Talk:Jason Todd

Archived

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

External link REMOVED

Even Robins Link removed due to the fact of clicking on the link I was hit by about 20 VIRUSES good job I have McAfee to remove them!!!

Even Robins: Jason Todd —Preceding unsigned comment added by C2fx (talk • contribs) 21:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Spoiler Warning - Still needed?

Is that spoiler at the top, about Jason being the New Red Hood, still needed? I know that the spoiler tag itself is consistently something people argue about, since the question of "When is a spoiler not a spoiler?" is everlasting. With a comic, that is ever evolving, I'd think it would be most applicable at the 'current' level. That is spoilers for Countdown, yes, warn me! Spoilers for the Red Hood, which happened a couple years ago, is no longer really spoiler worthy. Taking this on a case by case basis, do folks still feel that warning is needed for this article? -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 16:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I can't see a spoiler warning, about published material, lasting more that a year, year and a half tops. That is unless the writer or publisher is playing fast and loose with the readers, and stretching out a mystery. - J Greb 16:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Fictional Character history

I've added significantly to this. I feel that this page needed a few choice examples showing Jason's journey from street orphan to Robin to Red Hood.

I'll reference it on Wednesday night. I've got all the issues to hand.

I know it's quite comprehensive - but I don't think its any the worse for that. I can't seem to log in - but could somebody put a piture of the cover of Batman 408 in the post-crisis bit. That's a landmark image for me.

Thx

Sorry - Had loads of problems with formatting of references - I think its sorted now.

I trimmed it down because it was actually too detailed. The article needs to be geared toward the general reader, so it should strike a balance between outlying the basics and being comprehensive. WesleyDodds 03:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I appriciate what you are saying but i think perhaps you underestimate the importance of the Jason Todd character in popular culture.

Jason Todd is one of THE most imporant characters in modern graphical literature. He was Robin - of 'Batman and Robin'. He was the Robin which the American public decided to kill. The death of Robin is one of THE most talked about events in comic book history. The death of Jason Todd impacted upon Batman (perhaps the most important character in modern graphical literature) for 20 years. His recent return has been one of the most talked about events in comic books over the last five years.

Furthermore Jason Todd epitomises the impact of both DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis - in that he has two very difference origins / personalities / careers as Robin due to the first Crisis, and he has returned to life following the second Crisis.

I propose that 'the general reader' would like some information about how that character developed. And I'm sorry - I do not feel that there was too much information in my entry (Perhaps you should read the artcile on Tim Drake to see how much information people would like about a particular Robin's career - I know he has been robin for longer, but frankly his impact in comic book lore is still significantly less that Jason Todd's). The current article offers 540 words for Jason Todd's Post-Crisis career as Robin. My version provided 1550 - hardly excessive (Tim Drake's career as Robin gets over 4100 words).

This is an encyclopedic entry. People who visit this sort of article have a right/want to know which villains Jason came across during his career. They have a right/want to know that he was a successful crimefighter who met the President etc. they have a right/want to know the progression of the character from innocent boy to (possibly) anti-heroic murderer.

My article provided this information - To be honest, when I visited this site I felt that the present article provided the reader with very little information about Jason's career as Robin. The present version is simply not very good.

It uses flowery language - which expresses writers own opinion... "Unlike Grayson or the pre-Crisis Jason, the post-Crisis Jason never blossoms under Batman's tutelage" What the is this supposed to mean to anybody??? Jason never 'blossoms'?? I think perhaps that my article describes Jason's success and failures - helping the reader decide for themseleves whether the character 'blossoms'.

"Jason discovers his mother was not his biological mother" Erm....ok. However, The present article provide no infomration about Jason's parents in the first place. It is vital to his character that his father was a criminal killed by one of Batman's arch foes. This is the essence of Jason's rage - against both crime and Batman. It is vital to show how his murderous tendancies developed over time - this IS Jason's chatacter. But anyway....

The present article also uses some slightly innapropriate language for the sections..."In 1988's "A Death in the Family" storyline" This is not 'Fictional Character history' this is a pubication detail.

