Talk:Vril

Video?

What is the deal with that "video link" after the last paragraph?

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• Talk:Vril Society

Dispute

Sorry, is there anything factual in the "Vril Society" chapter?

The existence of the Vril Society, or Luminous Lodge is rather controversial,

maybe OK

with no documented activities until 1915.

and the documented activities in 1915 have been what? And where are they doumented?

It is said to have been founded by Russian magician and metaphysician G. I. Gurdjieff.

Said by whom? Any evidence?

The Vril Society was founded to explore the origins of the Aryan race.

It's existence is disputed, it's founder is disputed, there are no documented activitivies, but at least the target of research is perfectly clear? Heavens!

Some people argue that the society never existed, and that associated tales are fiction.

There isn't much argueing. When someone puts up a website, claiming the existance of the secret Poo-a-Boo society, in generall not much effort goes into argueing whether it really exists.

The Society allegedly taught exercises in concentration designed to awaken the forces of Vril.

Maybe OK

Members of the Vril Society are said to have included Adolf Hitler, Alfred Rosenberg, Heinrich Himmler, Hermann Göring and Hitler's personal physician Dr. Theodor Morell?.

Is there the tiniest bit of evidence for this extraordinary claim?

Pjacobi 17:25, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Can you read german? If so review

• Peter Bahn, Heiner Gehring: Der Vril-Mythos, ISBN 3930243032
• Edward Bulwer-Lytton: Das kommende Geschlecht, ISBN 3423127201

the provided refrences. If not, you can read Nazi mysticism. I expect you to at least research the information provided if your dispute is to be considered legitimate. [[User:Sam Spade|Thomas Jefferson for President]] 17:54, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I must have missed pressing the "Save Page" button. I'll try to re-summarizte my arguments.

• Das kommende Geschlecht is a work of fiction.
• Peter Bahn and Heiner Gehring are no historians or in any other way a credible source, look at their other books
• Whereas the link to the Thule Society is well documented in historical literature, absolutely nothing can be found in standard works covering the Third Reich and Hitler about the Vril Society.
• The part of Nazi mysticism covering "Vril" is just a rehash of this article and should be deleted too.
• There is no sense to document invented, fictional history in an encyclopedia.

Pjacobi 01:14, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm not saying I know any more than any others on the truth of this Vril Society. However, it is *obvious* from any source that this is a so-called "secret society." Now, what is the nature of a "secret society?" It's secret! And especially when relating to a society such as this, with limited membership - claimed to be an "inner circle" of the Thule Society (which is definitely real, but also shrouded in secrecy to a certain extent) - and generally existing, if it indeed did - shrouded in shadows and secrecy. And even existing for a limited time only - quite a long time ago by todays standards. It wouldn't be a stretch to acknowledge that such a society may have existed, but that the facts and details of it, unfortunately were lost due to the obvious secrecy involved. I'll stay out of the debate concerning details, but I do not find it unlikely that it did exist. What was the *nature* of it, though, is another matter entirely. - A-ixemy 20:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the dispute header if I don't hear something shortly. Sam [Spade] 22:12, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As no new evidence for the Nazi-Vril link emerged, my idea is somewhat different: I'll remove the "Vril Society" section, the Nazi mysticism wikilink, the "dubious weblinks" and clarify the introduction sentence. --Pjacobi 01:08, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ok, so maybe we'll just revert war, and have the article protected, since you apparently don't care to research, nor communicate effectively. Sam [Spade] 01:28, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No way. I'm much too bored about this topic to find an edit war an option. If you don't see what's wrong here, the Wikipedia will have to live this absurd article until someone comes who cares more.

I'll invest some more sentences to appeal to your logic:

• Das kommende Geschlecht is a work of fiction.
  • I've said it above, but it can't be said often enough. If there is a small minority which held that Stargate is not a mere work of fiction, but should be takes as historic account, would we be obliged to rewrrite the Old Egypt pages of the Wikipedia?
• Das kommende Geschlecht is not only a work of fiction, it also predates Nazism by about a century. So no Nazi-Vril link there.
• I've read my fair share of books about Nazisam and Hitler, including those which spell out the Thule Society link and those illuminating the connection to Germanic Paganism. I've also read more than enough about Neo Nazis, including books from Friedrich-Wilhelm Haack, who is a sect and occultism expert. There is not a single mentioning of the Nazi-Vril connection in all those books.
• Heiner Gehring is by all accounts an author of quack books, who writes about anything, which may be sensationalist enough to sell his books, eg. "Versklavte Gehirne. Bewusstseinskontrolle und Verhaltensbeeinflussung", "Abenteuer Innere Erde. Über die Theorie, dass unsere Erde innen hohl sei", "Im Vollbad der Bosheiten. Mind-Control und die Illusion einer schönen neuen Welt".

Summarizing: The Nazi-Vril link is far fetched by such an amount, that reporting it without pointing this caveat, is desinformation. --Pjacobi 21:14, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK, so point it out then. Sam [Spade] 00:32, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My preferred formulation will depend on one and half more point. Regarding the sentences:

[...} with no documented activities until 1915. It is said to have been founded by Russian magician and metaphysician G. I. Gurdjieff.

1. Do you have any source, other than the Bahn/Gehring for these points?
2. What are the "documented activities" in 1915?

