cannot trust them if they do not contract, in what we sign, to cede as of now the territories which as explained to them are our right; otherwise we will not enter the war now...After the victory, contrary to what they say, if they do not commit themselves formally now, they will give us nothing.

Franco stayed out of the war not because he was cautious. It was rather more basic: his greed had been frustrated. Clio the Muse 00:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Terrible Article

This article is terrible, a biased apology for a bloody dictator.

• The lack of clearly defining Franco as a dictator, as mentioned by an earlier poster.

• The repeated, unsourced, justification of Franco's illegal coup of an elected government (under the heading "Nature of government overthrown by Franco"). The author is a blatant apologist. I would be interested to read the rational of the mentality which says: democracy is good, unless people elect someone too left-wing in which case it's fine to have a bloody coup and a dictator (ala Pinochet in Chile, backed by the CIA).

• The repeated mention of anti-clericalism without referring to the fact that the Catholic Church assisted and worked with fascists in Europe before, during, and after WWII.

• "The shooting of thousands of opponents during the civil war and in the early years after is a source of controversy". It's controversial because people in Spain are still finding their relatives buried in mass graves with bullet holes in the back of the skull. "a notable negative point on Franco's record" - makes it sound like he got a D- in math at school.

• "From early 1937, every death sentence had to be signed (or acknowledged) by Franco. However, this does not mean that he had intimate or complete knowledge of every official execution.". Oh, so that's ok then.

If this author were to write about Hitler, I'd imagine they'd write something like "Bit of a bad egg, but he was nice to children and animals."

This article needs to be totally rewritten, by someone who can be objective as possible, using proper sources and analysis.

87.185.195.178 09:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

You commie pig!!! Interested to read the rational of somebody too left-wing? In venezula right now Chavez has killed democracy. Don't worry though bad USA is not there to destroy it like it brillantly did in 1973 (which was a good thing against that other commie nut...Allende). Perhaps someone should question YOUR rational. I suggest some valium before you post things. This is just an article on Wikipedia. Nothing more

YankeeRoman(65.222.151.74 (talk) 16:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC))

what a loon

Uhh, this is practically a humorous article, lets review just the beginning of it, shall we?:

-"General Francisco Paulino Hermenegildo Teódulo Franco Bahamonde (4 December 1892 - November 20, [1] 1975), commonly abbreviated to Francisco Franco (pron. IPA: [fɾan'θisko 'fɾaŋko]) or Francisco Franco Bahamonde, and also known as Caudillo or Generalísimo". I specially LOVE the part in which they say the nicknames that the supporters of Franco used to call him, some people used and still calls him a dictator (no trace of that here). If we are at it, why dont we keep digging for those nicknames, im sure his mom called him something, maybe his girlfriend called him pookie, who knows.

-"was the leader and later formal head of state of Spain from October 1936, and of all of Spain from 1939 until his death in 1975.". Still the words "dictator" or "dictatorship" fail to arise, instead we are using the more neutral word "leader", which says as much as to say that Franco was a human being.

-"In February, 1936, the left-wing Popular Front won the general election and formed a government" no way!, thats what you do after you win an election??

-"Anti-clerical violence against the Church by left wing militants further raised tensions". Yes, because that wasnt in a great deal part of the right wing propaganda; causes of the war: they was killing priests!. Of course the rightist extremists were saints here (not killing priest might do the trick here)

-After the assassination of a major opposition figure, José Calvo Sotelo by a commando unit of the Assault Guards in July 1936, Franco participated in a coup d'etat against the legitimately elected Popular Front governmen No word about the death of Castillo?, the article has a fixation on making it all seem like no harm came from the right wing, because indeed, isnt the generalisimo the saviour of spain from the communist hordes? (the demonic priest killers!).

-"After winning the civil war, he dissolved the Spanish Parliament, establishing an authoritarian regime that lasted until 1978, when a new constitution was drafted" This horrible part of spanish history seems to be a huge "scene missing" here, Franco just happends to win the war just like that, no mention of the mayor atrocities commited by the nationalists (maybe because they didnt killed priests?, just a guess). His "authoritarian" (could that be a sight of the word dictatorship appearing somewhere?) rule didnt quite end in 1978, as Franco handpicked his succesor and continued to keep Spain under the same dictatorship (a brief succesor if we may add).

