Talk:Tropical Storm Fay (2008)

Tropical Storm Fay
Tropical storm (SSHWS/NWS)
	Fay striking the Dominican Republic
Formed	August 15, 2008
Dissipated	Still Active
Highest winds	1-minute sustained: 65 mph (100 km/h) ;
Lowest pressure	986 mbar (hPa); 29.12 inHg
Fatalities	14 direct, 1 indirect
Areas affected	Dominican Republic, Haiti, Cuba , Florida
	Part of the 2008 Atlantic hurricane season

Template:Hurricane

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Complacency in Florida

NYTimes says Floridians aren't preparing well, for a number of reasons. Let's hope the story doesn't become very relevant. Plasticup ^T/C 15:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We need a prep bit for that. Itfc+canes=me (talk) 16:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itfc+canes=me (talk • contribs) [reply]

And if it never affects Florida then complacency in Florida is irrelevant. Plasticup ^T/C 00:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We will include it if it does..... Itfc+canes=me (talk) 10:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why should it be included? This is not a newspaper or editor's column or pundit show, this is an article of information, and the opinion of complacency should not be included. It is not neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.104.32.27 (talk) 14:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hurricane Fay & xkcd

Hurricane Fay is humorously similar in direction and habit to screw-it-let's-just-trash-florida-again from the xkcd comic upcoming hurricanes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.232.204.10 (talk) 23:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DR Transit Accident

23 people were killed in DR in a bus accident due to the rains of Fay. I added them to the death count. I'm not sure if these deaths would be direct or indirect: I guessed indirect. And I really couldn't figure out how to make the refs as fancy as the other ones, but their there in any case. 24.224.188.118 (talk) 23:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They would definitely be indirect. CrazyC83 (talk) 00:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes definitely indirect.... i'm gonna prep a template for when/if this thing dies. Itfc+canes=me (talk) 10:22, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They are not related. I am in the DR, and this happened before it even began raining. It was cloudy, yes, but it was not raining yet. Please make the proper correction. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.80.140.2 (talk) 21:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I second that. The accident happened in the early morning, but the storm was pouring heavy rainfall on that zone by the afternoon. The rain did not contribute to those accidents at all. 64.32.82.183

Template for fay's death

Itfc+canes=me (talk) 10:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC) (minor changes) Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:58, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it a bit early for all this? We won't be needing it for several days yet, and when we do we can easily draw it up in about 90 seconds. Plasticup ^T/C 18:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

updated using best track info from NRL Jason Rees (talk) 04:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Life as an Invest and as "The Joker"

Would it be appropriate to add to the article that this system was tracked for several days as NHC Invest that many in the meteorological press (such as Wunderground's Jeff Masters) dubbed "The Joker" due to it's quirkiness? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.119.40 (talk) 19:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not. I've only seen Jeff Masters refer to it as "The Joker". In any event, unless the media picks up the name, the term doesn't warrant inclusion. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone

Article Importance

Under the Importance guidelines which are located Here it is rated as a High Class as at least 117 people have died Jason Rees (talk) 20:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although those guidelines suggest that a storm which caused as many deaths as Fay would be high-importance, they are simply guidelines, and are in no way official. That said, we have to take common sense into account with this one. Sadly, tropical cyclones regularly cause as many deaths as Fay did in Hispaniola, thus, it isn't a rare or unprecedented event, and unless there is significant damage in Florida or in the Southeast U.S., the storm deserves mid-importance at the most. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 22:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also those are almost entirely indirect deaths. Excluding those it is clearly a Low importance storm. This is as unremarkable as Atlantic tropical storms can be. Anything other than Low importance is totally unjustified. Somehow every storm that impacts the US gains a contingent pushing for "High" importance - I shouldn't have to remind everyone that this is an international encyclopedia, and as global tropical cyclones go, this storm is nothing. Hurricane Dean is Mid importance. Tropical Storm Fay isn't even close to being in the same league. Plasticup ^T/C 23:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I've said, generally, WPTC's importance assessments are too low, so I would support {{Mid-Importance}} here. I'm not sure {{High-Importance}} is warranted yet; we can wait for the final landfall to figure that out. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 23:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The category is made up of tropical cyclones; most of them should be low-importance, IMO, with high-importance reserved for articles that aren't about a specific hurricane.--Prosfilaes (talk) 10:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why write the article while the storm is active?