I appriciate that your concern is for the interests of the 'general reader'. However, I feel that for the reader of comics since before the present Grant Morrison run (such as those who remember Doug Moench's first run) there is a need for Jason's complete chcarcter history. At present this article is scarcely encyclopedic. To be frank the section on the pre-crisis Jason also needs expanding. This character existed for about four years - a lot happened to the lad.

Basically I propose re-inserting my more detailed entry and seeing whether anybody other than yourself thinks that it puts too much information on this page. I will do this on Monday unless too many people object.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.252.24 (talk • contribs)

There has to be a balance between the details that clearly explain a character, and the fanish devotion that inspires an entire website. In struggling to maintain that balance, we editors often find ourselves in conflict. I believe that's what is happening here. Jason's 'importance' is POV. He was barely mentioned in the original crisis, and only because his return to life was attributed to Superboy-Prime did his return elicit Infinite Crisis attention. We have no idea how important he'll end up being in Countdown, since they change these things on the fly, and we'd be speculating if we were to state anything beyond what has happened. Remember, this article should not be a substitute for reading the comics. Now I do agree that character development, including the predicament with his parentage, should be addressed, however there's no need to make a wholesale change when addressing one situation at a time would be more productive as a fellow editor.

I disagree about 'inappropriate' language in the Death in the Family section. It looks fine to me, and since it links to the main article, were more detail can be read, there's no need to expand it further.

I found your entry overly detailed in that it included many quotes, most of which that did not serve to do more than elaborate on what was already written, and it suffered from poor editing with your non-standard subheaders. Much of the information was useful, and some, if trimmed down to manageable portions, would be useful. I like your elaboration on Catherine Todd, and while the intro paragraph is nice, that information is already in the preceding section, and repetition is unneeded.

I'd like to work with you and see how we could better include information in the article. -- Ipstenu (talk • contribs) 18:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Great! How do you propose we go about this?

"I appriciate what you are saying but i think perhaps you underestimate the importance of the Jason Todd character in popular culture." That's not really the issue; I've made it a point to dig for real-world sources. The issue is the fictional character history. The details of the stories themselves should not be given so much importantance in an article that must br grounded in a real-world perspective. We don't need to recount everything that happened to the character, just the broad strokes. What's important about Jason Todd, broadly, is that he died and people commented on it. WesleyDodds 04:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Is that whats important? Or are the contexts, characters, stories, facts also of some importance too? I'm sorry but I simply can't make any sense of your argument.

Should we sum up the entire Red-Hood saga as - Jason returned from the dead and people commented on it?

Again, I feel the need to explain that just because something happened 20 years ago it is not of less encyclopedic value than that which is happening at the moment. Historic occurances/storylines are every bit as interesting/important to document as present day ones, and should be given equal weighting. I do not mean to patronise, but I would hope that you can understand this concept before removing masive chunks of information from a wikipedia article.

"Should we sum up the entire Red-Hood saga as - Jason returned from the dead and people commented on it?" Yes, pretty much, for the reason that people can (and should) read the comics themselves. We've had problems with overly long plot synopsis on other articles before. Aside from hindering readability for unfamiliar readers, they can sometime verge on violating copyright. WesleyDodds 20:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

"Should we sum up the entire Red-Hood saga as - Jason returned from the dead and people commented on it?" "Yes, pretty much."

Erm ok. Is everybody else happy for this to happen?

Sorry fella, but I don't really think you understand what people use wikipedia for.

The career of Jason Todd ('post-crisis'), in publication terms, lasted from November '86 to Jan 89' - or (approximately) 23 issues of Batman and 23 issues of Detective Comics + the four part series 'Batman The Cult' (I've excluded Years One and Two). This character actualy appeared about 30 issues - including major story arcs such as 'Batman: the Cult', 'Death in the Family', 'Ten Nights of The Beast' and the 'Legends' + 'Millennium' cross-overs. I wrote about 1200 words summing this up. At the moment there is less than 600 (over one third of which are concerned with the 4 issues which make up 'A Death in the family').

Your favoured 600 words (for 30+ issues of character development) is comparable to the amount of attention given to the plot of All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder - which currently stands at 5 issues and the amount of character history given to Batmite.