-"From 1947 and until his death he was de facto regent of Spain, which he ruled as a dictator, repressing dissident opinions through institutionalised torture, concentration camps (such as Los Merinales in Seville, San Marcos in León, Castuera [2] in Extremadura, and the Camp of Miranda de Ebro), heavy prison sentences, and the application of the death penalty against criminals and political opponents. After his death Spain began a transition to democracy. Pre-constitutional symbols from the Franco regime (such as the national flag with the Imperial Eagle) are banned by law" Wow, finnally a semi objective view, but its almost like if the whole "leftist" side of history was thrown all at once right in the end... because we all know how important is to place Franco's nicknames at the beginning, dont we?. The article continues with heavily polarized opinnions, yet no consensus whatsoever. Not since the Pinochet article has an article been so full of both liberal haters and conservative amateur-facists that just cant get along.

The only reason Franco has not been condemned as a horrible semi-human being, is because he fought communists (the ultimate evil that lives under your bed [AKA Cuba]). I demand a little bit of respect for my slain political sympathizers. I feel that I must also add, that a dictator is not an autocrat (one who rules alone with absolute power) A dictator is only someone who has absolute power. This means that, although he has advisers, he could say any day that he wants- "kill this man," and it would be done. If we wish to go by a dictator being someone who rules alone, we can certainly say that Hitler was not the dictator of Nazi Germany, but his preferred title of Father of Germany. (If you wish to say that Hitler ruled without advisers you are an idiot, I'm sorry to say).- Comrade B.

Opus Dei?

The article mentions Opus Dei as Franco's ideology. There is no citation. If there is no evidence for this then it should be deleted. In fact Franco was not a member of Opus Dei and some members actually opposed Franco and were imprisoned while others did serve in the government. Overall a poor article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.108.48.56 (talk) 03:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

A mess

This article is a mess, from the unqualified use of the term "fascist" on. It needs substantial rewriting. Jaimehy (talk) 11:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

A real mess indeed

This article is deporable. So many words for such a poor result.

"Francoism" lasted for almost forty years. From its start to its end, Spain, Spaniards, and Spanish society as a whole changed dramatically in any respect (demographics, education, religion, economy, culture, external relationships, class dynamics,...). And Franco's regime did so; even in its politics (... yes, politics).

Therefore characterize Spain under the 40 years of Franco dictatorship just by some (mostly anecdotal and/or irrelevant) of its features from the early forties is a real mess, indeed.

Just a little sample: Most towns were patrolled by pairs of Guardia Civil, a military police for civilians. As every Spaniard more than 40 years old know, this is a pure, and rather stupid, fable. And so on ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Buron444 (talk • contribs) 10:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Articles requires

I want what English Wikipedia has two articles in Castilian Wikipedia (Spanish Wikipedia) considered feature articles there.

• Franquism mottos Lemas del franquismo (es)
• Franquism symbols (or simbology...) Simbología del franquismo (es)

Thanks for all! and excuse me for my english. Thor8 (talk) 18:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

(Un)Deletion in talk page December 14

I find totally inapropiate to delete comments in the talk page unless you are the author or there are objective, read legal, grounds (with no exception after discussion)

I disagree with the comment just deleted (and undeleted by me) but for the title and a few details. ATM I'm in no mood to refute it (but interested search for my signature in the archives and here). But I feel the user has ALL the right to expose its points --Wllacer (talk) 19:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

---

Small details corrected, structure and vocabulary need cleanup

Regarding to the section Franco's death and funerals, I replaced "the new title of Prince of Spain" by "the new title of King of Spain". It is important to remark that although the position of Juan Carlos de Borbón before Franco's decision was of "Prince", Franco designated him as "King" of Spain.

Regarding to the section Franco's legacy, I changed the currency in which the family's estimated wealth was expressed. Since that fortune is currently existent, it is pointless to express it in Pesetas, currency that is not used anymore in Spain. I changed it to its equivalent in Euros. The next economic data, regarding to the pension to Franco's widow, was left as Pesetas because that pension was strictly at that time, when Pesetas were being used.

These are small details; however, the structure of the article needs a complete different shape. For instance, Juan Carlos's designation is mentioned in "Franco's Death and Funerals", when it has actually nothing to do with his death, and not even at the time of it.