Why don't people wait to write articles like this until after the storm is over? It seems ridiculous that people need to keep updating it as the storm progresses. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not an ongoing weather report, right? 209.247.22.166 (talk) 17:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is the advantage of waiting until it is over? I can't think of any, but the disadvantages are significant: we lose time-sensitive information, editors interest wanes, and readers interest weakens too. So the better question is, why wait? Plasticup ^T/C 17:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe because if editors' interest will wane and readers' interest will weaken, it wasn't much of a worthwhile subject in the first place. Not everything needs an article in Wikipedia! 67.79.157.50 (talk) 17:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that not everything needs and article, but are you suggesting that this event is not notable? It is natural that interest will wane, but I don't think that has much of a bearing on the article's notability. The United States presidential election, 2004 isn't as popular as it used to be, and United States presidential election, 2008 will eventually go the same way, but does that mean they shouldn't be included? Plasticup ^T/C 17:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Most everything is an article, and a lot of articles that should not be are, so why would this tropical storm not be an article? The only reason why some storms do not have articles are: they probably did not impact land, did not hamper local life, or there is not enough information. This storm has/will impact the entire state of florida, every county, city, and person. That is very rare, at least some corner of florida is left out of it. However this time its not, not to mention this is an unusually slow and resilient storm that should of died days ago over land, but unforunately it did not. Mind you that the point of this discussion was not originally "should this be an article". Articles are best written at the moment to get as much information as you can. Information is lost over time, there's always confusion in articles and events that happened even 10-15 years ago. When i went to school there were varying dates and years when the cold war ended, or when certain events happened like MLK Jr's death and what not. To preserve the accuracy of events is to write them as they happen and polish later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.104.32.27 (talk) 02:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Humans will literally bicker about anything. Wikipedia seems to be a magnet for this social oddity.--Biturica (talk) 05:40, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion constructively Biturica, then please do not say anything at all.

Preparations

The Wall Street Journal give a high level overview. It also estimates only 14 deaths. Plasticup ^T/C 12:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The numbers vary widely between sources. Until the NHC gives a reliable estimate, best to use the normal standard of a compilation of all sources. It is possible that the 80 dead by being swept away on vehicles may go down as indirect, but the description of "swept away" is usually direct as it is caused by flooding. CrazyC83 (talk) 14:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The sources I read made it sound like the bus crashed. Also, are those 80 confirmed dead? I thought that most of the "missing" had survived. Plasticup ^T/C 14:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Source 25 says an accurate count was impossible and the number of bodies so far is 3. The 30 was classified as a mistake if I read it correctly. Also I find it suspicious that the same river got 30 and 50. I think these are the same accident and the total deaths counted as '80' in the article is in fact 3 with an unknown number missing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.33.111.74 (talk) 16:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The bus accident in the Dominican Republic was totally unrelated. The citation didn't even mention the weather, let alone a Tropical Storm. Plasticup ^T/C 00:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tornado table

Does this article really need a table listing every single possible tornado? Seems like way too much detail for an encyclopedia article. 4.154.3.138 (talk) 23:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not limited in the same way as a dead tree encyclopedia. That said, if they continue at this rate I hope they will be split off into a separate article. Plasticup ^T/C 23:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I tried to hide it but it was re-added. A split article is unlikely to be warranted at this point (maybe on 2nd landfall if an outbreak happens - based on WP Severe Weather standards as if this was any other system). I think it should be removed and the text of the more notable ones incorporated into the impact section. CrazyC83 (talk) 02:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to see inclusion of tornadic weather in South Carolina spawned by a distant Fay. --Biturica (talk) 05:35, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Photos