TIA Pjacobi 01:14, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have no clue, I didn't write that part, and no nothing about it outside of this article. My knowledge on this subject is entirely related to the book (Vril: The Power of the Coming Race), and modern Nazi ideas about Hitler riding in a space ship w lizardvolk. Sam [Spade] 16:37, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I made some edits RE: your comments, can we remove the disapute header now? Sam [Spade] 16:41, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your action. That should be good enough for now, I removed the dispute header already. There is a (very small) faction of german Neo-Nazis involved with occultism. When I see new reports on these, I'll doublecheck if any Vril is involved. As I said, in +-1990 literature I didn't read anything like this. --Pjacobi 17:58, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OH, this isn't at all popular w Germans (they usually find it absurd and perhaps even offensive), rather its is S American and Indian Nazi occultists, as well as new age nutjobs around the world (esp. USA and UK) who enjoy this kind of thing. Sam [Spade] 03:00, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Disputed again

An anonymous editor has contributed quite a lot of claims, without giving it sources, and stating them as facts [1].

Is anybody willing to search sources for all these extraordinary claims ("working levitation machine" ...) or should we simple revert to the prior version?

Pjacobi 20:01, 2004 Dec 21 (UTC)

They gave a source, [2]. You can NPOV their claims, but nothing sourced should be removed. Sam Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 20:11, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, not every WWW page featuring someone's pet Conspiracy theory can be taken as source for History. I am asking about serious books of history, written by scholars of known reputation, articles in peer reviewed journals etc. The military history of the Third Reich is a thoroughly covered field, and everything which isn't covered in these sources, has to be treated as rumours.

In addition an EMG (electro-magnetic-gravitc) engine is not only unknown in history, but also contradicts the laws of physics, according to the current understanding of this science.

Pjacobi 21:52, 2004 Dec 21 (UTC)

NPOV if you will, but don't deleted cited info. Sam Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 10:29, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If nobody can give reliable sources for this [3] change, it simply has to go. This is not the Encyclopedia of Rumours. --Pjacobi 12:04, 2004 Dec 23 (UTC)

Sorry, you don't determine what is reliable enough to stay, the wiki process does. Please reduce hubris. Sam Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 17:03, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've cited my sources, the last time we had the dispute tag. I've given examples of the most problematic claims of the recent additions. I'm still convinced that the opinion of internet age conspiracy theory addicts shouldn't be given equal validity to mainstream historic research on the Third Reich. Tachyon driven, electro-magnetic-gravitic flying objects of the Luftwaffe have about the same encyclopedic relevance as the Broccoli Plot cited in Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Giving_"equal_validity" (in the illustration [4]). --Pjacobi

I'm new here, so please forgive any missteps on my part. It seems to me that there's a place (a la the Roswell article) for detailing the claims of relatively popular pseudoscientific / pseudohistorical claims. Given that, moving the Vril Society information into a "Claims in detail" section seems like the right step for framing the information. Ideally, the next step will be to add more sources to this section while ensuring that -- unless verifiable evidence pops up -- it's still framed as a minority / unproven viewpoint. (This seems to be the policy suggested by the Broccoli Plot reference cited above by Pjacobi,) I have, therefore, gone through the article to copyedit and clarify the existing claims in hopes that this will simplify the process of substantive editing and citation. --Lumin 20:36, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

See Talk:Nazi_mysticism#Dino_hyperborean_UFO.27s_in_the_hollow_earth, there are citations aplenty and more on their way if you need them. Sam Spade 20:59, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please cite your sources

To the anonymous contributors and to Sam, if he still defends the current state of the article: Please cite your sources.

I can give you sources, for the "Vril society" being a recent invention, best labelled as Conspiracy Theory.

• The german article de:Vril gives "end of 70s" as most likely date of invention, but I wasn't able to contact the authors yet.
• F. W. Haacks books covering the nazism/occultism/paganism, like "Wotans Wiederkehr" (1981), "Blut-Mythus und Rasse-Religion" (1983), doesn't mention Vril, which is a strong sign that it wasn't widely discussed at that time. Haack wouldn't have missed the oppurtunity to add flying saucers and hollow earth into his books.
• According to http://www.relinfo.ch/thule/infotxt.html the first ever mentioning of the Vril society was in Pauwels, L., Bergier, J. "Aufbruch ins dritte Jahrtausend: von der Zukunft der phantastischen Vernunft". Bern: Scherz, 1967. But at this time the authors were not confident enough to state this a facts, but their writings were later cited as such
• A large popularity boost of this stuff seems to be related to de:Jan Udo Holey, writing under penname Jan van Helsing, and this would mean the 90s. From this point on, the WWW rumour machine took over.

Pjacobi 02:40, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)

I find your "sources" signifigantly less convincing that those of the anon editer. Lack of evidence does not evidence make, my friend. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 11:49, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Not be mentioned by scholars in the field of question is evidence. BTW, I'd prefer to decline any offer of frienship from you. --Pjacobi 16:10, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)

One should recognize sarcasm when it slaps you in the face, my incivil associate. Please keep your skeptic POV out of the article, thanx. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 16:51, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Despite all disagreement, I want to thank you for copyediting and doing the wikilinks in my intro section. Heck, I didn't knew, we indeed have a Jewish World Conspiracy redirect. But as it redirects to Conspiracy theory, in the context of Jan van Helsing, wikilinking The Protocols of the Elders of Zion may be a better fit.

