Talk:Prostitution in Thailand

This article is very offensive

I find that this article is very offensive to people of Thailand. Wikipedia should not be a place like tabloid to promote this kind of story. There is prostitution everywhere in the world. Why should prostitution in Thailand be the only one that is singled out? dhanakorn 02 May 2005

Prostitution can be described per country. Living in Thailand for over 6 years, I know it is a serious problem here. So I feel it like prostitution in ANY country in the world deserves seperate attention. I as a foreigner am approached at least a couple of times a week. I speak Thai, and every taxidriver and tuktuk drivers first question is .... want a lady, want to go massage. I am usually avoiding Sukhumvit and Silom areas. But I live in Huay Kwang, near Ratchada. Which is as you know one of the centers of Thai prostitution for the Thai male. Having visited some places there I know the clientele is mostly Hi-so Thais. So you cannot deny really it is a fact of life in Thailand. and not just Thailand. In most Asian countries from Japan (students) to India it is the same! Waerth 08:07, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Prostitution is a major (but not primary) issue in Thailand, especially in term of tourism industry. prostitution business concept itself is even controversial in its legality and in term of ethics. I believe it is valid to point of this aspect, but please do so in NOV and refrian from shifting the encyclopedia article into guide-to-sex-tourism-in-thailand. --underexpose 00:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I tried to help balance in the intro to the article but unfortunately it has been edited out as POV. If anything it was neutral and the editor didnt even have the balls to challenge this or even post a one line comment... so I guess it is culturally offense to a THAI again and I APPOLOGISE TO ALL THAI PEOPLE WHO MAY BE OFFENDED - go to history and look at the article before Jan 27 and it will be better! Regards Mattjs 12:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Compare with 14 JAN 2006 as that was a good article! MY APPOLOGIES AGAIN! Mattjs 12:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thailand isn't singled out. There are other prostitution in "country" articles. Prostitution in China is actually an FA. Yialanliu (talk) 01:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't take offense

Thailand is not being singled out; it was the subject of a long and detailed explanation on the main "Prostitution" page and I felt that it was worth preserving (with some modifications, as it's a topic I'm familiar with) but moving to it's own page.

Such topics as the prostitution trade in the US (where it's illegal, with the minor exception of Nevada), Amsterdam and other European RLDs, etc are also, at least to my mind, worthy of being split out to their own articles with at least a basic explanation of how the trade tends to operate there. Just my opinion, of course.

See also Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands, Prostitution_in_New_Zealand, Prostitution_in_Nevada, for example.

There is a Featured Article on Prostitution in the People's Republic of China.Rlevse 12:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed unsourced POV statement

Removed the following unsourced POV statement from the article: "Thailand is considered one of the major destinations of sex tourists because of the increasing number of children brought into the sex industry." Sorry, this statement is POV at worst and an off the cuff uneducated guess at best. If anything the Thai government has done much to DECREASE the number of children trafficed by the sex industry. Also it does not follow that an increase in child prostitutes is the reason that Thailand is a sex tourist destination. Only a VERY VERY small percentage of sex tourists are pedophiles. Change the words "sex tourists" in the removed line to "English teachers" and you can quickly see how POV the statement is. Anyhow... -Oscar Arias 16:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Blame game?

Please read this statement, at the start of the article: "Prostitution has existed in Thailand for a long time, and was not introduced by westerners despite popular myths. As early as the 16th and 17th centuries, prostitution was described in reports by sailors visiting Thailand (then called Siam). Thailand has gained notoriety in the west as a sex tourism destination since the Vietnam war, although most prostitutes in Thailand serve Thai males."

I've come across this attitude, where Western (presumably) writers try to absolve themselves of any responsibility for social problems across the globe. This is not just not NPOV, but an attempt to "blame" Thai society for a serious problem it faces.

It overlooks the geo-political reality of the region, and the forces that gave sex-work in Thailand a big boost in recent decades. From the US herself Dr Cleo Odzer, who did her PhD on Patpong (and whose own life story is quite something, but that's another story, see 'Goa Freaks') makes this point well when she writes: "Though the Vietnam war may have boosted Patpong into the entertainmentindustry, Thailand's reputation as a sex paradise took off on its own at the war's end. Germany arranged cheap charter flights. Holland organized sextours. As Taiwan and Japan grew prosperous, their males flew in too. Many Americans from the war chose not to go home. The saying was that there were no MIAs in Vietnam; in reality they were all MIBs--Mischiefing In Bangkok." (See http://desires.com/1.1/Features/patpong.html )

Most sex-workers in most parts of the globe provide their services to local males. That is not the only issue here. Without the big money coming in from overseas (guestimates exist about how much of the GPD this contributes to in Thailand), the phenomenon of prostitution in Thailand would have probably not grown to such an extent.

