Talk:Korean War

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NPOV

This article reads like it was written by Kim Jong Il's slightly less fanatical brother. I would think that such a major event would have a much better wiki. 24.125.19.104 (talk) 01:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)Disinterested Party

The article is an utter joke written by fantastics from the West, its sourced only from rather one-sided studies, and don't provide any balanced view, for instance, they only provide the Chinese loss based on west estamtion, but not include any Chinese estimation for UN loss.

And also, the west fantastics significantly understate their own loss, The total loss for UN is already around 1.3-1.6 million (based on various west sources, S.korean along loss from 1 million to 1.3 million soliders), the total loss of China/NK is around 1 million(base on Chinese estimation) to 1.5 million (US estimation, which claim chinese alone loss 0.9 million).

Here is a less biased casualties table: http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/casualty.htm

Either significantly rewrite the article, or remove it completely, as it is a big joke now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pptv2r2 (talk • contribs)

I can point out one significant problem with the website you provided (other than that it's not a reliable source). It lists the US deaths as 54k; this is an old figure, that includes all US military deaths during the years 1950-1953, including, say, automobile-related deaths in West Germany or training accidents in the US. The reason we don't use the Chinese estimate of US casualties is because it's demonstrably false; numerous independent scholars have examined the US's record of its own wartime casualties, and have verified it. No independent scholars have verified the Chinese records. It's as simple as that. As for the UN casualties, the discrepancy lies with the South Korean figures; sometime in the 80s or 90s, the figure was revised down from in the 800k neighborhood to the figure that's in the infobox right now. Older calculations will probably still have the older 800k number, hence the differing numbers. Parsecboy (talk) 14:29, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Then you need to add different studies on UN total loss as well.

You can not just add studies that over-estimate Chinese total loss only, it almost look like you are intend to compare the maximum estimation for Chinese loss to your minimum estimation for UN loss, it's more of entertaining stuff than serious study, you know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pptv2r2 (talk • contribs) 14:37, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

You may want to read through the archived discussion about casualties, which can be found here. Both the Chinese and US estimates of Chinese casualties are provided, I don't know what you're talking about. The article doesn't use the Chinese estimates of UN casualties because they are demonstrably false. NPOV doesn't require including views that are unquestionably wrong. Parsecboy (talk) 15:33, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

First, lets talk about the UN loss:

Your west source is a joke, how could the american loss in Korea war can be reduced from 54000 to 36000 simply because they miscalulated the place where the guys dead back then? You mean your officials/new reporters back then were just a bunch of utter idiots who could not tell the difference between Europe/America/Asia, could not tell the diffence between KIA in Korea and drunk to death in a strip club in Germany, and then just simply put all the death as life loss in Korea?

Not to mention that the S.Korea could reduced their loss from 1.3 million to as low as under 0.3 million in 90s, what an utter joke, I guess just like the americans,back then, the koreans were also a bunch of fools who could not count any number beyond the total fingers they had.

Rubbish like that keep me from taking your west media rubbish seriously.

Now, lets talk about Chinese loss:

Given the fact your pathetic record on counting your own bodies properly, how could you give any, even remote to true, estimation on the Chinese loss?

You know, I really find its funny that how you can estimate our total loss since you were busy retreating all the time and hardly have any leisure to count anything, not to mention back then you guys could not count, as you have proved.

Anyway, for a less laughable comparison, at least you guys need to remove the US estimation for Chinese loss as well since it is, at the very very least, just as unreliable as Chinese estimation for UN loss.

Btw, I found another problem in the article, the Chinese source(reference #15) provided in the main page mentioned:

"148,000 deaths altogether, among which 114,000 died in combats, incidents, and winterkill, 21,000 died after being hospitalized"

Therefore, the 114,000 should not be considered as KIA, since the number also includes those dead by incidents/winterkill.

Anyway, it is very obviously the wiki article is a laughing stock.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Pptv2r2 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Did you read through the archived discussion to which I linked? What happened with the US casualty figures was a clerical error; the US Government had figures for total deaths during each of those years, not necessarily those who died in the war. Initially, it was mistakenly assumed that those figures were only for war-related casualties, but this was later corrected. Please advance a serious argument in regards to this issue, or don't waste both of our time.

As for Chinese casualties, the article says as much. From the casualties section of the article: "Chinese People's Volunteers suffered 148,000 deaths altogether (among which 114,000 died in combat, incidents, and winterkill, 21,000 died after being hospitalized and 13,000 died from diseases); 380,000 were wounded and 29,000 missing, including 21,400 POWs (of whom 14,000 were sent to Taiwan, 7,110 were repatriated)." It also mentions the Chinese claims about casualties inflicted on the UN forces, including the patently false claim of almost 400k US casualties.

I really don't see what you think is wrong with this article. Perhaps you should state clearly what you think should be changed. Parsecboy (talk) 19:25, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I think I have already made it very clearly:

1. Since in the article you have not mentioned the Chinese estimation of U.S. loss, for the fair of comparison, you should remove the U.S. estimation of Chinese loss as well, since it is just as unreliable.

2. The S.Korea number is obviously way too low, the U.S. estimation, the Chinese/N.Korea estimation are all much higher than that, and acutally S.Korea's own estimation is not consistant with each other, according to the book <<Korea Military History>> written by the Military History Dep. of S.Korea's DoD, the total loss is 227,800 dead, 717,100 wound and 43,500 missing, while you claim there are other sources say the number is way lower, yet a source has not been provided.