Of course I'm not that glad, that you softened the key issue of historicity to Historical records of the existance of the Vril society in the Third Reich or Weimar Republic are in doubt.. Can you please qualify who has the doubts here? It would be the least to mention that academical historical research has no doubts of the non-existance.

BTW, I didn't see you giving your other sources either. E.g. the nazis' antigravity machine.

If you need further sources for the obvious: On why there is no electro-magnetic-gravitic effect, I'll suggest Weinberg, Steven. The Quantum theory of fields (3 volumes), or just asking one of the other physicits editing here.

Pjacobi 18:48, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)

If you really want to unearth more of the claimed flying saucer drive, my bet is, that the mentionen W.O. Schumann is Winfried Otto Schumann of Schumann resonance fame. --Pjacobi 18:55, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)

And the most Ufo-like developments in the Third Reich recorded my mainstream military history are some prototypes of Arthur Sack which didn't work: http://www.lonlygunmen.de/ufo/weapons/sack/as6.html --Pjacobi 19:08, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)

Good leads. Why you expect me to verify the anons contributions is beyond me, I have perfectly good citations for the content I have contributed, and the fact that I fail to accept your dismissal of the anon's citations (yes, he has provided some) based on your lack of evidence should not suggest I am under obligation to produce corroboration. If you don’t like the anon’s citations, produce better ones, and we can allow the reader to judge which to believe. Of course there is little evidence on these matters, but there is some, and while we should not present that evidence as conclusive or widely accepted, neither shall we diminish its value. I fixed that Jewish World Conspiracy redirect, BTW. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 22:16, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sam Spade, i think you misunderstand the concept of Citation and burden of proof (in its colloquial context). If you personally, wish to stake your reputation on the claims of an anonymous submission, then it is upon you to provide the supporting evidence. On the other hand, Pjacobi is suggesting the removal of an unreferenced claim - made all the more unsupportable since it wildly contradicts known and observable physical laws and realities (like how germans observed a tachyon 50 years ago, when the worlds top scientists are barely able do observe the neutrino with todays far superior technology. Not to mention the fact that anti-gravity is currently the sole domain of Exotic matter, and not tachyons). Glaring scientific inaccuracies acide, it is

simply unconcionable to maintain 'information' that is completely lacking in factual accuracy. In fact, Sam, before you continue to defend these anonymous additions, I suggest you read the page on factual accuracy to familiarise yourself with the guidelines maintained by the wikipedia, and this should help you understand why your current position is untenable. NanotechStudent 06:21, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Removed citations

Siemens-AEG Celestial Navigation Unit KT-P2: http://laesieworks.com/ifo/lib/WW2/Haunebu-pict/Haunebu-xtra-02.jpg Proof positive of disc instrumentation. Note non-Luftwaffe Thule/Vril Sonnenrad in middle of dial. Item was recovered from Sandia Labs in US postwar- by accident.

Hans Coler Magnetstromapparat gravitic battery reproduced for the British postwar. Included in their BIOS Reports as working free-energy machine. SS E-IV unit took this design and turned it into a Konverter for the Haunebu disc Triebwerk: http://members.internettrash.com/medwiss2/erfindungenfreieenergiehechtv016.jpg More solid proof of disc construction.

It seems a bit disingenuous to remove citations after so vigorously demanding them. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 12:02, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I suppose we agree that we disagree what should be considered a source. I'm more thinking of institution like the "Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt" [5], and you are assuming any crank's website will do.

Also instead of all these pictures, some evidence that Schumann worked on anything related to flight machine propulsion would be vastly more signifant. Not to mention any idea, why Schumann's post-war career was rather dull, without any antigravity or free energy machine.

But most importantly, let me repeat the concrete reasons for removal, as already stated in the edit summary:

1. Deep linking an image is against the usage terms of http://laesieworks.com/
2. The Coler link would be better suited to an article covering free energy machines, a.k.a. perpetual motion devices. The link has no significance for the question of the Vril Society's existance.

Pjacobi 12:53, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

Arado

Arado was a fairly normal aircraft factory, besides producing its own models (including the jet Arado Ar 234), it did produce the FW 190. A sizeable portion of the work force were polish slave laborers. Productions facilities were at Brandenburg (Havel), Warnemünde, Anklam, Rathenow, Wittenberge, Neuendorf and Babelsberg. Technical director was Prof. Dipl.-Ing. Walter Blume, who also enjoyed a rather dull after war life, including consulting for the french/german Transall project. So, why didn't he end in Neuschwabenland, Area 51 or Akademgorodok? --Pjacobi 17:23, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

Akademgorodok isn't a closed city like the 2 other named. :) Ъыь 10:36, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Removed citations (II)

I don't believe four deeplinked photographs of one website are legitimate content in article space. I replaced them there with a generic link to http://www.mental-ray.de/

The four links in question are:

• Vri-IL pre- Third Reich poster with Maria Orsic. Can be matched up with other photos of her at Arado-Brandenburg
• http://www.mental-ray.de/Mental-Ray/VrilGeist/Sigrun_3.jpg Claiming to show Vril medium Sigrun in front of a Fw-190 as real historical person at Arado-Brandenburg.
• http://www.mental-ray.de/mental-ray/VrilGeist/Foto_1943.jpg

Look carefully at Haunebu I photo. Car is 1938 Opel Admiral Cabriolet and woman sitting in back with horsetail hairstyle is Sigrun. All Vril circle members had horsetail hairstyles as psychic mediums which was not a popular Nazi hairstyle. Photo taken at Arado-Brandenburg. Drawing in right corner is Vril Chefin (boss) Maria Orsic.