In sum, this 'we are not to blame' attitude is surely no NPOV, and let the facts be stated. --fredericknoronha 19:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. Obviously there would be less prostitution in Thailand if there were no sex tourists, but the vast majority of Thai prostitutes cater to Thais. What other facts do you want to state? Henry^Flower 15:06, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

What evidence do you have that most male Thais use Prostitution services? Or even female Thais? Prostitution business in Thailand florished because of the poverty, THEY HAVE NO CHOICE, they have to find money and the only way they could do it is by selling themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.144.212.5 (talk) 20:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Estimates

I removed this paragraph, as it is unsourced and the estimate given differs dramatically from the one we have sourced.

According to one such estimate, there are as many as 130,000 people, both men and women, employed in the sex trade.

AxelBoldt 17:42, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

The article currently cites a newspaper report saying there are 2.8 million sex workers. Even though there is a citation it is not necessarily accurate. The book Guns, Girls, Gambling and Ganja published in 1998 analyses data from a number of sources and puts the figure at 200,000. I think this is a much more reliable estimate. I don't have the book with me at the moment, but perhaps somebody could enter the details from it and properly cite it. Davidreid 00:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed the number of 2.8 million and especially the number of 800,000 underage sex workers is so ludicrous it instantly invalidates the whole article. As estimates vary so much but ARE readily avaiable as a source, I suggest to list several varying estimates. This will at least inform the reader that estimates vary a lot and nobody really knows for sure. It could also be included that a key factor is the question 'who actually qualifies' as a sex worker; standards about who counts as a sex worker can vary greatly, too, between surveys and research papers. Lookpedkeeray 13:51, 01 August 2007 (UTC)

Age of consent - 15 or 18?

Is it true that the age of consent for a non-sex worker is 15? If so, then how did rock star Dag of band Big Ass get into trouble for having sex with that 17 year old girl? Could somebody please clarify.

I will try and explain as far as I understand it: Yeah, the age of consent is 15 but the age at which you can work in a bar and/or exchange sex services for money, (in another Thai law or statute), is apparantly 18 and last I was there (2004) it had just gone up to 20. So I wouldn't make a habit of sleeping with anyone under 20 if I were you. Make sense? Note also that many western countries including Australia and the UK now have child sex tourism laws on the books which means for example that an Australian probably couldn't sleep with a 15 year old in Thailand even if he or she wanted to as the age of consent back here is 16 and you could potentially get arrested when you get home. (Although the constitionality of some of these extra-territroial laws is in question (ultra-vires and all that).

Its always a good idea to know the law before you experiment. (I can even quote you the statistics and estimate the risk of HIV transmission for regular coitus in Thailand ~1 in 200,000 or so.) So remember, always use a (new) condom, treat her or him with respect, know the law, and play nice. Mattjs 17:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Remeber the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC).

I just checked for Australia and what I say above is true: the age is 16 here. In the UK the law seems to be drafted somewhat differently: it appears to be a child sex offence seemingly if it is an offence in the country in which you commit it and in the UK in which case the age may therefore be considered to be the lessor of the two i.e. 15 in this case. Interestingly in Australia if you marry someone in another country who is under 16 and it is permitted in that country at that age to do so (as many do) you will not have committed an offence. (I guess that way if you are a Moslem you can marry and bring back your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th 13 year old bride home with you! :-)) Any tourist would therefore be wise to initially check the (child) sex tourism laws of their own country for a starting and potentially limiting point before even considering what it may be in Thailand or elsewhere...

Interestingly some countries have ridiculously low ages of consent like 12 or 13 or none at all and so must therefore obviously not be signatories to the CRC above. :-( Mattjs 18:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Finding on Pimps and Prostitution

In Amsterdam one group's survey found that 50% of the women turn over all their earnings to their pimp, and that many of the girls were brought to the red light district by human traffickers (see the appropriate wikipedia article). I'm sure in Thailand women are exploited in the same manner. - unsigned

The article we are discussing says that as many as 800,000 minors under the age of 18 are employed as prostitutes. Links to a page encouraging such socially destructive behaviour should not be on Wikipedia. Maybe a discussion as to the implications of judging people by their own standard and culture would be in order. - unsigned

Human rights

Although Wikipedia does include articles which deal primarily with human trafficking, child prostitution, etc, I feel as thought this article reads a little like a travel magazine. I'd like to see more detail in relation to the standard of living the average Thai prostitute enjoys, as well as some figures regarding violence against sex workers in the country (or Bangkok, in particular). I've seen quite a bit in the media lately of allegations of corruption within the police and other public authorities, for example. Could anybody here shed some light on those issues? --Alexis 06:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes one thing that concerns me is the (at leaat until recently and perhaps still) high degree of prejudice against HIV sufferers in Thailand despite the Governments valiant efforts against transmission (and one of if not the worlds leader - at least until recently it seems). One of the consequences of this it seems is the tenedecy to obscure and cover up the reality of for example sex workers having acquired HIV with other secondary diseases like pneumonia etc. being listed as the cause of death to save the face and shame of the Thai family which has agreat deal of importance in Thai society. I can't help but wondering how many sex workers go home to die with HIV with particular reference to those who work in the "sex tourism" trade with "farang" or foriegners. I think any expert in the field would be welcome to post links to articles and statistics in this reagrd - lets balance the unfortunate but inevitable "Tour Guide" nature of the article with links to some detailed and serious analysis. Any postgrads, PhDs, or Acadmics care to contribute. Thanks. Mattjs 08:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