Just 9 issues in and Countdown (DC Comics) gets nearly 2,500 words on plot alone.

Stretching to just 13 issues (less than one year of comics), I notice you have not edited down the nearly 500 words written about Winick's Red Hood story.

Ace the Bat-Hound gets more character history than is presently given to Jason Todd's history prior to 'A Death In The Family'.

I take your point about reading comics and not Wikipedia. However, in no way does my writing replace the reading of 30+ issues of comics. In fact I do not provide any more than basic plot outlines for two issues (Batman #410/411 - Jason's first case) and descriptions of one or two panels from other issues. Maybe I partially reveal the ending of some stories in order to illustrate Jason's murderous motivation. This hardly 'verges on violating copyright' - in fact after 20 years I doubt it would even require a spoiler notice???

Anyway...I recently read 'Under the Hood'. This was a return to comics for me after several years. The return of Jason Todd sparked an interest in me. After reading 'Under The hood' I wanted to quicly remind myself who Jason Todd was - where he came from and mostly why Winick chose to portray him as he did. I found your prefered article was insufficient for purpose.

However, I will not put my factually accurate recording of Jason Todd's career as Robin back on this page, as I strongly suspect that you will simply take it off again. I think that it is a shame that people with preconcieved ideas as to what is 'important' to users of this page should just come in and do this. Just because you are more interested in the now than the history of comics, please don't presume that everybody else it. This article is by far the weaker for your 'editing'.

I think you making a few assumptions here. First of all, I really hated the whole "let's bring Jason Todd back" deal Winick has done. It's fairly ridiculous. Thus I am quite emphaticlaly not "more interested in the now than the history of comics". My edits to Batman also demonstrate that. Furthermore my edits on this page are not personal; I have nothing against you. What I am trying to convey is that there's a general way to write fiction and particularly comics that should be utilized on Wikipedia. Look at Superman or Emperor Palpatine for excellent articles on featured characters. My point all along has been "we don't need excessive detail" about the stories. Certainly any issue citations you could provide would be appreciated, bit we don't need a point-by-point in-story development of the character, which is fancruft. The amount of words devoted to a topic does not indicate importance; notability and verifiability do. WesleyDodds 21:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The difference between Superman and Jason Todd though is the sheer number of pages devoted to information about the character. For example look at Superman storylines, History of Superman, List of Superman enemies, Superman character and cast, Powers and abilities of Superman, Superman in popular culture, Clark Kent, List of supporting characters in Superman, The Last Son Of Krypton and this is just the start (I'm sure the same is true for your star wars character). Other than Robin (comics) this is the only page for information on Jason Todd - it either needs opening up or expanding.

Those article and categories exist because Superman is insanely notable. Various aspects of the character have been discussed in academia, the media, and popular culture. Thus, there is a reason such detail exists: because people have written about it. In comparison, Jason Todd isn't as notable. There's still out-of-universe sources to work with, but their abundance pales in comparision to the likes of Superman or Batman. Most out-of-universe coverage of Jason Todd deals with the call-in vote. Regardless, we would keep the details of the stories themselves to an acceptable length for readability purposes. WesleyDodds 02:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I provided a 100% verifiable account of Jason Todds career as Robin, and if you do not think the story of his decent into 'murder' is notable, then I guess that is your opinion.

Yes, the story's notable in regards to the character, but the details are unnecessary. WesleyDodds 02:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, that’s your opinion and, of course, you’re welcome to it. I personally find it amazing that you think it is in no way notable that Jason's Todd's father was killed by Two-Face - and that Jason resented Batman for keeping this information from him - and that Jason repeatedly called for Two-Face's demise. This was the foundation of his relationship with Batman from day one. Of zero note according to you. He, and both his biological parents were killed by costumed criminals - is this not remotly notable when we consider his current attitude towards Batman and Gotham's costumed criminals? No - I guess not. In fact if you read the notes I make below, I am able to construct a valid argument as to the notability of each story aspect which was referenced in the contribution which you deemed unworthy for your article.

"Those article and categories exist because Superman is insanely notable. Various aspects of the character have been discussed in academia, the media, and popular culture. Thus, there is a reason such detail exists: because people have written about it."