• http://www.mental-ray.de/Mental-Ray/images/Kette.jpg

Late-war Abwehr "Kette" symbol. Note German Adler (Eagle) holding NOT the NSDAP circle but the Sonnerad (Black Sun wheel) over a Kette (chain), signifying the Vril mental psychic chain. This symbol was for the Z-plan which called for the Third Reich to survive in the Zukunft- Future. Vril was part of the Z-Plan and Wilhelm Canaris was hanged for being a traitor after Vril evacuated in March 1945.

Pjacobi 12:04, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

Removed changes

I removed the following unsupported claims:

Historical records of the existance of the Vril society in the Third Reich or Weimar Republic are in doubt due to the fact that Allied Technical Intelligence teams in 1945 were ordered to recover all Vril documentation and hardware left behind and then systematically destroy all remaining traces of both the Vril Gesellschaft and Thule Gesellschaft. Their SS E-IV unit counterpart material was also confiscated by the Western Allies but is classified and compartmentalized seperately under the military file classification system. Since both Vril and Thule predate the military SS Technical Branch, their existence and historical personage records had to be destroyed under Allied occupation since the occult societies represented an extreme threat to de-Nazification if they were allowed to reform as societies. Thule joined Vril in 1919 and firmly established the Nazi Party (NSDAP) in 1920.

If somebody does find them relevant enough to be mentioned, they should be merged into the "claims in detail" paragraph.

Pjacobi 18:27, 2005 Jan 7 (UTC)

And that one:

But this is impossible since Thule was established in 1918 and only joined Vril in 1919. Vril was a circle of psychic women only. Thule was primarily composed of German businessmen with occult beliefs. In 1921, Vril officially became the "All German Society for Metaphysics" while Thule remained the same with strong contacts in the German business community.

Pjacobi 19:41, 2005 Jan 8 (UTC)

---

This article seems to just be translated,very badly, using Google probably, from some German texts. This is not what people should get when they check the links for entries in other languages. We can google-mutilate the original pages ourselves.

Shall I delete the "claims in detail" part, until a better written version emerges?

No, thats the opposite of what were here to do. Clean up, edit, write, don't delete large blocks of text. Sam Spade 22:22, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Outlawed in Germany, Vril has recently re-emerged as CAUSA NOSTRA VRIL operating out of Milan and Venice, Italy. "Causa Nostra" means "Our Cause" and the Vril membership is composed of entirely females, just as the original Gesellschaft was. A current member of Causa Nostra is Heydrich's secretary who is over 90 yrs old. This group claims DIRECT descent from the original Vril Gesellschaft and shows the line of succession after the original Vril Chefin (Bosses) Maria Orsic, Sigrun, and Traute. Gudrun and Heike followed postwar. This group advocates everything the old Vril Gesellschaft did and looks forward to a new Reich (a German/Roman Empire restoration) and claims knowledge of secret technology, especially flight discs and channeled spaceflight. The group has emerged after 60 years to promote Vril's original "Z-Plan" (Zukunft, Future Plan) that was prophesied in 1945. Back in March 1945 Vril prophesied they would return in either 1992/93 or 2004/05. In January 2005 Causa Nostra Vril came back to publically promote their ideas and distribute their story in book form. It is highly significant to note that although they operate out of Italy and have members in the US... their online site and e-mail originate out of Munich where the old Vril Gesellschaft originated from.

• [6]

The contents of this section should be verified and reintegrated within the article. Sam Spade 22:22, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Disagree. The "causa nostra vril" and their website are not notable. And even in conspiracy theory forums criticized for their attempts to make money out of the vril story. --Pjacobi 22:50, 2005 May 5 (UTC)

Link claimed to becopyvio

I've removed (again) a link to website showing substantive excerpts from a book: [7].

Please compare this discussion: [8].

Pjacobi 16:56, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

• Thule Italia - Secret societies

Is not a copyvio, and I challenge your to substantiate your claim. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 17:17, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

The page starts with "Extract from the book SECRET SOCIETIES of jan van hilsing (pseudonym)" (and not even capable of spüelling the author's name correctly, it doesn't look like they have the permission). Then 70k text of the book is presented. --Pjacobi 17:26, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

70k of translated excerpt from the text. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 19:47, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Eytmology

Is it possible that Vril is derived from "virile"? (Apologies if that is mentioned already in the article or here.) --Maru (talk) 04:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Merging Vril Magic Eye

I am preparing to merge in Vril magic eye. Suggestions are welcome. Tom Harrison ^(talk) 04:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Novel title

I moved this comment from the article to here:

Apparently you can't edit the part that I wanted to correct. The entry refers to the Bulwer-Lytton novel _The Coming Race_ as _Vril: The Power of the Coming Race_. The latter title was used for a reprint long after Bulwer-Lytton's death.