intro edits

I hope no one minds my intro edits. I thought the bit about Westerners introducing prostitution that was edited out was ok myself, although it was pure rumour it was introduced as same and did give an inkling of one of the many complex and contradictory Thai perspectives and popular beliefs. Because of the complex and culturally/temporally variable sexual mores involved a mention of versismilar western mores (from the same time) not spoken about amounst polite western society (today or yesterday but nevertheless acted upon behind closed doors at that time) is surely in order to present a much maligned Thailand in a more objective, factual, and historical light. Mattjs 11:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Without this the intro would be but an ineffective one or two lines! And the Europe discussion would I think look out of place without the rumor lead in. And since we are talking about the "land of smiles" a tongue in cheek lead in is appropriate since we are discussing prositution embedded in that particular culture. It is probably the Thai if not the Asian way of doing things that will help put at ease if not eliminate the many Thais who visit here and find the article otherwise particularly offensive! Try to find elsewhere in Wikipedia where these European sexual mores (indeed hypocracies) are as amply expounded and precisely detailed as I have explained them and I am sure that you will not as there is no Prostitution in historical Europe article. Mattjs 11:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

It does read very well even if I do say so myself! Please leave it in as it results in providing in one foul swoop all of the relevant links to polygamy, slavery, aristocracy, mistress, menage a trois, polite society, (and remember the many wifes of past Kings of Thailand), and finaly by virtue of this the financial factors which are so fundamental to what goes on with Western Sex Tourism type Prostitution in Thailand today. Oh how the Western rich - however moderately so - like their mistresses! Mattjs 12:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Tone

I've added the {{tone}} template because at times the article seems to be acting as a guidebook or directory, for example giving the addresses of places where cheap sexual services can be found. This needs to be dealt with. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. I first felt the need for "censor" some sections, but after some thinking I realised that I would just get reverted. Wikipedia seems to function as a form of guide book in many ways which aren't that honorable, not just like in this article, but for example in giving the exact internet adresses to download different porn movies etc. --Konstantin 17:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed the first intro line as usless and POV in line with your own edits... It adds nothing but implies that prostitution is longer lived in Thailand than other place which it is not neither is it cited. :-) Mattjs 14:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

On one hand I agree with you but on another I don't: as the article is about "short-time rented-wifes" in Thailand readers may well want and desire the locations information and it is relevant to those readers that do. What Wikipedia policies can you cite to justify your scalpel? As you appear to be female I percieve that your actions are very POV!? You would be better off changing your handle or inviting a male or neutral perhaps "lady-boy" college to perform the edits for you? :-) Mattjs 14:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I have improved and re-wikified the intro. Only question is the ordering of the rephrasing in the first sentence i.e. the position of "16th and 17th centuries" etc. Mattjs 09:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Position in society and extent of prostitution

For an article on Prostitution in Thailand there is very little explanation of local culture and custom!? For example no mention of polygamic traditions etc. the King of Thailand's equivalent of a harem etc. etc., its a shame I had covered some of this in my earlier but now editied out intro... This alone could serve to improve to tone of the article. Problem with Thailand is Prositution and attitudes to sex are extremely contradictory: by turns permissive and conservative at the same time through diffrent classes and segments of society as a whole including gender and I wonder about chinese influences as I know there are some Buddhist ones also... information like this unfortunately very hard to document and cite Mattjs 10:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I am going to read through some of the referenced material and improve on this section particularly reference/footnote 2 which is quite a detailed academic article online on Thai sexual mores and culture that looks quite interesting and will compliment my detailed studies of Thailand. ;-) Mattjs 12:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The Photo

Objections:

1. The individual in the photo is goddam ugly!
2. The individual in the photo is (I estimate with better than 90-95% certainty as a qualified expert) a "lady-boy" - and whilst I have no objections whatsoever per se - I merely think it should be labeled accurately! (laughing)

If no one has satisfactory objections to my objections I will add "lady-boy" to the image label. But if you still do object:

1. You need to have your head examined!
2. You have not been to Thailand and so therefore are not qualified to object. Mattjs 17:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Shit I think I recognize the bar! It looks like Kings Corner, certainly the bar is very reminiscent of the style of gogo bars in the Patpong area. There are less than a handful amoungst them that still have lady-boys freely mixed with women on stage: Kings Corner and possibly one or two nearby. Mattjs 17:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

(laughing) In fact I am sure wikipedia's own rules require contents to the clear and accurate so there can really be no objections! (laughing agian)! Mattjs 18:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

