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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 88.112.122.68 (talk) at 12:12, 30 August 2008 (→Russian-Georgian War). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This subpage of the 2008 South Ossetia war talk page is to be used only to discuss proposed changes to the title of the 2008 South Ossetia war article. General discussions about improvements to the 2008 South Ossetia war article should be made at Talk:2008 South Ossetia war.

The overarching policy on naming is given at Wikipedia:Naming conventions.

Multiple previous discussions have taken place on the article's title. See the following:

This page has been created in order to try and bring discussion together. Feel free to state your position on the renaming by beginning a new line in the sections below with *Support or *Oppose, then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions. Feel free to add new sections for proposals not already covered.

General considerations

War, war or conflict

I.e. should the title contain the word "war" (lower case), "War" (upper case) or "conflict"?

"Georgia and Russia fought a brief war earlier this month over South Ossetia" Reuters --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC) maybe someone should view the past discussions of 2006 Lebanon War. The exactly same discussion was going on there too.--TheFEARgod (Ч) 18:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment I would like to note there is only one editor who stated opposition to both Russia-Georgia War and Russia-Georgia conflict with those supporting one opposing the other. As such the main dispute does not seem to be how to describe the conflict as editors here and the media in general suggest it was Russia-Georgia, but whether to call it a war or a conflict.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:31, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian-Georgian --TheFEARgod (Ч) 15:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, it's Russia-Georgia. I think the individual who started this talk page simply wasn't thinking of the fact Russia-Georgia, not Russian-Georgian, is the most common usage.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
why, it's more logical. Like Spanish-American War not Spain-America War. Do you see the difference? --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
what a trivial problem, I see now down the correct terms. We went offtopic here. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
I think Russo-Georgian War is best, but that's not what it's being called. That's all I'm saying. It's being called Russia-Georgia not Russian-Georgian. Of course, in the end that's a minor issue but I think is the Russian-Georgian version gets the most support here the title should be Russia-Georgia to reflect the current widest-used variation.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Principle of naming

See Wikipedia:Naming conventions.
I.e. should we follow the current media usage, wait until a settled name in English emerges or work out a name derived on its merits?

Use 2008 in the title

Either at the beginning ("2008 ...") or at the end ("... (2008)") or not at all.