"Jason Todd isn't as notable. There's still out-of-universe sources to work with, but their abundance pales in comparision to the likes of Superman or Batman. Most out-of-universe coverage of Jason Todd deals with the call-in vote."

Let me just get this straight - we shouldn't write about Jason Todd, because nobody has written about him already? And if anybody does write about him we should remove it, straight away, from this article??? If you consider Jason Todd to be such an un-noteworthy character why are you even here? (High importance???)

Anyway, I digress. I think you need to take stock as to why you decided to carry out a complete wholesale edit (removal) of my contribution – whilst you let all the stuff about Red hood, etc. stand. This was, it seems to me, a knee-jerk reaction to seeing a large amount of new information on a page which you have taken ownership of.

It also seems to me that it is time for you to stand-down from your self appointed position of Wikipedia dictator. I can assure you that your ‘work’ is not universally appreciated (I see that just a couple of days ago somebody else was compelled to revert one of your changes). This page has been created for the people, and it is supposed to be maintained by the people. It has not been created for you, and it is not supposed to be maintained by you (alone). I recommend that you read the Wikipedia article on Wikipedia:Ownership of articles and take stock of the advice it gives for when one feels the way you appear to about this article.

That's pretty much all I have to say about Jason Todd. I feel that it’s a shame that I can't share the knowledge I have about this character with others - especially those who might be interested after reading ‘Red Hood’ but who find that they are unable to obtain all the back issues required to build a broader understanding of the character. I simply feel powerless to add anything to this article as I don't want to enter into an edit war with you. I find your approach to be intimidating and against Wikipedia policy:

“When making large scale removals of content, particularly content contributed by one editor, it is important to consider whether a desirable result could be obtained by working with the editor, instead of against him or her”

I do appreciate your advice about formatting, and suggestion that I use less direct quotes.

Pre / Post Crisis + Robin / Red Hood

I propose that Jason Todd's fictional history be split into two sections...

Pre and Post Crisis.

Whilst both are called Jason todd and both became Robin - these two characters have very different origins, careers, personalities etc.

See Alfred Pennyworth for precedent.

I further propose that the history of the Post Crisis Jason be divded as below:

Origin
Robin: The Boy Wonder
Death in the family
Retun from the Grave
Red Hood

Jason's first assignmant as Robin

I feel that this is a vitally important moment in the history of Jason Todd.

This is how I could describe the event:

During Todd’s first night as Robin he deduces that Two-Face is set to commit a crime. Jason plays a significant part in preventing this crime. Jason also prevents Two-Face from endangering an innocent – by voluntarily taking her place as a hostage. After his escape, Todd learns that Harvey Dent had killed his father and that Batman had been keeping this information from him. This enrages Todd[14]. The next day Batman and Robin catch up with Two Face. After knocking Dent unconscious Batman instructs Todd to keep his distance. However, Jason starts strangling the villain, exclaiming “I’ll kill you…kill you…”[15] As a consequence of this Two-Face escapes. Batman and Robin talk things out, Todd figures out Two-Face’s next crime, and (following a blunder by Batman) Todd actually saves Dent’s life. After capturing Two-Face both Batman and Robin seem content that Jason has worked his problems out[16].

What do you think? I think this shows the lad to be a 'blossoming' hero - his deductive skills were evident, his selflessness and his abilities to back Batman up (after Batman blundered). It also shows that from the begining he had 'issues'.

An Impetuous Hero

I feel that at present the artcile is overtly derogatory about Todd's careers as Robin. I feel this needs to be countered by a note of his successes.

Todd is (to a degree) a successful crime fighter. During his time as Robin, the post-crisis incarnation of Jason Todd encounters and aids Batman in defeating a collection of Gotham’s costumed villains - including Two Face, Magpie, the Joker, the Penguin, Catwoman, the Scarecrow, the Mad Hatter and the Mime. Jason also rescues Batman when Gotham city is temporally overrun by Deacon Blackfire. Although Jason’s impetuousness foils a drugs bust which Dick Grayson (as Nightwing) had been working on, Grayson is impressed enough by the lad to give him his blessings - and a ‘teen-wonder’ sized Robin costume. Jason Todd (as Robin) even meets the president of America when Batman briefs Ronald Reagon on the KGBeast threat.