"Some bars employ kathoey ("ladyboys") exclusively, catering to male customers. Many of these look amazingly like women, especially to the untrained eye." well not this one boys!! HAHAHA Mattjs 18:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Mattjs' comments above are mostly unpleasant, offensive, and pointless, and go against many Wikipedia policies and guidelines. If he continues to post this kind of stuff here (and worse in user's Talk pages), he is very likely to be blocked from editing. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you actually think it is not a "ladyboy"?? 220.240.58.190 07:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Did you actually read what I wrote? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean the comment on your edit "tidying, MoSing"? Lets wait see what the author/poster of the photo has to say. Mattjs 19:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I mean what I said above, to which the anon was responding. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I was asked by Mattjs what the nature of the photo is. Without entering this debate, I will say that yes, I took the photo when I was in Bangkok in 2002. I understand why there are assumptions that this is a ladyboy, as 'its' face looks quite manly. With that said, I talked to 'it' for period of time, and can testify that with the tiny bikini thong it was wearing, there was absolutely no substance underneath - hence no male equipment. Granted, that does not mean it was not once a man - however, I would argue that in proper usage a 'lady-boy' refers to a man, who is still fully equipped, who simply dresses himself as a women and markets himself to others as a women (sometimes explicitly declaring he has male equipment, sometimes not). That is, a 'lady-boy'still has a package - this person did not have a package. Therefore it is arguably wrong to label it as a lady-boy. GREGorof → ^talk 18:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

OK so it didn't have a package so perhaps the "ladyboy" adjective doesnt apply, so it was perhaps what we would call a transvestite or perhaps in more contemporary lingo a "transgender". Would you agree that the individual concerned is or was formerly a man with a package?? (Note that the package may still be there but neatly hidden internally or behind as such prostitutes are often want to do when offering oral services whilst continuing to parade themsleves as now female and without said former package.) I continue to argue that this was clearly: (A) "transvestite" (cross-dresser) or (B) "transgender" (cross-dressing having had the package removed and gender re-assigned) person and should not therefore be represented as otherwise in an Encyclopedia and in accordance with wikipedia. Mattjs 19:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The caption currently reads "A dancer at a go-go bar along Patpong, in Bangkok." I fail to understand how this caption, implicitly or explicitly, states it is not a lady boy - it is an ambigous statement: A dancer (of course) can be a man, a women, a transvestite, or a "lady-boy" - it could arguably even be a cartoon character, or a peacock. This picture is most certainly not being "represented as otherwise" as you assert. GREGorof → ^talk 23:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hell, i just want to see a decent looking photo (with or without any packages) if it was a good looking tranny I wouldnt be objecting! So if you want to post an ugly one that clearly isn't a native born female I am going to ask for that adjective. Mattjs 19:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Unworthy of reply. GREGorof → ^talk 23:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Give it a rest. Your opinions as to the attractiveness or otherwise of the subject, etc., are of no interest to anyone here, and are irrelevant to the article. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Bottom line is this dispute is of no consequence to the article. GREGorof → ^talk 23:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

At least the picture is adjacent to the section where "ladyboys" and such like are discussed and immediately above the male prostitution section. Since no one else cares I will leave it at that but if you get grabbed in the crotch by an apparantly female looking creature or find a surprise package upon returning with it to your hotel you might find photos like this one similarly disingenius if not devious. But it seems I might be up against people who probably don't distinguish hence on the balance the photo was probably chosen for this very reason anyway. You should look at the photos in Kathoey and of the Thai ladyboy band Venus Flytrap external link that I added there. Mattjs 14:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah well, at least I can say I tried! Signing off on this one! Regards, Mattjs 14:40, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Dating Thai Prostitutes

There is a very large element of men going to Thailand and irrationally falling in love with a prostitute they met there. There is no denying this phenomenon, yet there is only a single line about it. I feel this is not enough to reflect the scale of it and I have restored the link to that article, which I feel is a necessary and useful resource for readers. I will also embellish that paragraph later tonight by adding a few more lines when I can think how to word it.--172.159.131.132

I agree with this poster although somone reverted it immediatelty afterwards. It is a part of the "Prostitution in Thailand" phenomena and I think at least as a compromise it could go into the external links list OK? Mattjs 18:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh come on; men fall in love with prostitutes? In what sense is this a distinctive feature of prostitution in Thailand? Literature (and history) is fall of this throughout the world. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 18:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect Mel, it is a huge phenomenon. Foreign remittances to Thailand are made up in a large part by foolish men sending money to Bar Girls. It is massive and you are in denial if you can't see that. I'm not arguing with you BTW and I say this with the greatest respect. Please let me add a few lines to that section and I really do feel that the article I want to link to is one of the few realistic assessments of the bar scene there.--172.159.131.132

Sending money to someone is not the same as being in love with them; it's original research to say or assume that is is. (And it doesn't strengthen your case to use cod-psychoanalytical diagnoses of another editor.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mel Etitis (talk • contribs) 23:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC).

Well, the article is largely about men who form relationships with Thai prostitutes and the consequences, not about the financial transaction... and so, I maintain that it is a pertinent, well written and wholly suitable article worthy of at least a reference in a section that is very thin on content and I'm bewildered by your objection. Does anyone else have any comments about this?--172.159.131.132

This article is about Thai prostitutes, hence its title, not about men who form relationships with them. This article is already over-long — almost unhealthily so, it sometimes seems to me. It could anyway do with more ideas; I'll take it to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society, law, and sex. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 12:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Mel, I do agree with your comment about "over-length" of the article. However with reference to the following: "Oh come one; men fall in love with prostitutes? In what sense is this a distinctive feature of prostitution in Thailand? Literature (and history) is fall of this throughout the world. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 18:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)" I would like to argue the following without citations (yet!).