Specific options

2008 South Ossetia war

I.e. stick with the current name.
  • Oppose This is one of the least used names for the conflict and does not accurately represent the broad nature of it. It began in South Ossetia, but it spread to Abkhazia and the rest of Georgia. This name should not continue being used.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Strongly Support The name makes sense. Most of the fighting occurred in South Ossetia. The war started when the Georgians seized South Ossetia. The Russians would have had no Casus Belli, even if they really, really wanted to, had Georgia not attacked South Ossetia. There has been relatively little fighting in Abkhazia and elsewhere. Renaming the conflict, because most of the mass media does it is just plain silly. Both sides of the media are biased, and wikipedia, which claims to be unbiased, should not follow suit. If you rename the war, this article is no longer unbiased, and you're simply parroting the Fox News "Fair and Balanced" views of what the war should be called. If there's heavy fighting in other areas, we can rename it, otherwise, stop trying to parrot the Fox News line, it's silly and quite unprofessional. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.166.129.39 (talk) 07:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, let's take a look at the naming conventions of all wars since WWII, or at least all wars that the US has been in, and some that USSR has been in, just at the names, becuase I don't want to open a can of worms. The proposed change here is to change the excellent name of 2008 South Ossetian War to Russo-Georgian war, or something like that.
So according to that logic, the Korean War should be called the US - Chinese War
The Vietnam War should be called US - Vietcong War or US - Vietnam War
The Afghanistan War should be called USSR - Taliban War or USSR - Afghanistan War
The Cuban Missile Crisis should be called the US - USSR or USSR - US Missile Crisis
And I could go on and on and on. Whether you agree with such renaming or not, is beside the point. We have been naming wars after the location where the most fighting occurs. Just look at the recent ones, the Afghanistan War, the Iraqi War, the Chechen War, etc. Now some may say what about the Persian Gulf War? That is one exception, and yet it is still territory based, because Iraq is part of the Persian Gulf region. An equivalent would be the Caucasian War, although I don't think that Armenia, Azerbaijan or Turkey would agree.
The point is that wars, since WWII, as well as conflicts are territorially named. The Western Media, in its rather pathetic attempt to claim that Russia started this war, wants to, against all conventions of military history and war naming, name this war the Russo - Georgian War, to hint at the fact that Russia is the agressor, which is clearly and blatantly not the case. Russia responded when Georgians, be they provoked by Ossetians or not, shot at Russian civillians and peacekeepers. Whether the Russians over-reacted or not, another debatable point, it is crystal clear that Russians are not the agressors, and the proposed name change is not only incorrect in the eyes of any military historian, but also completely biased, and therefore against Wikipedia standards. The 2008 South Ossetian War is a perfect name for it, let's keep it, let's be unbiased at least in the naming of this article. Since I strongly agree with the current name, I, by default, strongly disagree with any of the proposed name changes to it, and will file a complaint with the wikipedia staff if the name is changed, unless my concerns are answered, which as a military historian I damn well know they cannot be, so the name stays. Thank you. And hey - you are welcome to try. 64.105.27.214 (talk) 23:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
You're also ignoring the Franco-Prussian War, Russo-Japanese War, Anglo-Iraqi War, Sino-Vietnamese War, and hell you're even ignoring the Iran-Iraq War. Each war or conflict is defined and named differently. The reason the names you mentioned are established names is because this is how they are most widely named. In this case the most widely-used name is not South Ossetia War, it is in fact one of the names used the least. The most widely-used name is Russia-Georgia conflict.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Dear Devil's Advocate, it appears you have missed the part where I said that nearly all Wars since WWII were named after the location. I have bolded that part for you and for the future public. The Iran - Iraq War took place in Iraq and in Iran! There's no way that this war will carry over unto Russian soil. Therefore, the Iran - Iraq War where fighting took place in both Iran and Iraq is an inappropriate example. The same can be said of the Sino-Vietnamese War, where Vietnam, in a counter-offensive, invaded a small part of China. All of your other examples happened before WWII and are irrelevant. Wikipedia must be objective, not based on the "most widely used name" as you and your friends at Fox News undoubtedly want it to be. Using your examples of the Iran-Iraq War and the Sino-Vietnamese War, this should then be called the Georgian-Ossetian War, not the Russo-Georgian War. In both cases, there was fighting in both countries. In this war, with the Georgian army currently numbering less then 10,000 effective troops + those who won't go outside of Tbilisi, and Russians with at least 120,000 effective troops in the area I strongly doubt this war will spread to Russian soil. You have yet to give me a post-WWII counter-example that would get Russia into the war title, except for yelling "but Fox News and CNN said so, hence we should do it". Still waiting for those WMDs to be found in Iraq. The corporate media on both sides bullshits, so this article, really shouldn't be based on them, and you have yet to offer any reasonable proof. 64.105.27.214 (talk) 02:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry bud, but the Sino-Vietnamese War and Iran-Iraq War both happened after World War II.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
after all, this seems a good point. 90% of warfare took place in South Ossetia.--TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. See my justification for title "Russian-Georgian war".Biophys (talk) 17:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Support The conflict began in South Ossetia, and although it did spread, a majority of the fighting between involved parties (and causalities inflicted by ground warfare) occurred in that territory. Now, if Russia and Georgia fight again over unresolved issues in the region (hopefully not) then it will probably necessitate a name change. An example I would cite is the Vietnam War, which describes the region in conflict, but not the major player (the US); notably this conflict also experienced spillover. Menrunningpast (talk) 03:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Support The current name reflects the cause, objective, and the primary theater of the war. Neutralizing offensive capabilities of Georgia by Russia within Georgia proper does not change these facts and does not make it a war between Georgia and Russia. Also, South Ossetia War is how it is consistently referred to in neutral international media. Editors of Kosovo War, Bosnian War, Gulf War managed to keep their article titles non-tendentious. At least wiki should have less of double-standard junk. Gleb (talk) 20:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian-Georgian War