I concur that Jason was impetuous. I also feel that it is important to note that Batman was aware of this in his new Robin: I also wanted to provide a specific reference for this - to show a lack of IMO - Therefore, in order to provide a general personality protrait, I wrote...

However, Jason is independent minded and overconfident – which in turn leads to impetuousness and disobedience. As Batman expresses; “No matter what I say Robin likes to go it on his own whenever he gets the chance. The trouble is that he’s nowhere near as good as he thinks he is”.

I wanted to provide a specific example of a time where Jason was impetuous - and yet still succesful as a crime fighter. I feel that this is a sign of his independence from Batman - an independence that eventually sees him assume the identity of Red hood. I also feel the paragraph below provides a key moment between Alfred and Batman - again important to the present time dynamics between Bruce and Jason. Note the similarty to the conversation (Between Bruce and Alfred) below and that in Winick's 'Under The Hood'(When Alfred says to Batman..."The son has not surpassed the father").

One example of impetuous disobedience results in Jason single-handedly capturing the villain Jonathon Crane (a.k.a. the Scarecrow). On this occasion Batman gives Robin strict instructions to locate Crane and call in when he has done so. Instead Jason renders the Scarecrow immobile and takes the unconscious Crane to the Batcave. Batman berates Todd for his actions. Following this, Alfred questions Batman as to why he doesn’t want Todd to go after villains such as Crane by himself, asking; “Afraid the lad will reach a point where he won’t need you any longer?” To which Batman answers; “Perhaps”.

An Angry Young Man

Following this account of Jason's (flawed) successes as a crime-fighter, I felt it was pertinent to address the 'issues' which came to dominate the character. These 'issues' are the key to the present Red Hood scenario. It is very important to realise that Jason wasn't inept ('failed to bloosom) - he was pretty good in fact - He was just wrong for the role of Robin (far too angry).

Despite his successes Todd does not work out all his anger/violence issues. For example, on his second meeting with Two-Face, once again Todd’s anger gets the better of him - and as a consequence the villain temporarily escapes - again[30]. According to a narrative told from the point of view of Alfred Pennyworth, Bruce Wayne first realised that Jason was not Dick Grayson when Todd shattered the collarbone of a drug-dealing pimp - Todd expressed regret that they were not able to get any information from him, but also expressed a belief that the pimp got what he deserved[31].

A Vengeful Murderer?

Absolutly VITAL to understanding the Jason Todd character, is an appriciation that even before he died and came back he showed some murderous tendancies. We therefore need to know, accuratly and with proper referenced example how Jason's decline came about.

Also it is important to realise that Jason Todd's character evolved during the 'Dark Knight' era. That is a time when Batman texts were showing him to be a bit tougher than prviously. Basically, despite what is said in 'Under the Hood' - Jason was present whilst Batman was 'killing' villains.

Basically in the text below I wanted to illustrate the progression from witnessing/being aware that Batman kills to suggesting the they leave a man to die, to almost beating a man to death, to justifying murder, to commiting murder.

''When Alfred attempts to assure Todd that the fear Batman instils in criminals is more effective than actual violence; Jason responds by stating that no matter how much the criminals fear Batman, they know he won't kill them[32]. However, during Jason's time as Robin, Batman is seemingly/partially responsible for the death of two major criminals. When he traps the KGBeast inside an underground vault Batman appears to believe that he is leaving the Russian assassin to die[33] (it is not revealed that the KGBeast actually escaped until after Jason's death). Todd is also present when Batman beats Deacon Blackfire to a bloody pulp - conscious that this would bring about the Deacon's ‘fatal mistake’. When Jason suggests that they should try to save Blackfire from his murderous minions, Batman declines[34]. The notion that it is acceptable for heroes to bring about the death of criminals grows within Jason's mind.

(Massively important - Jason was young and impressionable. His mentor allowed / caused the death of a villain/s in his presence.)