• (A) I believe that there is a greater preponderance of man meets prostitute and marries in the third world with third world prostitutes particularly given the nature of third world - poor survival - type prostitution which has a significantly different character to prostitution in the West. See next point.
• (B) Significant cultural differences, prohibitons (i.e. lack thereof) and attitudes particularly in Thailand including long standing polygamic traditions in the _ONLY_ country in the world which was never "colonized" by a colonial power (and subsequently "christianicized" c.f. Philippines). (Not quite unique "Buddhist" influences here of and in themsleves but contrarywise in conjunction with the historical conditions, facts and factors above, then yes UNIQUE.) See next point.
• (C) I hazard a guess, in fact I "believe", that this phenomena occurs more so in Thailand than even in other Third World places including the Philippines, and Domincan Republic (including for "non-colonized", "non-christianiciszed and "Buddhist" reasons above). (It might be worth looking at any prostitution articles for these and other countries to see if the same issue comes up there also: whether or not, and to what extent.) With a great deal of research - if such socciological statistics are available which may be unlikely - some of these points could then be substantiated:
  • (D) I feel confident that Thailand would show more of said phenonmena than the other countries mentioned above.
  • (E) I feel absolutely certain that Thailand would show more of said phenomena than in the West in general.
• (F) I suggested a suitable compromise of including the anonomous contributors contribution as a link in the external links/references rather than in the body of the text. Would this satisfy all or most parties (since wikipedia is a majoritarian system admittedly with a constitution in the form of a set of editorial (POV/NPOV... etc) rules)?

Note my earnest intent here to be a resolver of controvery and conflicts rather than a protagonist Mel. Take your time to read through my arguments in detail, and address it point by point if you disagree until you feel entirely happy with it, feel free to continue on my talkback page and I am happy to continue the discussion by email also. I do agree clearly with the poster though for the argued (though admittedly arguable) reasons given (until substantiating research and references can be sourced). Regards, Mattjs 13:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

First, the trouble is that, as you say, your comments are uncited, and consist solely of your suppositions and feelings. Secondly, even if it were the case theat the phenomenon were more common inThailand, that would be an argument for mentioning that in an article on men falling in love with prostitutes (and no, before you ask, I don't think that there should be a spearate article on that).

Uncited granted. "suppositions and feelings" - No: rather "working hypotheses" that merely need to be substantiated as thay based on sigificant experience and analysis of Thai culture, mores, and prostitution in Thailand with particular reference to the Western "Sex Tourism" side of the local polygamist, mistress, "mia noi", and sex worker phenomena. They lack only the statistical evidence to back them up my friend but I doubt if anyone is even doing any research into this topic. Any that may be taking place are probably Thai academmics and printed in Thai Journals I presume. I wish we had more Thai sociologists here. You might note my earlier post requesting more info about the local HIV side of the Prostitution equation in Thailand. Would you similarly argue that a discussion of the HIV ramifications and related local cultural issues for Thai sex workers would be out of place in the current article!? Mattjs 16:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

"I believe", "I hazard a guess, in fact I 'believe'", "I feel confident", "I feel absolutely certain"... Suppositions and feelings. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 17:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Well we can agree to disagree then: quote any scientist - even Einstein as he enaged in his "thought experiments" - and he or she will use exactly the same expressions whilst working inductively though an hypothesis. You still haven't read Hume on Causation have you? Anyway I have other fish to fry.... been starting up The Weather Makers so if you want to excercise your editing skills Mel then please come over and help where you are more needed and will be eminently more useful... Regards, Mattjs 18:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I teach Hume, and the philosophy of science, and thought experiments have nothing to do with statements like "I feel confident"., which I don't recall Enistein ever making. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 18:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

What on earth does Hume or Einstein have to do with prostitution in Thailand? Can we stay on topic please? This discussion page is supposed to be about the article. It is not for you to flount your own over inflated ego.

"God does not play dice with the world!" Mattjs 19:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

And that's relevant because...? --Mel Etitis (Talk) 19:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Its relevant because you are taking it all so personally it is getting to the point that I may need to go up the ladder... as for the quote: "God (ed: "I believe", "I hazard a guess, in fact I 'believe'", "I feel confident", "I feel absolutely certain"...) does not play dice with the world!" Mattjs 19:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

First, I'm not taking it personally, nor am I showing any signs of doing so. Secondly, inserting your choice of words into a quotation doesn't make it support your point. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 10:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

What does this have to do with my offer to embellish this section, or the link to a relevant article? Does anyone else have any thoughts, other than these this pair, who only seem interested in trying to get the better of each other? --172.159.131.132

If you read the discussion, you'd see that it concerns the relevance of and need for what you're suggesting. I say that it shouldn't be added, and I've given my reasons. If you think that I'm wrong, please say why. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 10:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I vote for adding this "dating" thing. We should put some citation needed tag behind it, and that's it. I've heard about this "dating" thing from Hungarian fellows who have been living in Thailand, and from a lot of web pages (yeah, I know, not reliable source). If anyone can come up with an academic evidence, which shows the phenomenon doesn't exist, we should remove it. -( zslevi )

No Proof

there's no vandalism. Theere's just no proof or evidence for the info that was deleted. and the few sources that are used are nto even academic. It is just all made up —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.116.10.16 (talk • contribs).