Including varients such as Russian-Georgian war, Russo-Georgian War, 2008 Russian-Georgian War, Russian-Georgian War (2008), etc.
  • Support Though change war to conflict as that is what the media is primarily using to describe the current conflict. Russia-Georgia conflict is the most widely used term to describe the conflict and all major media organizations agree it is a conflict between the two nations with separatists on Russia's side. For now a variation of this name is the most appropriate title and should be implemented ASAP.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Yep. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. Russia did not declare a war on Georgia (or the other way around), nor does it have any intention to conquer Georgia and do something to the territory. This article can be, however, called "Russo-Georgian Conflict (2008)". --Mrcatzilla (talk) 20:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Mrcatzilla - is it the use of the term "conflict" that you see as making all the difference? (remember, not all wars are wars of conquest) Greenshed (talk) 20:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually, yes. --Mrcatzilla (talk) 10:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Support As the English-language media now favour this or similar terms, we should follow suit. If a different name emerges in the long run then we can rename the article again at that stage. Greenshed (talk) 20:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose There is not consensus on calling this conflict a war, although all recognise there was a conflict. Although Georgian President declared war by decree which was passed by parliament, Russia is on a legal peacekeeping mission convened with Georgia and did not declare war. Also there are about 1900 google news results for "Russia Georgia conflict" and 300 for "Russia Georgia war". The poll began with incomplete options, and IMHO consensus could be reached. I am now obliged to add the option Russian Georgian Conflict to the poll options as it has still not been proposed, even though "conflict" was mentioned in "considerations". :/--Tananka (talk) 02:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. No, there are 228 thousand Google hits for combination "Russian-Georgian war" (see here), and only 12 thousand for "2008 South Ossetia war". Even many Russian commentators consider this to be Russian-Georgian war. For example, Yulia Latynina tells this (an approximate translation): "I want to emphasize: this is Russian-Georgian war. The strike [by Russia] was conducted from two fronts: the Abkhazian and the South Ossetian fronts; approximately 25,000 Russian Army serviceman have been involved and several hundred tanks; rocket strikes have been conducted, and Russian strategic aviation completed sorties..." see here. Biophys (talk) 17:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Since we are going this route, the first Google hits for "russian-georgian war" is the Heritage Foundation. Google search for "south ossetia war" returns far more balanced and diverse sources.Gleb (talk)

Russian-Georgian conflict

Including variants
  • CommentWP:NAME"Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.This is justified by the following principle: The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists. Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject."
google news searches:
758 for georgia-russia-conflict and 1,934 for russia-georgia-conflict.,
136 for georgia-russia-war and 311 for russia-georgia-war.--Tananka (talk) 15:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
as I said, it could be ambigouos, as may refer to other things. Of course it has more google hits-it has a broad meaning (and google hits do not rapresent bla bla...) --TheFEARgod (Ч) 10:20, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Google news hits are relevant because of what they represent, that is, how many articles deal with this specific name. The media ultimately names things nowadays and so their preferred name will likely be the name of some given conflict. That's not to say some later name could be coined, but for now the preferred name is clear Russia-Georgia conflict and variations of that. As to your comment conflict representing something long term this is not necessarily the case. The 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict lasted only a few months. Other examples include the 1978 South Lebanon conflict, the 2001 Indian-Bangladeshi border conflict, and the Hanish Islands conflict. Typically conflict is used to name a limited military engagement as well as longer-term ones that are not part of a constant war. In relative terms this engagement was limited.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:12, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, neither of this articles you put now hasnames that are established in the media, as I see--TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

If as you say we should name the article with what the greatest number of English speakers would easily recognise then we should definatly go with "Russian Invasion of Georgia - 2008" as that is how the public as well as the media views this war, and also how the general public would refer to it. MattUK (talk) 20:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

he may be right. But this proves the media made a mistake--TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

"the media made a mistake" hardly, the media are accurate, only a communist who hates NATO and dislikes the West would think that... oh wait, look at your profile, I wonder why you think the worlds free media made a mistake, but the Russian state controled media hasnt? hmmm... I wonder. MattUK (talk) 13:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

please be civil and avoid personal attacks! --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually it is the most popular I suggest you do a Google news search utilizing quotation marks for Russia-Georgia conflict. There are now nearly 2,100 articles using that phrase. Unless you start counting "conflict in Georgia" or "conflict in South Ossetia" however both have their own problems the latter namely being it does not refer to the general situation there. Conflict in Georgia fails because it is far too vague. So basically those two are not viable alternative and the most widely-used named by far is Russia-Georgia conflict. You may say it includes separatists, but many other conflicts are named only by the nations involved even when groups within one of the countries is also taking part. That's because it is largely seen as them being effectively part of the war effort by that country.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgian-Russian War

Including varients such as Georgian-Russian war, 2008 Georgian-Russian War, Georgian-Russian War (2008), etc.
  • Comment Per naming conventions this would effectively be considered the same title as Russia-Georgia war and so it should probably not be treated as a separate choice. Since the common media order is Russia-Georgia clearly that is the favored variation of this name.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgian War