As stated above, on his first case Todd attempts to strangle Harvey Dent – whilst stating; “I’ll kill you…kill you…”. On his second meeting with Two-Face Todd argues that Batman should not free Dent from a death-trap. Todd states; "We should let him die, Batman."[35].

After becoming enraged that a knife-murderer, who Batman had captured, was able to escape justice due to missing evidence, Jason starts a fight with a pimp - a brawl which Batman was ultimately forced to stop. Of this fight Batman asks Todd; “What were you trying to do, kill him?” To which Todd responds; “Would it’ve been that big of a loss if I had?” [36]. After the knife-murderer was killed by one of his victim’s sisters, Todd expresses a belief that this killing might not have been legal, but was ‘right’[37].''

(This shows Todd's willingness to kill - and also his opinion of murderous vigilantism - the relevance of which almost goes without saying.)

Some time later Jason independently pursues a rapist who evades criminal charges due to his father's status as a diplomat. When Batman eventually catches up to his young ward it was to find that the rapist was dead – having ‘fallen’ from the balcony of his high-rise apartment. Batman had by this point become so concerned about Todd’s apparent tendencies that he was compelled to ask Jason whether the dead man had fallen or was pushed – Jason responds; “I guess I spooked him. He slipped” [38].

(I think the image originally provided here of Robin looking over the falling Philippe is highly significant. this was a landmark moment in comics history. Batman's partner seemingly killed out of pure vengance. Surely we can't just ignore this?)

You may be interested to note that (other than the two-face references) every cited source in the paragraphs above came from comics written by Jim Starlin.

During Jason Todd's formative years Batman 'kills' in (Starlin written)
Batman The Cult
Ten Nights of The Beast
Jason nearly kills pimp and justifies murder in the (Starlin written)'Dumpster Murders' story arch.
Jason 'Kills' in the (Starlin written) 'Diplomats Son' arch.

I believe that Jim Starlin conciously plotted the decent of Jason Todd into murderousness - including his presence at the Blackfire beating. I also consider that each of the citations I give are key moments in that plot.

A Death in the Family

I think this connects the previous sections with the Death in the Familty scetion - and also provides a greater detail as to what was going on in Jason's life at the time....

Shortly after the death of the diplomat's son Jason is taken off active Robin duty by Bruce Wayne - who is concerned that the boy is 'losing it' having become 'resentful' and 'reckless'. Alrfed Pennyworth and Wayne together surmise that the boy is not coping with his role as Robin and the deaths of his parents.

Around this time Jason discovers that Catherine Todd was not his biological mother, and runs away to find the woman who gave birth to him.

The bit above just provides a bit more information and is worded a bit better than - 'his mother was not his mother'.

TMI?

Fictional Character history:

Current Jason Todd Word count post-death: 1250 (and rising)
Current Jason Todd Word count pre-death: 659 (static)

I'm afraid I genuinly feel that people are overly obsessed with that which is going on at the moment - to the expense of historical accounts. I personally am much more interested in the history of comics (hey guys - just because it happened a few years ago, it's still equally important, weighting anyone?). I feel that this is where the present article is lacking. Furthermore, I feel to do a clean sweep and remove my relatively comprehensive account of the history of Jason Todd (as Robin)- before seeing whether such an account proves popular with other users is wrong.

I notice that my editing never removed any information - merely provided a greater understanding of the context. Other editors has since come in and removed a great deal of accurate/encyclopedic data. I suspect a case of Ownership here.

Jason Todd's complete career as Robin as I would express it....

I have re-edited Jason's career as Robin as such:

During Todd’s first night as Robin he deduces that Two-Face is set to commit a crime, and plays a significant part in preventing it. Jason also prevents Two-Face from endangering an innocent – by voluntarily taking her place as a hostage. After his escape, Todd learns that Harvey Dent had killed his father and that Batman had been keeping this information from him. This enrages Todd. The next day Batman and Robin catch up with Two Face. After knocking Dent unconscious Batman instructs Todd to keep his distance. However, Jason starts strangling the villain, exclaiming “I’ll kill you…kill you…”. As a consequence of this Two-Face escapes. Batman and Robin talk things out, Todd figures out Two-Face’s next crime, and (following a blunder by Batman) Todd actually saves Dent’s life. After capturing Two-Face both Batman and Robin seem content that Jason has worked his problems out.