I live in Daytona Beach, Florida, and started to upload some photos to Wikimedia. Not much to see as yet. Gamweb (talk) 08:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC) http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Tropical_Storm_Fay_(2008)[reply]

Very cool. It looks like most of our impacts are going to be water-related, so could you get us a picture of the ocean? Waves breaking on the beach, that kind of thing. Thanks a bunch. Oh, and if you happen to see one of these tornadoes... ;-) Plasticup ^T/C 14:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you happen to see one of those tornadoes, run to safety, then worry about the pictures. If it catches you, it will probably destroy the camera, and then where would be? :-) --Prosfilaes (talk) 15:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I took this one on the 19th. The professional paparazzi just happened to be these as I approached... http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:2008Fay-DaytonaBeach4.jpg Gamweb (talk) 19:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added an image from Merritt Island - if anyone wants me to upload more, email me please, thanks. KillerChihuahua^?!? 17:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

US Navy Meteorology & Oceanography Tropical Support Center

I added a link to the US Navy Meteorology & Oceanography Tropical Support Center. Since the Navy is a branch of the US Government, you should be able to have free use of any of their images. There is an archive of "warning maps" going back about 8 years on that site. Gamweb (talk) 18:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alligator on the loose in Melbourne, Florida

http://www.local6.com/weather/17244086/detail.html?1 Gamweb (talk) 05:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some trees were knocked down

"a tornado was reported on Big Coppitt Key, where some trees were knocked down." - I removed this as it is most likely subtle vandalism. My first impulse was to remove it without comment, but figured I'd better check to see if this was reported and the author simply forgot a reference. However, I could not find a reference for this.

This points out the extra vigilence we need to have on current events to insist on sources as the frequent edits, especially if they sound "plausible" can make Wikipedia look stuipd and our saving grace is to remember that Wikipedia is a tertiary source that needs to rely on reliable sources not primary sources or "I heard that" news. --Trödel 19:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I follow. Why do you suspect that a claim of downed trees is vandalism? –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 19:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because trees being knocked down during a tropical storm is not notable. --Trödel 20:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree. Especially considering the intensity of this particular tropical cyclone was not great, a mention of trees down is an informative and useful piece of information. Also, the trees down were a result of the tornado, not Fay itself. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 20:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, the SPC report backs up that statement. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 19:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But that is a primary source first of all - we should be quoting reliable secondary sources, secondly mention on SPC doesn't even make it notable, thirdly, SPC only supports that one TREE was knocked down not "some trees". --Trödel 20:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Storm Prediction Center is most certainly a reliable secondary source. If a work of the the U.S. Federal Government is not a reliable source, nothing is. Sure, the SPC only mentions one tree was knocked down, but is that a reason enough to delete the entire statement from the article? Why not make the small edit to correct the article? If notability is in fact your reason given for the removal of that content, then please explain to me how a downed tree is not notable. Sure, in the Hurricane Katrina article a downed tree is left for the subarticles, or doesn't even merit inclusion at all. Yet in an article where the impact section will most likely be limited to small claims of impacts such as that, then yes, a downed tree is notable enough for inclusion. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 21:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it "trees down" to which you object, or the tornado, or other? I agree "trees down" is not notable - trees are down in my yard, for crying out loud. A tree in Daytona fell on a car and totaled it. I can find the news story about that. No tornadoes were involved in most of the tree downings, but the tornados are worth mentioning IMO. What say we mention the tornadoes and skip the trees? That's a little like saying "There was a record amount of ranfall, and the ground became very wet". KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To mention the tornadoes and not the associated effects would limit the comprehensiveness of the article. It would be similar to confining this very article to "Tropical Storm Fay hit land". –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 21:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Actually, "a tornado was reported on Big Coppitt Key," is notable enough. The "where some trees were knocked down" part is arguable, but it is a description of the damaged caused by that particular tornado, and saying that a tornado occurred without saying what it did is somewhat of a cliffhanger. If it seems too trivial, you can always say, "where it caused minimal damage" if that's all the tornado did. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 21:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think Trödel is getting mixed up on notability. The trees being blown down is not notable in the sense that it does not warrant its own article, but it is still worthy of inclusion. For instance, in a biography article we usually mention that the person has a mother, even though the mother may not be notable in and of herself. Plasticup ^T/C 17:25, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rainfall