Said User:66.78.68.237

The Coming Race says the original title was 'Vril: The Power of the Coming Race.' Tom Harrison ^(talk) 04:28, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

But from the etext

• The Coming Race at Project Gutenberg, it looks like 'The Coming Race' is the original title. Does anyone have authoritative information? Tom Harrison ^(talk) 04:31, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Another request for cites

Many assertions in this article seem to be BS. Can we please more specifically clarify who claimed what when and where, to give our readers a chance to separate facts from nonsense. In particular, the section "Claims in detail" makes many specific claims about aircraft design work, some of which -- for all I know -- may be verified by "offical" sources, while others of which may have come out of a bottle of cheap schnapps. Please, folks, give exact cites, especially when working on controversial topics! -- March 1, 2006

Very unclear and generally poor quality

What is this article about? About a word from a novel? A short definition of what Vril is should be seen in the first paragraph. Instead, we see how popular the novel was, how Tesla was inspired by it and how Vril are also mentioned in another novel. Can anyone summarize in one sentence what Vril is (or what it is believed to be)?

Then, there is this "Some readers believe the book is non-fiction". What readers believe this? Who claimed this? Where are the sources? Sentences like 'some guys think' don't belong into an encyclopedia!!

Then, on Vril society, there is 'Several authors (detailed below) have claimed...', which is also very bad. Somebody has to specify which autor claimed what, not just give 4-5 names of pseudo-scientists and write down the whole mythology.

The Bovril connection

On the Bovril page it states that this foodstuff was named after vril - but there is no matching reference here. Jackiespeel 21:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Willy Ley article

there is talk about an article named "Pseudoscience in Naziland" by a rocket scientist named Willy Ley.. No reference to this article is given, however a seach in google teaches us that this appeared in the widely respected publication "Astounding Science Fiction".. Hardly a solid scientific or journalistic source in my opinion! Jeroenemans 20:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

That's right, but as a matter of fact, Ley is the only independent (i.e. non-neo-nazi, non-esoteric, non-conspiration-theorist) and more or less contemporary source. Therefore, his smugly account is also mentioned in Goodrick-Clarke's "The occult roots of Nazism". I wasn't able to find a copy of his article, but I found the following citation in [9]:

"The next group was literally founded upon a novel. That group which I think called itself Wahrheitsgesellschaft – Society for Truth – and which was more or less localized in Berlin, devoted its spare time looking for Vril. Yes, their convictions were founded upon Bulwer-Lytton's "The Coming Race." They knew that the book was fiction, Bulwer-Lytton had used that device in order to be able to tell the truth about this "power." The subterranean humanity was nonsense, Vril was not. Possibly it had enabled the British, who kept it as a State secret, to amass their colonial empire. Surely the Romans had had it, inclosed in small metal balls, which guarded their homes and were referred to as lares. For reasons which I failed to penetrate, the secret of Vtil could be found by contemplating the structure of an apple, sliced in halves. No, I am not joking, that is what I was told with great solemnity and secrecy. Such a group actually existed; they even got out the first issue of a magazine which was to proclaim their credo." Ley, Willy (1947): Pseudoscience in Naziland. In: Astounding Science Fiction, 39/3 (May 1947), p. 90-98.

Ley's article is listed in his bibliography: [10], p.27 and see also[11]

All in all, it's hard to imagine how these "apple-conjurers" could have had any substantial influence on Nazi policy. Moreover, Ley didn't speak of a "Vril Society" but of a "Society for Truth". 141.2.22.211 12:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

...Vril today?

Erm, this section is a bit confused. Johannes W.F. Seiger has no formal connection with Sealand, only an imagined one. That's not entirely clear from the article wording. Even so the entry draws our attention not towards Vril but to Johannes W.F. Seiger, Neo-Nazis, erm, whatever :) In any event, is it relevant? It happens that http://www.principality-of-sealand.org/ (which is not the official site of Sealand) does babble on about Vril and blithely includes a link to this article and verbatim quote from this section, all signed "May 8th, 2006 , Imperial Commission VRILIA". Wow. None of it should be here should it? Hakluyt bean 21:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

You're right, that part could be deleted. But something else should be added. Seiger's website is the only one providing online-access to the papers of a 'Reichsarbeitsgemeinschaft' from 1929 and 1930. Both papers emphasize the concepts of vril and make use of apple-slices as a kind of model of the world (I can't explain it better, as both papers' line of argumentation is rather confusing). It's therefore possible, that the author of both papers had either contact to the 'society of truth' (as it was mentioned by Ley) or had been even part of it. The original papers can be read in the German National Library in Leipzig and they were edited by Seiger, but seem to be otherwise unchanged by him. As far as I know, the socalled 'Reichsarbeitsgemeinschaft' is now considered in right-wing esoteric circles as the real mccoy, i.e. the "real" "Society of truth" aka "Vril-society". To my opinion, the RAG was an one-person-society, nothing than a vehicle of the author of both papers to enhance his reputation and to gather more attention. Moreover, the partly pacifistic and pro-social opinions which are presented in both papers make it unlikely that their author had close contacts to the NSDAP or had even influenced the Nazis. His worldview didn't fit really well to theirs, although he had also strong national feelings. But nevertheless, the RAG plays a central role in the recent Vril-myth and should therefore be mentioned here (with the necessary care). 141.2.22.211 15:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Fictional Entries

In large portions of this article (particularly Thule, Nazis and Flying Disk parts) it is not made clear what is fictional, alleged, and fact.

It would be very easy to read this and believe that the nazis were developing flying disks, when no citations or sources are listed and it is not made clear the nature of the information given.

Accuracy tag to be added.