Following this Todd becomes a relatively successful crime fighter. He encounters and aids Batman in defeating a collection of Gotham’s costumed villains - including Magpie, the Joker, the Penguin, Catwoman, the Scarecrow, the Mad Hatter and the Mime. Jason also rescues Batman when Gotham city is temporally overrun by Deacon Blackfire. Although Jason’s impetuousness foils a drugs bust which Dick Grayson (as Nightwing) had been working on, Grayson is impressed enough by the lad to gift him a ‘teen-wonder’ sized Robin costume. Jason Todd (as Robin) even meets the president of America. However, Jason is independent minded and overconfident – which in turn leads to impetuousness and disobedience. Batman recognises this himself expressing; “No matter what I say Robin likes to go it on his own whenever he gets the chance. The trouble is that he’s nowhere near as good as he thinks he is.” One example of impetuous disobedience results in Jason single-handedly capturing the villain Jonathon Crane (a.k.a. the Scarecrow). On this occasion Batman gives Robin strict instructions to locate Crane and call in when he has done so. Instead Jason renders the Scarecrow immobile and takes him to the Batcave. Batman berates Todd for his actions. Following this Batman indicates that he does not wish Robin to tackle major criminals alone, as he is afraid the lad will reach a point where he won’t need mentoring any longer.

Despite his successes Todd does not work out all his anger/violence issues. Alfred Pennyworth considers that Bruce Wayne first realised that Jason was not Dick Grayson when Todd shattered the collarbone of a drug-dealing pimp - Todd expressed regret that they were not able to get any information from him, but also expressed a belief that the pimp got what he deserved. Alfred attempts to assure Todd that the fear Batman instils is more effective than violence. Jason counters this by stating that although criminals fear Batman, they know he won't kill them. However, during Jason's time as Robin, his mentor is seemingly/partially responsible for the death of two major criminals - The KGBeast and Deacon Blackfire (it is not revealed that the KGBeast actually escaped death until after Jason's own demise). The notion that it is acceptable for heroes to bring about the death of criminals grows within Jason's mind.

On his second meeting with Two-Face Todd argues that Batman should not free Dent from a death-trap, stating; "We should let him die, Batman.". On an other occasion Jason violently attacks a pimp; Batman asks Todd if he had been trying to kill the pimp – to which Todd responds; “Would it’ve been that big of a loss if I had?”. After a knife-murderer, who escaped justice due to a lack of evidence, was killed by vengeful vigilante, Todd expresses a belief that this killing might not have been legal but was ‘right’. Some time later, Jason independently pursues a rapist who evades criminal charges due to his father's status as a diplomat. When Batman eventually catches up to his young ward he finds the rapist dead – having ‘fallen’ from the balcony of his high-rise apartment. Batman had by this point become so concerned about Todd’s apparent tendencies that he was compelled to ask Jason whether he had killed the man – Jason denied the charge.

That's down to less than 700 words. Which I think is reasonable for the entire career of one of the Robins. I would appriciate any feedback.

THIS NEEDS TO GO ON THE Main page. - Nick

Concerning Behind the scenes

While messageboard info is considered invalid, the information concerning Jason Todd's conceived Earth-Two counterpart is mentioned as being planned in an interview from the hardcover printing of Infinite Crisis. How does one go about linking to a source that isn't online, but printed in a book? 71.120.233.114 09:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Source it, just don't provide a link. Ichormosquito 06:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

One thing I think should be mentioned with why Jason was killed: Some fans just didn't like the idea of a Robin sidekick at all. They saw the vote in as their best opportunity toward returning Batman to loner status. Having a Robin die on Batman would discourage him from picking up another Robin sidekick. 76.170.109.79 07:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

There's no way to verify that. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Would it be possible to get some context for the O'Neil quote? As it stands now, the "regrets his decision" line implies that he's changed his mind and no longer thinks "It would be a really sleazy stunt to bring him back." However the citation gives a quote where he simply says he would have kept his mouth shut. Kept his mouth shut regarding what, precisely? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.79.10.209 (talk) 04:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Was just looking at that line in confusion myself. What is it that the quote is meant to indicate? What "regret" is it talking about? Does he regret killing Todd? Does he regret saying it would be sleazy to bring him back? Does he regret saying anything on the subject at all, for people to quote later? Out of context it could mean any or none of the above.D1Puck1T (talk) 20:38, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Woefully inadequate

Must say I agree that this articles summation of Jason Todd's post-crisis career is woefully inadequate.