Including varients such as War in Georgia, 2008 Georgian War, Georgian War (2008), etc.
google news search: 764 for georgia-war and 594 for georgian-war--Tananka (talk) 15:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
but not just because of google hits. It maybe refer to Georgian Civil War--TheFEARgod (Ч) 10:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
ah ah no! Same as Iraq War --TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The media almost exclusivly refers to the Iraq War as the Iraq War, also this is English Speaking Wikipedia, based on the general naming conventions of the of the Anglosphere, I'm sure on the Russian Language Wikipedia (if there is one) it is refered to as the "American/British and coalition forces invasion/liberation of Iraq", or something along those lines. The same as we don't call it the British liberation of the Falklands - 1982, but the Falklands War, in the case of both Iraq and the Falklands we know that we were involved, so our involvement doesnt need to be restated in the title, this being the English Language Wikipedia. On the Russian Wikipedia I'm sure you have already named the the article "The Glorious Russia liberation of the Russian peoples who were enslaved under the evil capitalist democratically elected government of Georgia", or some other drivel along those lines. MattUK (talk) 13:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment Actually Matt UK, the Russian Wikipedia calls it "War in South Ossetia (2008)" but thank you for being biased. Also, in this war, do you claim that you do not know that Russians are involved considering that Russian Peacekeepers were in South Ossetia? Or that Russians live in Ossetia? Ignorance is not an excuse to rename the war to your specific catering needs. As for Georgia being Democratic - don't start, it'll open up another can of worms. Last time I checked Bush didn't kill Kerry in 2004, or imprison Howard Dean, whereas the main opponent of Saakashvili is dead and his supporters are in prison. 64.105.27.214 (talk) 23:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
after a couple of posts I've seen that it seems MattUK's comments become more and more irrelevant and trolling-like. Read some guidelines before involving in controversional discussions please. You may be blocked --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. Two side have been involved. See my justification for title "Russian-Georgian war".Biophys (talk) 17:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. This variant is rather popular (see [1], [2] and [3]) - about as popular as Russian-Georgian War. What makes me think that this version is better is because the alternative one (Russian-Georgian War) fails to mention Abkhazia and SO that are de facto independent countries and that have played a significant role in this war. Furthermore all the conflict took place on de jure Georgian soil so the name like "2008 Georgia War" or "2008 War in Georgia" would be appropriate. Alæxis¿question? 17:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgian Civil War

Including varients such as Georgian civil war, 2008 Georgian Civil War, Georgian Civil War (2008), etc.
There's already Georgian Civil War article. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Conflict in Georgia

Including varients such as Georgian conflict, 2008 Conflict in Georgia, Conflict in Georgia (2008), etc.

Caucasus conflict

Including varients such as Conflict in the Caucasus, 2008 Caucasus conflict, Caucasus conflict (2008), etc.

Russian Invasion of Georgia - 2008

Russia did invade Georgia, that isn't doubted by any of the worlds media, apart from Russias state controlled media, and even they agree that they made "incursions" into Georgian territory, and the 2008 part to differentiate it from when they have attacked Georgia in the past. MattUK (talk) 08:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if this isn't the best title. __meco (talk) 09:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose There is large disagreement over this, since Russia was peacekeeping a de facto independent republic called South Ossetia. This nobody denies. Also, there is disagreement between various media over this matter. Although they made incursions, those were not part of a plan to invade, they were encouraged to do so by Georgian forces abandoning weapons caches and possibly planning subversive operations to blame on the opponent. This can easily be verified through searches. Hopefully there will be some investigative conclusions on this matter and especially that of possible subversive tactics disguised as Russians.--Tananka (talk) 15:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose highly POV-just half of the story--TheFEARgod (Ч) 10:23, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to elaborate and confirm that this is in my opinion the best title. The two breakaway republics are still recognized by the international community to be part of Georgia. However, more importantly has been that Russia went much further than to secure the territory of South Ossetia. They have made substantial incursions into parts of Georgia that have nothing to do with the two disputed regions. __meco (talk) 12:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose Whilst Russia did invade significant parts of Georgia, this is not the only part of the story. The early part of the fighting, the skirmishes which escalated into a war early in the morning of 7 August 2008, are not covered by this title. Greenshed (talk) 23:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Further discussion over the title

Can the title be improved to describe the matter more accurately than the above-mentioned proposals? There should always be room for improvement. eg 2008 Georgian breakaway conflict, Invasion of South Ossetia, Ossetian genocide ...???--Tananka (talk) 02:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

No thank you, your last two suggestions reflect the Russian perspective. Menrunningpast (talk) 02:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
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