Some thoughts on Thai 'prostitution'

Thai culture’s approach to the emotional and sensual is very different to the West’s, especially English speaking countries, with initial examples of culture shock including the views down Walking Street in Pattaya or Sukhumvit soi 4 in Bangkok and their rich flux of people and possibilities, complemented by the luxuriously hot and sultry climate. There’s a continuity with ordinary life that mystifies Thais as to what Westerners’ inhibitions can possibly be; unhappiness and repression exists in the bars and nightclubs of the West rather than beyond it, young people struggling badly to meet each other and even to make any friends at all in their alienated materialistic environment. Their society gives little idea about how emotional life works and the numbers of stressed, dejected faces in the Western nightclub is sickening, the whole situation for them abusive.

Western thought is articulated and compartmentalized whereas much older Indian-Asian thought is holistic and understated, with cultivation of the individual built into the social structure, encompassing rather than constraining it; many Asian and African cultures have an unbounded character with for instance words, activities and buildings blended into each other. Western socialization by contrast brings the naivety of foregrounded ideas, self-consciousness, insular immaturity and a lack of confidence that feeds on its own cloistered lies about the world- in England it’s really hard even to feel an adult at all. Instead of American and Western freedom and self-expression located more on the surface of society as concepts to insist on and be reminded about, above repressive less stated norms beneath, Thai freedom is inbuilt on deeper levels with strong village community and Dionysian interconnection, procuring personal development indirectly and naturally.

Apollonian Western presuppositional norms being more intellectually than intuitively derived define only themselves and are thus antagonistic towards all others, whereas Dionysian Asian norms being more abstract and less conceptual typically have the civilized qualities of compatibility and universality. Western norms are aligned with rationale and intellectual account, and the accompanying fear that they fail to provide true grounding- they encompass a narrow and hence repressive and ultimately completely false range of experience. By contrast toleration is fundamental to Buddhism and similarly Hindu temples may have not only their own deities but side alters to the Virgin Mary, Mohammed or others: despite their fundamental normative character both acknowledge other systems of thought as means to similar not rival insights and are central expressions of more holistic understanding. The absence of non-Christian images in a church or images in a mosque reflects the prominence of restrictive arbitrary dogma and principles and closed systems of thought. Cultural norms and religions are beyond rational reconciliation and fundamental to one’s particular outlook but Dharmic Asian religions and their emphasis on what is not inherently embrace all possibilities in their non-confrontational and pacifist, intuitively interconnected natures.

Many Asian and black African cultures confound articulated thought and make concentration in the usual Western sense difficult, but bring a mature non-specific focus and sophistication. In the Thai language for instance vowels keep cutting in, defying the articulating consonants- the very sound is open and light without seeking arbitrary closure and the castles in the sky of lost mental processes; likewise there are constant obstacles on pavements blocking route and vision, skytrain stations obscuring views down the road and eye level machinery at checkouts once again bouncing the attention back, hinting at interconnection in the mind rather than things transparently themselves. Typical of these cultures Thailand has an unreality about it, a fundamental disbelief in material life per se- the signs and lights of businesses for instance don't quite look like they mean it and everywhere is a slightly carefree attitude, reflecting Buddhist notions of impermanence rather than attachment to the ever-changing material world. Rational Apollonian is integrated into intuitive Dionysian, logic issuing from the inward sensuous riot rather than imposed from without; light but deep and rich colours are also used- elegance plus seething inward interest in the static.

Western Christianity’s gross denial of sexuality, integral to its offensive concept of suffering at the basis of life, contrasts with Asian images of Gods having sex with each other or mortals and complex phallic, vaginal and erotic imagery located in temples and routinely throughout society. In the Western medieval there was somewhat better understanding of the links between sex and the spiritual but modernity’s rationality and overwhelming shift to discursive thought has hindered the awareness of God and the unity integral to our relationship with the world. An example of the lack of disjunction between Thai religion and sexuality are Buddha altars with candles and incense burning found in and around massage parlours or go-go bars, which all wai to as they pass; everywhere retains a sense of quiet, the whole beneath the surface, providing a harmony free of confused principles or simplistic, fixed conceptualisation about life: everything is possible, because everything in life really is.