Finally, the vocabulary of the article needs a strong cleanup. For example, in the section "The first months", the expression "Despite Franco having no money" appears to be more like a novel than an encyclopedic article.

--Antonio.bustamante (talk) 04:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Portrait for the infobox

An official portrait (like the one on the cover of Preston's biography) should be uploaded and placed in the infobox. Currently it contains a blurry 1969 photo cut from a newspaper just because Spanish Wiki has it readily available. A photo from civil war period wouldn't make harm either. Pavel Vozenilek (talk) 21:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Righteous Among the Nations?!

Franco appeared listed in the "Righteous Among the Nations category" and in the list by country. As I didn't find an official list from Yed Vashem, the organism that regulates the award, I emailed them about this (I hope) good faith mistake, and I got this response from its Director, Irena Steinfeldt:

It is indeed a mistake. Francisco Franco was never recognized as Righteous Among the Nations.

We are presentely working on an upgraded website, where we will also put all the names of the Righteous recognized by Yad Vashem. Hopefully the site will be up within a couple of months. Thank you for informing us and for your interest. Irena Steinfeldt

Director, Righteous Among the Nations Department

Yad Vashem

P.O.B. 3477

91034 Jerusalem

Tel: 972-2-6443 521

Fax: 972-2-6443 743

email: irena.steinfeldt@yadvashem.org.il

www.yadvashem.org

So I'll delete him from the category.JorgeGT (talk) 12:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Film Clip: Franco with wife & daughter, addressing the people of the U.S.A.?

Back in the early 1980's I saw a black & white film clip of Franco, with his wife & daughter, addressing the people of the U.S.A., describing their family values etc. It was on a PBS show. I suspect it was made as part of the normalization of relations during the Eisenhower period. Does anyone have a reference for this film clip? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.97.110.142 (talk) 18:27, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Is this one [4]? From the decorations (and the uniform) he wears, it was shot during the war. I a only remember one with the full family but spoken in Spanish (edited for propaganda purposes here [5], haven't found yet and unmanipulated copy-) and IIRCs it's only a little later (1942-43). Carmencita married in 1950.

Despite what current comentators say, Franco speaking in english (he is said to have studied it prior to the war), which until recently, say mid 60's, was a very minoritary foreing language here in Spain, was something remarkable then. Current spanish politicians don't fare that well if at all ;-) --Wllacer (talk) 21:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Cyborg army in "Early Life"

Can someone confirm that Franco did in fact defeat a cyborg army in 1923? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.25.141.6 (talk) 05:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

WTF? Are you seriously asking that ?Wllacer (talk) 21:31, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Political prisoners and the Valle de los Caidos

I've excised following sentence from the last contri

It was built by Republican prisoners of war under forced labour.

While it is a common propaganda topic that it was build by political prisoners, the reality has been thorougly studied and it wasn't ... almost. Perhaps some 1000 political prisoners worked there for the 20 years of building, and all of them in administrative posts and, in relative terms, exceptionaly good conditions. The rest was free labor (f.i. the father of late actor Paco Rabal).

For a quick review of the question, see an article of 2006 by noted journalist Victoria Prego here. (sadly in Spanish) Only a martian would ever accuse her of being a francoist, so don't expect such a bias.

Anyhow, for the doubtful ones, the Valle is carved out of a granit mountain, so it was built primarily by blasting. Would anyone use -if only for security reasons- for this task presumed untrustful convicts , with dynamite or the like within easy reach ? I wouldn't, for sure. Wllacer (talk) 21:31, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Current relations

I removed the following:

===Current Relations===

Francisco Franco's currently living distant relations are not sure of, but could be Mexican-American. There have been a few vague records of--although not known to be totally true-- a few families with the name of Franco moving to Mexico from Spain, and later to the USA during World War II.

It is vague, unreferenced and not very interesting. There are already unmentioned living descendants of Franco who at least appear in gossip magazines. --Error (talk) 19:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Unorthodox citation

The obelisk at Las Raíces is "cited" by linking the words Las Raíces to a photo of the (heavily grafittied) obelisk. For one thing, linking this way is not how we normally link references. For another, it's really hard to know that the photo is what it ostends to be. There isn't much online about this, in any case. Can anyone suggest a source for a good print citation? - Jmabel | Talk 06:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Generalissimo?