From someone who lives in Central Florida and regards wiki to be my sanctuary for hurricane info, this article hasn't even touched on the rainfall impact that this storm as had on the region. This rainmaker has been here for 3 days going on 4 and poor Melbourne has gotten over 30+ inches of rain. Try the Orlando Sentinel's web page or even TWC's page for some info on the damage and photos of submerged cars and fallen trees. Fay is a freak of nature to all of us here cause she will not go away and the public here is absolutely gone mad because of it. Just about two hours ago the strongest winds of the storm came through Orlando and surrounding areas, however, we have been dealing with the storm for 72+ hours. Altarboy420 (talk) 00:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I live in orlando, and to be honest, right now the rainfall impact cannot be measured up yet. We have to wait till the storm has completely passed us before we can add nearly any worthwhile information about the impact of the rainfall, we might have to wait a few weeks as with all other hurricanes, to gauge the gigantic impact of any storm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.104.32.27 (talk) 02:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is why you should not use Wikipedia as a replacement for your local weather service. We are writing an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and speed is not our goal. Plasticup ^T/C 10:50, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weather Services dont cover indepth the impact of storms, only the current information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.104.32.27 (talk) 14:36, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

60 Homes flooded in Volusia County: http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/frtHEAD01CANE082208.htm Gamweb (talk) 15:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Records?

Fay must have broken some kind of record by now, for instance its about to move out and hit the state for a 3rd time, i cant think of a storm that impacted 3 times on the same state. Also the rainfall must be records highs for florida. Anyway, i cant find any records but im not looking hard enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.104.32.27 (talk) 02:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gordon in 1994 comes to mind... Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 02:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well it broke that record. First recorde storm to make landfall on florida 4 times (probably the only state to have that) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.104.32.27 (talk) 14:43, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deaths

Fay killed five in Florida: http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080822/ap_on_re_us/tropical_weather_fay Itfc+canes=me (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Impact - worthy of a seperate article?

Could the impact be worth of a seperate article yet? I think so... its on my sandbox Itfc+canes=me (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why would it need a separate article? Right now this storm is utterly insignificant except for its impact in Florida, and its impact there is not exceptional. I don't understand how you would justify that article. Plasticup ^T/C 16:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You Live in Florida with 2 feet of water then tell me it's not significant. Also this is exceptional a T.S. lasting this long and not moving yeah. It worthy but I don't think it need one.

1) It de-clutters the article... lately it has been looking increasingly cluttered.

2) There is enough infomation on the impact to create 1 - we know most things OR we could split the impact to the different areas. Itfc+canes=me (talk) 17:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article is shorter than average. It is 23kb long. If it reaches 80–90kb then we can start talking about splitting it up. Plasticup ^T/C 17:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Plasticup, there are longer articles out there that are not sperated. Not to say that this is not in anyway insignificant, Florida has 3 major ports for the us (Miami, Jacksonville, Tampa) not to mention numerous military installations. This disrupts quite a bit, not to mention an entire state has pretty much stopped in its tracks for almost a week now (the 4th most populous state i might add) is siginifcant in itself. Still though, this article is not worthy of being sperated into two parts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.104.32.27 (talk) 00:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ok... end of discussion..... i have these for you to put in the article i don't know how to: http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080823/ap_on_re_us/tropical_weather_fay and http://news.yahoo.com/story//afp/20080822/ts_alt_afp/usweatherstorm Itfc+canes=me (talk) 12:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Storm That Just Won't Go Away

I live in Florida and wow...non-stop raining I mean wow. This pretty bad. Students miss school everyday this week in my county after going to the first day of school day(Mon,18 Aug). When a storm don't more I mean really not moving its bad. records has been broken in Florida. It his us 4 different places. Does Fay know we are here. Dontay (talk) 18:23, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]