Therefore, you should include this around 1 million loss for Korea number in your article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pptv2r2 (talk • contribs) 20:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The common tactics US empolyed in Korea war is using S.Korean troop to fight first, it is rather highly unlikely that the S.Korea's loss is as low as 0.3 million, the number is questionable at best. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pptv2r2 (talk • contribs) 20:33, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The Chinese estimate is included in the article, in the Casualties section. It's not in the infobox because it is demonstrably false. As for the South Korean figures, all I can tell you is that they have been dramatically revised several times since the war, and what's there now is the current estimate. If you have other sourced figures, they should probably be added into the Casualties section. Lastly, it's not my article—it's not anyone's article. We can all make changes as we see fit, provided they are in line with policies like WP:RS and WP:NPOV, and there is consensus to do so. Parsecboy (talk) 22:52, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Er. yeah right. you said 227,800 dead. So that problem has ended. Dead doesn't equal wounded.Kfc18645 talk 15:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

When I say loss I mean casualties which=total dead+total wound+total missing+total captured, etc, since English is not my first language, I prefer to use some rather simple word to discrbie the similar thing. By the way, since current S.Korea's total loss is unsourced, I suggest remove it and use a sourced 980k number instead.

Further Reading

"Cold war hot war: an Australian perspective on the Korean war" by Gavan McCormack. I thought this might be of interest to users here with a bit of spare time as it provides an alternate view on the Korean War. Although the title states that it is an Australian perspective, it largely focuses on the origin of the war (1945-1950) and looks at South Korean and US responsibility/ legitamacy. It also contains anylasis of Australia participation of the war. Just throwing the reference out there if anyone's interested. Iciac (talk) 07:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Lieutenant Baldomero Lopez Image

The image on the page incorrectly identifies Lt. Lopez as being "USA (United States Army) 2nd Lieutenant"

Lt. Lopez was a US Marine and was a First Lieutenant (appointed 16 June, 1950 prior to his deployment to Korea, and prior to Inchon where the picture was taken). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jared WoodyUSA (talk • contribs) 02:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Err....so fix it. You can fix it.Kfc18645 talk 06:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

UN and Communist forces in Belligerents

I strongly object to this. This is POV. It suggests that the UN was fighting communism. The USSR was in the UN. Its not needed information. It makes the article seem anti-communist and therefore is in violation of NPOV. I suggest we remove the UN and communist forces in Belligerents to improve the articles neutrality. Ijanderson977 (talk) 18:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

But the UN forces were indeed fighting. This is a fact, whether you like it or not. However, I am ok with removing the label "Communist forces". Colchicum (talk) 19:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

This was discussed briefly once (the discussion can be found here). I also agree that "Communist" should go, but as Colchicum says, "UN" should stay. The forces there were fighting under the UN banner; despite the fact that both the USSR and China were on the UNSC. The Soviets were abstaining at the time, to protest the disagreement over whether Mao or Chang Kai-Shek would have the 5th seat on the UNSC. Parsecboy (talk) 20:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It is fine to keep "Communist forces". If you want to remove "Communist forces", one should use another definition/word that unites all military forces/countries on the North Korean side. Would that be "Soviet forces"? Biophys (talk) 19:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the need for a label for the countries on the North Korean side. Take Napoleonic Wars for example; it just lists "French Empire and allies". If there must be an overarching label, then it should probably be "North Korea and allies". Parsecboy (talk) 02:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

All the nations fighting on the communist side were communists, they would have proudly told you they were communists, they would have appreciated being labeled as communists and they would have enthusiastically told you that they were fighting for communism. Calling them communists is historically accurate and I'm sure those nations would have no problem with it. Why not call a spade a spade? - Schrandit (talk) 05:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Because they were not defined as a group by it. In much the same way, the UN forces would be defined as "Democratic forces", and many would have enthusiastically told you they were fighting to bring democracy to Korea. I would have to agree that the "North Korea and allies" label would be much more accurate. Iciac (talk) 07:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am), but were some of the countries under "UN" even in the UN at the time? I'm talking about countries such as South Korea, Luxemburg, Greece and Columbia. If they weren't part of the UN at the time, were they specifically fighting under the UN banner? If not, like the "Communist" forces, they should probably be stated under "South Korea and its allies" and the UN forces sublisted under that. Iciac (talk) 22:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I've changed "Communist Forces" to "North Korea and Allies", for a more neutral POV. While the UN label is fine as those countries fought under a UN banner, the nations on the North Korean side never refered to themselves as "Communist Forces". They may have all been communists, but they never formed any alliance called the "Communist Forces", so why should we call them that? Saru (talk) 20:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

or if folks do decide on "communist forces," should not they also include "capitalist forces"? or "imperialist forces"? or.... is this pointing out the obvious impossibility of NPOV and inescapability of POV? Hongkyongnae (talk) 21:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Chinese Intervention

Whether this is written from the PRC perspective is unclear. Taiwan is mentioned as a province of China which is false -or at the very least, as yet undetermined. This should be corrected by mentioning Taiwan in the neutral sense by changing "launching an invasion against Korea and the Chinese province of Taiwan, and carrying out active intervention in other countries in Asia" to "launching an invasion against Korea and carrying out active intervention in Taiwan and in other Asian countries" or simply dropping the Taiwan reference altogether. Thoughts? Jamesbohling (talk) 08:02, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

If you just us the word "Taiwan" (which also could refer to the island of Taiwan) it's doesn't say anything about the political status of Taiwan. So that's probably NPOV. Dre Odz (talk) 14:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)