Unlike the article on Chiang Kai-shek, the article on Franco makes no reference to him as Generalissimo. The NY times, Time Magazine, et al all use Generalissimo when referring to Franco. Any problem using that phrase in the article?--Work permit (talk) 03:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Use now or used it? Nowadays, in Spain using this word in regard to Franco is taboo (and, cum grano salis verging on felony). You'd get automatically labeled as a hard core francoist, if the term appears even once in a paper ...

More seriously, as I wrote before in this talk page; regarding the usage of the term 'dictator' for him, current spanish usage puts me, without a very careful redaction, on seeing both words regarding Franco, on NPOV "alarm mode". Besides a phrase stating that one of the most usual contemporany styles for him was Generalisiimo (de todos los Ejercitos); I'd refrain from using the term extensively --Wllacer (talk) 14:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I wasn't aware of the sensitivity, though I suspected there must have been a reason I didn't see it in the article. I'll leave it alone of course. I find it interesting that Generalissimo labels you a francoist. To my untrained ear the term seems derogatory.--Work permit (talk) 17:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The term Generalissimo hears itself like a tintinesque dictator's title, but in the case of Franco and Chiang was a more or less official title. While neutral to hostile sources used (in his lifetime) to use the plain appelation general Franco (in a somewhat demeaning, but uncompromising sense) to him, his supporters (and the official press) started emphasizing the form generalisimo (spanish spelling), and it stuck, and still is. For generational -and other- reasons it's becoming more uncommon, but the cliché stays.--Wllacer (talk) 00:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a fascist

I recently made an edit indicating, correctly, that contrary to a sometimes popular misconception Franco and Franco's Spain were not fascist. It was reverted and suggested that it is POV to say Franco's not fascist. To state that Franco was not a fascist is not POV. It is a fact of history and political science. It is the overwhelming consensus of scholars on the subject; Payne, the leading scholar on Spain and fascism, says as much. I provided two reliable sources to support this, Payne and Laqueur. The fact that he may have borrowed the trappings of Fascism is beside the point. Many interwar governments had policies and trappings in common with fascism, including the New Deal. It is fair to say Franco was authoritarian and a dictator, that he borrowed some of the trappings of fascism and that some of his supporters early on were fascist but going beyond that is not accurate. One distinction, is that he lacked in particular the revolutionary nature of fascism.

In support of this point, please see the following: “Twentieth century dictatorships may be detestable, but the are not necessarily fascist. Japan in the 1930s was not a Fascist country…nor was Spain under Franco.” Laqueur, Walter Fascism: Past, Present, Future p. 13 1996 Oxford University Press “Franco was not a fascist. There is an element of revolutionary politics in Fascism, of wanting to provoke dramatic change in society. That was not Franco’s intention…” De Menses, Filipe Ribeiro Franco and the Spanish Civil War, p. 87 Routledge “Whatever else he was, Franco was not a fascist. He was a devout, conservative, military man with a small and basic stock of highly reactionary ideas…” Gilmour, David, The Transformation of Spain: From Franco to the Constitutional Monarchy, p. 7 1985 Quartet Books “The aftermath of the civil war made it clear that the new regime was not so much a revolutionary fascist state as a rightist authoritarian system flavored with fascist rhetoric.” Payne, Stanley Fascism in Spain, 1923-1977, p. 347 1999 Univ. of Wisconsin Press “This does not mean that Franco was ever a generic fascist sensu strictu. … scarcely any of the serious historians and analysts of Franco consider the generalissimo to have been a core fascist.” Payne, Stanley Fascism in Spain, 1923-1977, p. 476 1999 Univ. of Wisconsin Press I think this plainly and clearly supports the point, I am going to reinsert the edit with the additional, multiple citations. Mamalujo (talk) 18:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