Sex is hidden beneath life’s surface as the absolute or transcendent is hidden within the relative or material, but this relationship has unity in one being dependent on the other: sex is for-itself Dionysian activity distinct from relative means to ends activity but actually underlies it as all action is subject-subject rather than subject-object in nature, and there is no abstractedly instrumental activity. Hence though sex cannot be foregrounded it should hardly be repressed or continuous with disgrace or disapproval, being the foundation of reality and human life, well-being and happiness. The horrific error of Christian and Islamic Apollonian cultures is the initial normative presupposition of sex’s wrongfulness when it is the essence of truth, light and the mature mind: they assume everything should be transparent on the surface when truth must reside under it because of its ultimately unstatable nature and transcendent reference. Only from this basis should articulated thought arise, not from capricious, self-generating Apollonian principles and normative systems imposed after sex and truth are lost.

Thai culture normalizes sexuality in its fullness and boundlessness, providing tremendous inner energy and vigour: the scope and range of possibility embraced also suggests it’s a country of the future, with huge potential and a durable base for massive development. The sheer power of the culture’s openness, limitlessness and compass of thought as centred on the understanding of sexuality is phenomenal, with self-consciousness and opprobrium unknown in the parlours, bars’ high quality erotic shows, nude dancers, and availability of genuine relationships with fabulously beautiful girls. The bars and shows, especially those attracting the most beautiful girls, are enormously sophisticated, embracing the rich complexity of possibilities and requirements of personal relations; the men look to the girls and their power and choice, often tremendously confident and accomplished, super-cool, in touch with their sexuality yet imperturbably demure, and very observant with anyone’s movements and expressions counting, real on-edge stuff. Likewise in the shows the greatest relish and satisfaction is taken in sexual expression and being watched and admired, really into it, writhing on beds, using all kinds of gear, and sometimes having a bash at Christianity for instance routines with feet washing or strapped on phalluses under nuns cloaks; the dispatch, candour and proficiency is unforgettable, and everything taking place behind a thick sultry intoxicating gauze, in the world but fabulously not of it, providing some of the most important and fantastic of all culture shock.

Once you know them girls talk with openness about sex, the giving of oneself in sex being much less a barrier or compromise as its unity with life is maintained at a high level; sexual matters arising in conversation that in the West would be deeply problematic are dealt with easily and ungratuitously- they have sex not cluelessly talk about it. Many girls also are excellent in bed with good skills and knowing what they like, while alive to the importance of long term relations- it’s a place to meet a few and then marry one. There’s much to gain and few places offer such opportunity and scope for self-development, the maturity, authority and freedom here underlining just how infantile and backward a place like England is. There’s little prostitution here, the relations between people not being broken down into categories but retaining their natural subtle blending. If the man and his life are well organized and he treats a girl well he’ll be treated likewise, this being the only reason the scene works so well: every girl looks for a man who’s got ahead in the world with the money to look after her, and it’s important she always takes some especially if he’s from a more developed economy, though she’s unlikely to count it, even look at it or not take it graciously. The affluent man is more attractive- wear a good shirt, trousers, shoes and expensive watch, and book into a comfortable mid-range hotel; a good physique will also add much to your credentials.

The bargirls can be watched deciding who to talk to and who’re the more attractive propositions as protectors and providers: they won’t meet the man or will make their excuses if there’s anything about him they dislike or he makes mistakes. He needs to be with it and once a girl agrees to leave with him, expects him to be her boyfriend and treat her as the Goddess she is: always take her to a good restaurant and for instance other bars, shows, pool hall, bowling, massage or event. Unless it didn’t work well, he must of course see only her from that bar for as long as she dances there, all as with only one massage girl from a parlour, showing due commitment, justifying her and her standing in others’ eyes and avoiding affecting her friendships with other girls. Thai girls are a real phenomenon- here has the highest proportions of beautiful and extremely beautiful women in the world, with their personalities endowed with an extraordinary and disarming lift and allure: Thai culture is feminized in its poise, grace and watchfulness, with rounded language sounds, holistic thought and girls put on pedestals like nowhere else, dressing in beautiful sexy clothes. Women are behind successful men, the world evolving because of the movement towards them and the divine they embody, and Thai culture’s remarkable strength out of sensuality provides conditions for the huge Pattaya building projects driven by the girls: men will do anything for them.

The Thais readily converse- to go to any bar and talk and play games with someone, them responding in a human way to seeing you alone and being pleased to meet you, is such a contrast to the reserved and bitching, worried attitudes at an English bar, everyone too afraid to say a thing. The hostility, snootiness and whatever sick and ludicrous barriers there are between them shows the extent of the lost of their very humanity, regarding such socializing as too forward or at best a curious novelty- life a novelty. It can’t be underlined enough how gross and offensive the English social normative background is- people go to the same bar for 20 years, notice each other there over all that time, never exchange a single word and think that’s normal; coming from such psychosis and perversion the impact of these places can be life-changing.