However, I also consider that the pre-crisis Jason is somewhat ignored within this article. Jason first appeared in Feb 1983, and the reboot origin did not occur until June '87. That's over four years - longer than the post-crisis incarnation lasted.

First of all the article is inaccurate and contradictory. In one instance we are informed that Jason first appears in Batman #357 (March 1983)- and then in the body text we are told he first appears in Detective comics 524.

It is notable that the death of Todd's parents occurred in Tec 526 - which was an over sized anniversary issue celebrating batman's 500th appearance in the comic. However the information here in just wrong. Jason did not appear as Robin in that issue - but appeared in a costume of his own design.

It seems that the whole article needs to be looked at by somebody who is interested enough in the character to get the basic facts straight.

Furthermore, this article refers to Killer Croc (who killed Jason's parents) only in passing - in brackets even. This story actually took many issues to come to ahead and warrants some mention. It should also be mentioned that Dick Grayson assumed responsibility for the Todd's death - given that he had asked them to follow Croc. In fact Commissioner Gordon also came out and blamed Grayson (Robin); "You brought them into this, Robin. It's on your head". Significant!

This article makes no reference to the interesting storyline whereby the 'Child Welfare Bureau' suspect that Bruce Wayne is abusing Jason (due to his bruising and tiredness, ect.) and take the boy into custody.

The Nocturna saga - a story which took, I would guess, about 15 issues to resolve - in which Jason is adopted by a mysterious female villain. At first he agrees to the adoption only to help 'crack the case', however Jason does come to consider Nocturna to be his mother. Not mentioned at all.

The Catwoman years. After her rehabilitation Jason felt that Selina Kyle was replacing him as Batman's partner (essentially he was right). During this time Jason teamed up with Harvey Bullock - with whom he developed a close bond.

Bullock worked out that this Robin was not the original - and even suspected he might be the natural son of Nocturna. Gordon reveals that he also knows that Jason is not the original Robin - but considers that Batman must have his reasons for not saying anything. None of this is even hinted at.

This article would be woefully inadequate for a second string character. However, the character of Jason Todd has been around (in one form or another) for 25 years (next month?). The character of Jason Todd has shaped the Batman mythos for all that time. The character of Jason Todd is presently at the very centre of the DCU. Come on - at least get it right! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.185.90 (talk) 10:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:RedRobin.jpg

Image:RedRobin.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 10:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Robin shrine.jpg

Image:Robin shrine.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

What the...?

"This version wasn't far removed from the original Dick Grayson character. He was an orphan, a former circus acrobat and pretty much the all american "Leave it to Beaver" kid."

This whole article needs a serious looking at. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.68.244 (talk) 09:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Created By?

I'm not sure that there should be a second entry for the 'red hood' persona.

Should there also be a 'created by' for the post-crisis Jason; the 'Nightwing' Jason; the 'Red Robin' Jason; the Jason that wore blue jeans; the Jason that wore green trousers, etc?

Check Roy Harper - Speedy, Arsnal, Red Arrow - one character one point of creation. (I would make the same argument for Dick Grayson also.)

The second 'creators' might have created a new secret identity (note 'Robin' and 'Nightwing' have artcles as seperate identities) but they did not create Jason Todd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.240.253 (talk) 16:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required

This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 16:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Batman forever

This movie HAS nothing to do with Jaosn Todd...abosolutely NOTHING. He is never mentioned and the origin story is just an altered version of Dick grayson's circus origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.67.178.213 (talk) 22:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Superpowers

Didnt Jason Todd at some point have the ability to turn into a some wierd creature that eat people in Nightwing? i see no mention of it here but im sure it happened. --- 88.108.148.10 (talk) 17:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)