We should put a tag of it being a fictional race and maybe add the tag of it being conspiracy related 68.9.223.94 22:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Edit: I doubt the conspiracy area is enough to deem another article but it might be a supsection here and on the listing of Conspiracies have it link to that section. 68.9.223.94 22:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Vril according to the novel

Much of the info covered here has little or nothing to what is said about vril in the novel so i've decided to make a seperate article concerning it(Meaning no secret society,conspiracy or what so ever etc,etc).Also it doesn't explain the uses of vril since the link is lead to the society not to the so called vril energy.Asarhapi 15:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggest merging The Coming Race into Vril

I suggest merging the similar but much shorter page The Coming Race into the article on Vril. Cardamon 09:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This article concerns the nineteenth century book whereas the other page concerns the theories that have grow up around the Vril concept. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.94.150.165 (talk • contribs) .Nov 20 2006

Both articles discuss both the book, and the people who have taken the book seriously. Both articles currently devote less than half their length to the book itself. This article currently devotes a lower proportion of its space to the book than does The Coming Race. Cardamon 20:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

For a somehow similar reason I had suggested to merge lost lands with lost continents. I people would know that vril ist not real, but based on a novel, it might keep them from unnecessary speculation. --Zara1709 07:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Could someone verify/falsify the 'Claims in detail'?

I copied the names of the authors who have been building up the myth of the Bril-society from the german article, but I would consider it to boring to actually read the occultist-nonsense these people write. So if anyone has read some of their books... Zara1709 13:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Recent changes

I incorporated the section from Nazi mysticism into the article. That has however not improved the fact that the article is full of (not marked) unsourced statements and minor factual errors. I will probably read the Occult Roots of Nazism again, maybe I can than improve some parts. -Zara1709 04:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Advertisement

I don't think it's appropriate to highlight one publisher's edition of this book, when it is neither the first, nor by any means the (or even an) authoritative version of the text in question. I think it should be removed.

I will however put external links to all the currently in-print editions available online. --70.53.122.55 15:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Very Poor Quality Article

This is a very poor quality article... the portion focused on the book is particularly bad.

There is a lot of conjecture and interpretation presented as though it figured prominently in the book.

For example, there is no outright claim in the book that the Vril-ya are descendents of Atlantis. There is no claim that the Vril-ya are Aryan, in fact in the book the Vril-ya believe themselves descended from frogs. The only instance of the term "aryan" being used, is with regards to the language--and it is a single sentence... an ever so passing a mention.

In fact, I highly question whether most of the contributers to this article ever read the book.

It would be best if the quality of the portions relating to the book could be fixed up, and once voluminous enough segregated into their own article. Because the truth is, that nazi mysticism and aryanism and so on and so forth have next to nothing whatsoever to do with the book. They are all subsequent interpretations that are very weakly (if at all) supported by the text. --Denever6 18:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I am quite aware of the poor quality, especially when it comes to the novel. I started reading the online version of it, and one can easily see that the section on this badly needs to be improved. Before I started editing here, there were actually three articles: Vril, The Coming Race and a section in Nazi mysticism. None of them really established the proper context (originated from a novel, conspiracy theory, etc...) My primary intention was then to get all the pseudohistorical claims out. You are completely right, that all the "all subsequent interpretations that are very weakly (if at all) supported by the text", but I think it will be rather difficult to separate the book from its interpretation. However, if you want to improve it and then still think, that the article shoud be spilt up, I couldn't possible disagree. Please go ahead! -Zara1709 20:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I did improve on it a little bit. Hope that others who have read the book will take the beginnings I added even further. I will try to do more work with time. I don't think there should be a separate article for the book until it is of sufficient quality (and length) though. So for now, leaving it all in one is fine. --Denever6 21:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The Vril-ya are clearly stated to be Aryans in Chapter XXVI. Here is the relevant passage:

"I arrived at the conviction that this people--though originally not only of our human race, but, as seems to me clear by the roots of their language, descended from the same ancestors as the great Aryan family, from which in varied streams has flowed the dominant civilisation of the world; and having, according to their myths and their history, passed through phases of society familiar to ourselves,--had yet now developed into a distinct species with which it was impossible that any community in the upper world could amalgamate: And that if they ever emerged from these nether recesses into the light of day, they would, according to their own traditional persuasions of their ultimate destiny, destroy and replace our existent varieties of man."

I made reference to this passage back when parts of this article were in Nazi mysticism. I would recommend reinstating it, because it is crucial to understanding how the book has come to be used in Aryanist occultism. The Vril-ya are clearly represented here as a superhuman Aryan master race of potential conquerors. Not just the roots of the language, but the people themselves, are described as having descended from Aryan ancestors. Linguists may quibble with this identification of language with race (though a number of them now think that correlation between race and language is the rule, and disagreement, the exception). That is not the point, however. The point is that the author evidently believes that race and language go together. Gnostrat 00:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

My mistake appears to only be the mistaken suggestion that the narrator makes no connection to race. The passage you quoted, however, does indeed factually state only that the language is Aryan, and the people are therefore likewise assumed to be. That, however, is contradicted by the "descent from frogs" belief of the Vril-ya.

As to the whole superman thing... I see your point, but still hold your interpretation to be just that. An interpretation. And one that I submit is likely coloured by beliefs and literature that came decades after this book was written and first published.

Overall, I think we can say that the **narrator** believes in the Aryan connection--whether or not the author does is of little consequence, unless you categorize the book as non-fiction--but the Vril-ya (who are clearly noted as being far more knowledgeable on all things, save the upper world) openly contradict him by ascribing their own genesis to evolution from frogs.