The liberated bar scene and presence of completely genuine girls to meet however is something many Westerners have difficulty handling, their response being sometimes to make a fool of themselves- against all manners they'll dance on the stage with the girls or be obscene, with confusion and helplessness on their face; also revealing are the men filling Pattaya nightclubs, getting drunk and totally wasting their time when there are beautiful girls to meet across the street in the bars- bargirls routinely see Westerners as crazy. Also happy hours at outdoor bars can be popular with Western expatriates: the rowdiness, badmouthing and fights that break out, aggravated by an underlying fear of and hence contempt for the culture they’re in, particularly from the English, is shocking- the Thais with their courtesy and refinement are appalled and it only highlights the differing levels of civilization. Also instead of all speaking quietly as do the Thais, so each can hear their own conversations undisturbed, their unbelievable attitude is for each to shout above the rest: they simply bring their culture with them and want desperately to think it’s superior- the mindlessness of savages and hooligans in an atmosphere of antagonism and violence lying just below the surface. They’ll even stare in jealousy and hatred at you all as in an English bar, a pathetic strategy inviting a fight, because you’re talking to your girl and her friends at the next table- and this may be at Nana Plaza where there are many hundreds of girls to meet, yet at least in their present mind frames they’re so spineless and ineffectual they haven’t got it in them to charm any one of them. Moreover whereas the view of the park on Sukhumvit Road may include dignified groups practicing tai chi while others fly kites, British parks see belligerent skate-boarding, strong larger, bad language, resentment and fear. And once up above soi 4 was a giant hoarding of a beautiful woman looking concerned with a man kissing the side of her face and smiling reassuringly, underneath reading ‘The power of gentleness’- romance doesn't occupy such a place in the West.

Also Thais’ use of mobile phones on the skytrain or subway is sparing, often with a hand to cover the mouth or moving to a wall, showing respect for others’ presence. Westerners using not just phones but all manner of ridiculous equipment attached to their heads discuss at volume their work, life and whatever rubbish, thinking how clever and important they are; the English language even spoken quietly sounds like the speakers are having to try hard, whereas Thai naturally sounds discreet and calm. There are guards positioned at all stations and even in underground walkways, everything being civilized, safe and upstanding without chance for creeps or drunks to invade- no confused ideas about delinquents' rights are entertained or shocking conduct excused as individuality. Hualampong station is a good example of the quiet simmering intelligence, contrasting with its scattering of Westerners with their childish skimpy clothes and aggressive stance, trying hard to be positive in a culture already providing the assurance and clarity they’re looking for: thought needs founding on holistic Dionysian fundamentals and attempts to stamp a foregrounded rational order on reality are contrived and subject to revision. There are also orderly procedures on the trains, with more movement than necessary around discouraged, people vacating bunks themselves in time for clearing bedding, and designated guards responsible for each carriage. Moreover there’s more fresh food and the 7-11 shops sell little chocolate and only in small sizes, not the huge arrays of juvenile indulgence: the West’s high obesity rates reflect its profligacy and obscene consumption of the majority of the world’s resources.

The world is losing much with postmodernity and the bevelling of all cultures, perhaps not in underlying ways but at least superficially: encroaching Western expectations, distractions and showiness have meant Thailand isn’t as potent and devastating an experience as in the mid ‘90s- even the music and tone of the bars less cheerful, melody obliterated by driving rhythms as materialism obliterates genuine life concerns. There’s been a increase in low appeal shows and American dance tables in bars to bring in more people from the simplistic horde driven democratic West, in place of great maturity, inner complexity and quality atmosphere where you could better watch, think and approach a girl. Rationality has been abstracted from its proper use and corrupted as false aims have arisen, as similarly with parlours in the past being well organized for good Dionysian sex now more interested in appearances, for instance using soap instead of oil: sex is inwardly not outwardly focussed but Westerners’ skewed and repressive cultures resituate their attention in ways bad even for small minds. Thailand in the past had a society somewhat more inwardly focussed and refined, with a quieter environment with more foliage and less Westernization, and the Thais need only to properly invest in their incredible culture not alter it. It remains however one of the world’s top few most powerful with pure and unmatched perspectives on sensuality, allowing people whoever they are and whatever their orientation a unique fullness of self-expression.

Revised 6th May 08 Sean McHugh 02Sean McHugh 02 (talk) 05:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

mia noi, sexual mores, and polygamy

These are two words I wish to see continue to be contained within the article. The first is now confied to a quote but I will live with that and this leads us to the naturally to the second: most of the comments in this discussion page relate to it --- take a look!!! mia noi which means "minor wife" relates to an isolated (never colonized and therefore westernized and christianized) Thailand polygamist tradition right up into modern times (for the rich of course) and two words relate intimately therefore to an objective understanding of sexual relations and norms and customs (mores again) and therefore Prostitution in Thailand.

If I find these words edited out again I will agressively and bluntly edit them back in again with a vengence and editors will feel my wrath in prosecuting the interests of wikpedian mores of NPOV!!! 122.148.173.37 (talk) 17:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

In the same vein a link to polygamy is also a requirement for the article (and again I dont care where it is or how it is phrased or where it is) it should be in there. (Not uncoincidentally western editors who have absolutely no cultural or traditional memory of it would never think to include it!) 122.148.173.37 (talk) 23:04, 20 April 2008 (UTC)