As to the edit to the effect that scholar debate the extent to which he was a fascist, it is not accurate nor sourced. I don't believe any substantial number of reliable scholars say he was fascist. The overwhelming view is that he lacked certain essential elements. Mamalujo (talk) 18:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't really agree here--as I see it, when Payne says he is "not a core fascist" this means is is to a considerable extent a fascist, though not entirely orthodox.I tink that is the meaning otherwise--he was not a literal follower of Mussolini, but he fits within the general umbrella. DGG (talk) 00:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we're getting there. I read some of what I could find by Payne online and Griffiths, who seems well regarded as a fascism expert. It looks like there is some consensus that Franco's Spain differed from Italian Fascism and Nazism since it lacked the idea of establishing a revolutionary new order. I think it's important that mention this as the primary reason why Franco is not lumped with Italian Fascism and Nazism. Franco still adopted many other aspects of fascism including nationalism, militarism, authoritarianism, anti-liberalism, single party rule, and fascist symbolism and rhetoric. Also, Griffiths (101-105) discuses how, while he thinks Franco was definitely not fascist in his later years, in the 30s and 40s his categorization was not as clear. Griffiths cites several of Franco's speeches and interviews in this time period were Franco accepts the label "fascist," albeit hesitantly. I think these sections (I can provide more thorough cites.. doing more research) show that Franco obviously had some ties to fascism, both the movement and the ideology, but wasn't a "core fascist," focused on ideology.--Bkwillwm (talk) 02:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

To Mamalujo:While on the scholary debate on Fascism you're probably right, that there is a certain consensus that to label Franco's regime as fascist (at least without a long list of qualifiers) is to stretch the definition of the term; is undoubtly that a number of current historians of Franco (starting from Preston) use the term unqualified. Whether it is honest believe, lack of precision in terminology, political bias or sheer bad scholarship, is up for each individual case to judge. At least in this area the debate is not closed, so the edit you were victim was not totally off the mark.

To Bkwillwm None of the phenomenons you cite - nationalism, militarism, authoritarianism, anti-liberalism, single party rule - are (alone or combined) essential to fascism. They all can be found (in varios degrees of blending) in spanish political history from 1808 onwards (cf. Carlism, which predates over hundred years any form of fascism).

In general, the though question of Franco's fascism (or his regime's) rest on its origins: Unlike Mussolini or Hitler, Franco was not an intellectual or/and effective leader of an articulated political movement who took over/wanted to take over a State: Franco was a -for spanish standards, apolitical- military who was put on command of an ideologically diffuse counterrevolutionary party on a civil war, and who was in the need (ex post facto) to articulate a government and an auxiliary ideology. For a number of reasons, the outward trappings selected were those of an (already sui generis, and actually headless) fascist movement: Falange. While there is little doubt that from 1957 onwards, little of substance was left of fascism, the 20 years before (and specially up to 1943 -the dismissal of Ramón Serrano Suñer would be the watershed-) the degree of permeation of true fascism in the regime behavior are rather more open to question .

Add to that that Franco (public speeches excluded, whose authorship is always dubious) never articulated his political views in writing (there is no equivalent to Mein Kampf, or even to Mussolini's articles); and (as of 2008) there is only ONE biography which makes use of Franco's personal papers (that of medievalist Luis Suarez, fairly simpathetic to him, and which some historians make a point NOT citing); the debate of Franco's own ideological stance will last for a long time Wllacer (talk) 09:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Wllacer, I think we're pretty much in agreement. From what I've read, Franco wasn't much for ideology. However, he had clear connections and associations with fascism, most notably associating himself with Spain's fascist movement and allying with Nazis and Italian Fascists. The article shouldn't say that Franco was or wasn't fascist, the argument is mainly semantic anyway, but it should reflect his association with fascism. And it should discuss the post-WWII move of Franco's regime away from fascism.--Bkwillwm (talk) 02:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi there,

As Mamalujo says, there was very little fascism in Franco's Spain. As far as modern Spanish historians are concerned, Franco would not be counted as a fascist in the political sense of the word, not by a longshot. Franco used a fascist movement, the Falange, as a counterbalance to his other main allied faction, the Carlists. He played them against each other, and it is widely believed that he had an active part in the destruction of Primo de Rivera Jr.'s movement; and then he melded what was left together, in a master stroke of opportunism, which was his main ideology. He has been defined as "National Catholic", as a pun on "National Socialist".

From an encyclopedic point of view, I really think that not listing Franco as a fascist would be an important point. And believe me, I have no sympathies towards this guy.

Cheers! Dr Benway (talk) 14:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)