Talk:Ralph Firman

Irish or British?

There has arisin the question as to Ralph Firman's nationality. In the quick research I've done (google assisted) I've seen conflicting information, such as F1 and GrandPrix.com listing him as British, but PitPass listing him as Irish. What looks most convincing is 4mula1.ro and various forums listing him as having dual citizenship, his dad British, and his mom Irish. The main question still is: What did he race as? If anyone knows if it is possible to look up the driving license records, that would be the answer, but if not, what nationality is Firman, and how should it be listed and represented? -slowpokeiv 02:19, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, per the FIA 2003 Spanish Grand Prix Classification(.pdf), Ralph Firman is IRL (Irish). -slowpokeiv 16:00, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Ralph Firman has dual nationality. This is common with sports people who represent Ireland, as it treats all children and grandchildren of anyone born in Ireland as Irish citizens, eligible for most Irish national teams. Xn4 02:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

You're on a bit of a misconception there, Xn4. It's not up to 'Ireland' to decide the sporting nationality of sportsmen and women: The rules vary according to the sport, as set out by the relevant governing body, not by the country. You may be thinking of rules for obtaining citizenship of a particular country, which do vary from country to country, but which do not wholly define sporting nationality.

In motorsport, for FIA world championships it's the passport nationality that matters, I assume in cases of those holding more than one passport, like Firman and Nico Rosberg, the driver gets to choose. Firman chose to compete under his Irish passport. In other motorsport competitions it is the nationality of the body issuing the racing license that applies. This is now Irish for Firman, although he formerly competed under a British license.

Other sports, like football, do more or less what you describe as the case for Ireland - Under FIFA rules if a national connection can be demonstrated back to at least a single grandparent then a player can choose to play for that nation, giving some people a fairly free choice of 'nationality'!

Some sports have even looser regulations: Residency may be enough, without a change of nationality or any demonstration of ancestral connections.

In the case of Formula One, the current version of Firman's article (as of 10:00 GMT on 3 August 2007) is correct according to the rules of the sport and the conventions of WP:F1. Cheers. 4u1e 09:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no misconception, but I should have added "so they are". - "Ireland... treats all... as Irish citizens, so they are eligible for most Irish national teams." As you say, the sports make their own rules, but a large proportion of Irish citizens live outside Ireland, and many Irish sports people living in Ireland were born in other countries, so a strict definition of Irishness would cause many problems. Xn4 15:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, clearer! ;-) 4u1e 18:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

His licence is Irish, and that is the criterion for the nationality given in the infobox. Only the nationality of the racing licence is shown in the infobox. His dual nationality is referred to in the opening paragraph of the article. Bretonbanquet 14:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

But for much of his career his racing licence was British. As you left it, I found Nationality: Irish misleading, so I have made it currently Irish/previously British, rather than simply one or the other. Xn4 14:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I take your point, but it is solely a Formula One infobox, and at that time he had an Irish licence. The concensus at WPF1 is that we don't ever have more than one flag in the infobox because this has caused a huge (HUGE) amount of problems with several driver articles. Any confusion over nationality and changes in the issuing authority of Firman's licence must be laid out in the article. Bretonbanquet 18:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I still find this misleading. If the word Nationality came under the heading Formula One Racing Career, then perhaps no problem, but it doesn't. Nationality appears in the personal details section of the infobox. If you have had huge (HUGE) problems, isn't it because the template is badly designed and needs to be improved? Xn4 19:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't. The problems are caused by people who argue over what constitutes nationality. The issues you have with the infobox, and the changes you have just made to it, which have not improved it in my opinion, will be referred to the WP, where a concensus will be established. Bretonbanquet 19:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Van Diemen

Firman Sr co-founded Van Diemen with Marcos Ambrose's father, hence the Tasmanian link (Van Diemen's land)