Are we in agreement on the points, as stated in my immediately preceding paragraph? If so, something like that could be written up. Still, I feel it is relevant that the direct "Aryan" connection identified by the author is with the language, and (albeit clearly mistakenly, I think) only then and thus with the people--not the other way around. --Denever6 01:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sorry let me add... definitely, I agree, my removal and replacement needs to be adjusted. Though, as noted, I do not agree that it is accurate in its original form. --Denever6 01:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Let me know whether the Aryan subsection is now acceptable to you. After re-reading again, I note that the quoted passage does not even say that he Vril-ya language is of Aryan origin--merely that it descends from the same source as Aryan languages. In essence, it would be like saying that Russian descend from the same source as Germanic Languages. True. But not because Russian is Germanic--but because both Germanic Languages and Russian are Indo-European languages.

Am I making sense? --Denever6 01:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

You're making perfect sense :) B-L probably meant that the Vril-ya language belonged to the Indo-European family (as we now call it) but it's possible to read it as a sister language to IE. Although not many linguists were thinking along those lines back then (whereas today we have a number of such hypotheses under debate).

The tone is a little on the polemical side but I'm in basic agreement with the rewrite. There is an ambiguity in the passage, I would say. Do "the same ancestors" mean linguistic or biological ancestors? Apparently both, and that's the problem. Which meaning is primary? The narrator himself doesn't seem to appreciate the difference and that's not really surprising. The argument from language to race was widely and popularly applied in B-L's day. The linguist and folklorist Max Müller would have emphatically disagreed with the logic, but he himself had thoughtlessly encouraged it.

I think we could say that the primary datum is the language, but the narrator is drawing from it an inference about the ancestry of the people themselves. Today, of course, we would be more cautious and simply say that they originated from an upper-world people who at some stage had inherited or acquired an IE-related language somehow. It might be worth mentioning that the novel speaks of colour variations among the Vril-ya! (Or maybe it's in the article and I've missed it.)

I haven't found the frogs yet, but I can't see that they contradict the Aryan connection. The Vril-ya know they're descended from surface-world people, but they also hold a theory of evolution from amphibians. So do we.

On the question of when exactly the connection was first made between an "Aryan Master Race" and Vril, the book was certainly being used as part of a mythos of Aryan supermen within a few years of publication. Jacolliot & Blavatsky started the ball rolling with their descriptions of "Hidden Masters" living in networks of tunnels, but their subterranean people were benevolent sages. This was always presented as traditional Hindu-Buddhist lore, with the implication that B-L had simply recycled much older legends. Blavatsky at least pointed out that The Coming Race was a fiction, but she knew of B-L's occult interests and claimed that he based Vril on a real force.

I take it we can discount the Vril Society claims, so I'd guess it wasn't until the 60s that some Aryan-type occultists were actually basing agendas for world conquest on the claim that "Master Race" types from the depths were supplying them with the formula for death rays! In his book The Mysterious Unknown, Robert Charroux described a Grand Lodge of Vril along these lines. That might be worth a reference too. Gnostrat 10:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Very happy to note that we are largely in agreement. The things you wrote are very enlightening, and definitely call for some additions to the Aryan race subsection. I will make them sometime today or tomorrow, unless you do so before.

The portion on the frogs:

"Pardon me," answered Aph-Lin: "in what we call the Wrangling or Philosophical Period of History, which was at its height about seven thousand years ago, there was a very distinguished naturalist, who proved to the satisfaction of numerous disciples such analogical and anatomical agreements in structure between an An and a Frog, as to show that out of the one must have developed the other. They had some diseases in common; they were both subject to the same parasitical worms in the intestines; and, strange to say, the An has, in his structure, a swimming-bladder, no longer of any use to him, but which is a rudiment that clearly proves his descent from a Frog. Nor is there any argument against this theory to be found in the relative difference of size, for there are still existent in our world Frogs of a size and stature not inferior to our own, and many thousand years ago they appear to have been still larger."

I understand your point that we also trace our ancestry from amphibians... but the above passage (as well as numerous other ones before and after it in the text) left me with the suggestion that the Vril-ya scientifically consider the frog in general and in one specific species what we consider apes and chimpanzees in relation to us respectively.

In essence, they appear to believe that their most recent non-Vril-ya ancestors were frogs. Much as we believe that our most recent non-Human ancestors were apes.

This book is even more fascinating than I initially realized. There is a lot of subtlety to it, and even more to its correct inrepretation. --Denever6 14:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed "The Coming Race (Book Only)" Page

I would welcome edits, additions, and comments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Denever6/The_Coming_Race

I think once all the sections and subsections have some material, it might make a worthy book-only page.

I am of the opinion that such a page would need to be rigorously monitored, to ensure that no material gets into it which is unrelated or contradictory to the contents of the book. (as much of this article currently is--albeit, being called "Vril", for understandable reasons.)

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and edits! --Denever6 18:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Deleted Material on Nazi mysticism

I have deleted the following 4 paragraphs from the "Occultism and Nazism" section of the article:

It has been convincingly argued that Hitler was likely to have met Lanz von Liebenfels while in Vienna and that he was a constant reader of his magazine 'Ostara'. And as soon as he came into contact with the NSDAP in Munich, he also came into contact with the Thule society.

Further evidence for occult influence is shown by private memos and letters of Himmler and Bormann, as well as the recollections of Hitler's friends August Kubizek, Josef Greiner and Hermann Rauschning.

However, while certain societies really did exist, like the ONT by Lanz von Liebenfels, they were by far not powerful enough to have any influence on the Nazi Party or the SS. The occult influences on the SS originated from Himmler himself and Karl Maria Wiligut.

After 1941, most 'secret societies' were officially dissolved by the Gestapo. These measures were most probably the result of the general Nazi policy of suppressing lodge organizations and esoteric groups.

My reasons for this deletion are that:

1. This seems more like speculation about societies might or might not have existed than encyclopedic fact.
2. The topic of discussion has wandered far from the novel or even from Vril
3. There is a Nazi Mysticism article in which this stuff could be more appropriately put.

Cardamon 10:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Replies:

1. No, this is fact. I can instantly quote three reliable authors (Godrick-Clarke, Wilfired Daim, Harald Strohm) that attest this, and if you need I could find 10 more. Especially in the English speaking world there seems to be a vast amount of populist literature that exploits this theme for occultist speculation, but it is a field of serious study.
2. Not my fault, and neither Bulwer-Lytton's. If Wilhelm Landig wants his Ufos that evacuated Hitler to the South Pole to be propelled by Vril e.g., and there seem to be more people reading this stuff, than people reading the novel by Bulwer-Lytton, you have to bring this into the article.
3. The sub-section in question was part of a section on Vril in the Nazi Mysticism article in the first place. I did mention that in the edit summary, when I moved it here, didn't I? I probably thought that I would work on the Nazi Mystizism article next then, so I did not bother to see if any of the material ought to be moved back. -Zara1709 23:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Animated Cover Graphic

Is it just me, or is the animated cycling of the various covers both (a) too rapid and (b) distracting? Is it common practice to jam in as many variant covers in this way, or has someone made an unfortunate decision here? D.brodale 05:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I know this comment is quite old, but I agree whole-heartedly that the animated .GIF used in the infobox is far too distracting. I seem to recall some mention on Wikipedia not to use animated .GIFs as the main image for that exact reason, but I'm currently unable to locate that exact statement. If should definitely be changed to a static image or just removed. The argument that it prevents bias against one particular edition is ludicrous - this is the only novel infobox with an animated gif I've ever seen in all of Wikipedia and I've yet to prefer the first edition of, say, the Great Gatsby over more recent ones. ～藍子talk contrib 12:37, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Date of first publication

Every source I've seen says that The Coming Race was first published in 1871, yet this article says it was first published in 1870. Which is correct? Kaldari (talk) 21:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

DEFAULTSORT

Is the default sort key really necessary? Personally, I think that if anyone wants the article to be sorted under the title "The Coming Race", then the article itself should be renamed. Otherwise, I think that the article should be sorted under its current title. If no-one seriously objects, I might remove the default sort key after about a week or so. Comments welcomed. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 00:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Advertisement in Article

Why is Wikipedia advertising the Hesperus edition of the book, instead of listing all (or at least several) editions currently print... or remaining mum on the subject altogether?

In the info box, the ISBN field shows no ISBN number, even though obviously there are several.

The article should either provide information for all (or at least multiple) in-print editions of the book, or none of them.

Unless there is a reason why Hesperus is due the privilege of being the only one featured in the article. --198.103.167.20 (talk) 15:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Vril Society

There's apparently no Wiki entry for Vril, the German occult secret society that presupposed the Hitler's rise to power and the Nazi party. Does anyone mind if I rename this to "The Coming Race" and create a disambuation redirect so we can facilitate a historical Vril entry?

Thanks, --UnicornTapestry (talk) 01:30, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I DO MINT. That Vril society is an invention of Le Matin des Magiciens. You are free to expand this article so that it covers the development of this modern myth better, but if you really believe that there was a "German occult secret society that presupposed the Hitler's rise to power" you're just going to be disappointed, because I've got the academic sources that say that there wasn't, and I've already spent a lot of time cleaning up these topics.Zara1709 (talk) 11:10, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Proving a negative is always a challenge, but I'm willing to listen. Are you saying the Vril Society did not exist in Germany prior to Hitler's rise to power and Hitler, Borman, and Hesse were not members?

What are the sources and credentials? Thank you.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 14:37, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

First and foremost check Appendix E of The Occult Roots of Nazism. A Vril Society that had any influence on Nazism did not exist, or at least there are not traces of it whatsoever. There was only a small and insignificant occult study group that Willy Ley mentioned. Zara1709 (talk) 09:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Zara. I'll ask my library for it. I remember seeing a documentary on the History Channel, I believe, connecting Hitler and friends with the Vril Society.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 19:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

"Science" of Vril Section

It would seem that this section is unnecessarily harsh with its treatment of the material, repeatedly claiming that the author had a severely misguided understanding of contemporary science. The section then goes into detail disproving the "science" described in the book, which as it has already been stated is a work of science fiction.

While this theme is certainly worth a mention, it could be done in a decidedly more NPOV way. And the part explaining in detail why a fountain of naphtha would be unpractical and dangerous is almost laughable in the seriousness of its criticism, especially when it can be inferred that Lytton was making reference to a magical substance also known as greek fire. 213.37.229.232 (talk) 22:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Original research

Tag added per comments above. These edits by Hhighwater (talk · contribs) added extensive original research to the Analysis section. I'd just revert, except there appears to be some useful material. 86.140.107.9 (talk) 00:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC)